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Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Sun May 13, 2012 9:50 pm

OptiMagnus wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Am I the only one who noticed we've had two threads now about liking RotF that haven't devolved into a troll filled flame fest?

I think the world might really be ending this year, and this is a sign. :-?

Revenge of the Fallen is the worst movie ever made and all of you who like it are mentally devolved and should be ashamed of how low you've gone to enjoy it. Oh, yeah, and you're also not a true fan of Transformers since you like such an abomination that has RUINED Transformers FOREVER.

I just saved the world.
You baited my smartass tendencies way too much with that one.


World saved! :michaelbay:

SlyTF1 wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Am I the only one who noticed we've had two threads now about liking RotF that haven't devolved into a troll filled flame fest?

I think the world might really be ending this year, and this is a sign. :-?


No, scientists proved the 2012 theory wrong...


That and common sense. ;)

Back on topic: I'm hoping in TF4 that we move on to Unicron as a recurring enemy. The Fallen's failure to spread entropy by destroying stars would sort of tic the big guy off a little. Might even let him come back if Unicron decides he's worth salvaging. While a menacing character I felt he was a bit underplayed in the film's story, but I blame the writer's strike for that. It's not like other popular film trilogies don't have big bads who sit around and do nothing and get punked easily in a matter of minutes *cough*EmperorPalpatine*cough*.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby ReDPATH » Fri May 18, 2012 11:38 am

ROTF easily has the most replay value of the 3 movies.

Its better paced than TF 2007 but its comedic undertones keep it from being a better 'film' per say than DOTM.

For every key moment in ROTF which were pretty big...

- Optimus dying
- The Fallens Arrival/Invasion
- Sam dying
- The Final scenic Battle in Egypt

We had to endure

- Sams mom and her college adventure
- The Twins just being force fed fodder stereotypes
- Simmons and his scrotum reference and underwear scene
- Random dog humping

And the good comedy elements didn't really overcome those

- Wheelie

Granted DOTM had that dude from Hangover whom almost single handily ruins the first half of DOTM along with just Sam being there with no purpose in DOTM. Like they had no idea what to do in rewrites when they wrote Megan out and Rosie in. I get the sense the first half of DOTM would have been much better with the original script with Megan/Mikeala in place.

We wouldn't have had to sit through the sell job of Sam/Carly.

But the second half of DOTM did feel a bit more like a Transformers film with Iron Hide dying and most of the original G1 Cons in action.

Megs
Shockwave
Soundwave
Starscream
Laserbeak

Still even with its all of its flaws. ROTF easily has the most replay value of the 3.

Heres how I'd rank them.

In terms of replay value

1. ROTF
2. TF 2007
3. DOTM

In terms of film quality

1. TF 2007
2. DOTM
3. ROTF

ROTF would have arguably been the best of both categories had it keep its dark moments and offset them with reflection rather than stupid comedy. JMO
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby SlyTF1 » Fri May 18, 2012 12:57 pm

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ReDPATH wrote:ROTF easily has the most replay value of the 3 movies.

Its better paced than TF 2007 but its comedic undertones keep it from being a better 'film' per say than DOTM.

For every key moment in ROTF which were pretty big...

- Optimus dying
- The Fallens Arrival/Invasion
- Sam dying
- The Final scenic Battle in Egypt

We had to endure

- Sams mom and her college adventure
- The Twins just being force fed fodder stereotypes
- Simmons and his scrotum reference and underwear scene
- Random dog humping


The twins where not stereotypes because they where not portraying a certain group of people.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby OptiMagnus » Fri May 18, 2012 2:20 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:The twins where not stereotypes because they where not portraying a certain group of people.

That is completely true, unless there happen to be races of humans with neon green and reddish-brown and grey colored skin types that have been previously labelled with the same behaviors.
I'm just not sure how they can be stereotyping people when they are alien robots.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Burn » Fri May 18, 2012 2:55 pm

OptiMagnus wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:The twins where not stereotypes because they where not portraying a certain group of people.

That is completely true, unless there happen to be races of humans with neon green and reddish-brown and grey colored skin types that have been previously labelled with the same behaviors.


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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby BeastProwl » Fri May 18, 2012 4:37 pm

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Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Fri May 18, 2012 4:40 pm

BeastProwl wrote:Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.


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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby BeastProwl » Fri May 18, 2012 5:19 pm

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Capt.Failure wrote:
BeastProwl wrote:Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.


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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby SlyTF1 » Fri May 18, 2012 9:13 pm

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BeastProwl wrote:Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.


I heard a lot of people complaining about Jazz in the first movie the same way they did about the twins.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby OptiMagnus » Fri May 18, 2012 11:06 pm

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Burn wrote:
OptiMagnus wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:The twins where not stereotypes because they where not portraying a certain group of people.

That is completely true, unless there happen to be races of humans with neon green and reddish-brown and grey colored skin types that have been previously labelled with the same behaviors.


Tanorexic Kardashians.

Didn't think about that...but you're right. :lol:

BeastProwl wrote:Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.

I agree 100% here. I know people of all different races who act like the twins. Yes, they may be "ghetto" stereotypes, but that doesn't imply one race over another. In fact, if one is offended by the twins being racist because of the way they act, they would first have to associate a certain race with their behavior. Therefore, it is actually racist to associate certain behaviors with one race, because it assumes EVERYONE, or the majority of a race acts the same way.
And calling Jazz racist is definitely a stretch. I haven't met any naturally silver-colored people yet.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Fri May 18, 2012 11:41 pm

OptiMagnus wrote:
Burn wrote:
OptiMagnus wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:The twins where not stereotypes because they where not portraying a certain group of people.

That is completely true, unless there happen to be races of humans with neon green and reddish-brown and grey colored skin types that have been previously labelled with the same behaviors.


Tanorexic Kardashians.

Didn't think about that...but you're right. :lol:

BeastProwl wrote:Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.

I agree 100% here. I know people of all different races who act like the twins. Yes, they may be "ghetto" stereotypes, but that doesn't imply one race over another. In fact, if one is offended by the twins being racist because of the way they act, they would first have to associate a certain race with their behavior. Therefore, it is actually racist to associate certain behaviors with one race, because it assumes EVERYONE, or the majority of a race acts the same way.
And calling Jazz racist is definitely a stretch. I haven't met any naturally silver-colored people yet.


Pretty much this. People are quick to confuse culture with race. I also found the cries of antisemitism hilarious. To sum up that point some people believed the film was antisemitic because there was no mention of Israel or the Israeli army in the film's latter half. To that I pose a question:

Which is worse? To not mention a nation/group of people in the general area or for that group to DEMAND recognition, even when it may not be necessary?

I will put myself in the line of fire and say that no, Israel was not important enough to the overall events for them to get special mention just because they're in the general area. Egypt and Jordan were the two countries were these events took place, and that's all there is to it.

There's a term I use to describe these kinds of criticisms: Grasping at straws.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby njb902 » Sat May 19, 2012 1:01 am

Capt.Failure wrote:
OptiMagnus wrote:
Burn wrote:
OptiMagnus wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:The twins where not stereotypes because they where not portraying a certain group of people.

That is completely true, unless there happen to be races of humans with neon green and reddish-brown and grey colored skin types that have been previously labelled with the same behaviors.


Tanorexic Kardashians.

Didn't think about that...but you're right. :lol:

BeastProwl wrote:Who exactly was offended by the twins? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but how does one go about being offended by them being all ghetto? I mean, I know SO many people who act that way, and they are all different colors, so this cant be a racist thing. It's the way they act. Any person of any color skin can act any way they want to, so to be offended by such a thing is just dumb.
I didn't hear ANYONE cry foul over how Jazz acted in the first movie. He was toned down in comparison, sure, but it's the same damn thing.

I agree 100% here. I know people of all different races who act like the twins. Yes, they may be "ghetto" stereotypes, but that doesn't imply one race over another. In fact, if one is offended by the twins being racist because of the way they act, they would first have to associate a certain race with their behavior. Therefore, it is actually racist to associate certain behaviors with one race, because it assumes EVERYONE, or the majority of a race acts the same way.
And calling Jazz racist is definitely a stretch. I haven't met any naturally silver-colored people yet.


Pretty much this. People are quick to confuse culture with race. I also found the cries of antisemitism hilarious. To sum up that point some people believed the film was antisemitic because there was no mention of Israel or the Israeli army in the film's latter half. To that I pose a question:

Which is worse? To not mention a nation/group of people in the general area or for that group to DEMAND recognition, even when it may not be necessary?

I will put myself in the line of fire and say that no, Israel was not important enough to the overall events for them to get special mention just because they're in the general area. Egypt and Jordan were the two countries were these events took place, and that's all there is to it.

There's a term I use to describe these kinds of criticisms: Grasping at straws.


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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Sat May 19, 2012 4:05 am

njb902 wrote:careful you may incur the wrath of Rush Limbaugh's ghost!


He died? Damn, I had a bottle of very nice champagne to crack open for the occasion. :-(
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Autobot032 » Sat May 19, 2012 4:58 am

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Capt.Failure wrote:
njb902 wrote:careful you may incur the wrath of Rush Limbaugh's ghost!


He died? Damn, I had a bottle of very nice champagne to crack open for the occasion. :-(


No... http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/

He's still very much alive.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Rushie » Sat May 19, 2012 5:45 am

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Capt.Failure wrote:Pretty much this. People are quick to confuse culture with race. I also found the cries of antisemitism hilarious. To sum up that point some people believed the film was antisemitic because there was no mention of Israel or the Israeli army in the film's latter half.


Wow, I remember the complaints about the first film about "the black robot died!" I thought the black robot was Ironhide? :-?

As for Israel, I believe the reason people complained about that not because it's in the general area, but actually between Egypt and Jordan. So Sam's team must've passed through Israel in order to get from Giza to Petra. And since Jordan was mentioned in name and represented with a (pathetically small) air force, that gives Israel reason to want in.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Cthulhunicron » Sat May 19, 2012 3:21 pm

I still think it's the worst of the trilogy. The twins just ruin the movie for me. I don't see why it would have been so difficult to focus more on characters like Sideswipe and Arcee.

And it really shows that they were having script problems when they were making this film. The story is a convoluted mess.

I know someone's probably going to reply and say "just watch the damn movie, there are no plot holes!" Let's look at what the movie tells us: There were 13 Primes who presided over harvesting suns, using the Matrix of Leadership. The Primes can teleport across great distances and only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime. One of the Primes goes against their law of protecting life and tries to build a solar harvester on Earth. The Primes intervene, a battle is fought between the Fallen and his followers (the early Decepticons) and the other primes and their followers (early Autobots). The Primes steal the Matrix back from the Fallen, go into a cave and blow themselves up to hide the Matrix.

There's never really been a satisfactory answer as to why the Primes needed to "entomb" the Matrix on Earth in the first place. I mean...they can all teleport, and the Matrix is vital to Cybertron's survival, so instead of blowing themselves up in a cave to hide it from the Fallen, why not just teleport back to Cybertron and hide it there? Furthermore, they outnumber the Fallen 12 to 1, so why didn't they just kill him and the Decepticons?

The IDW comics shed some light on this, though I don't think it's a good sign when you need to read the comics in order to make sense of the movies. The Prime is portrayed as being vastly more powerful than the other Primes, due to his conquering other worlds and assimilating their technology and knowledge. Also the Primes attempt to reason with him at first, and the Fallen just slaughters them. The last one gathers up the collected energy of the other Primes and uses it to imprison the Fallen in his sarcophagus. So....at this point, I don't see why he doesn't just grab the Matrix and go back to Cybertron.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Sat May 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Rushie wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Pretty much this. People are quick to confuse culture with race. I also found the cries of antisemitism hilarious. To sum up that point some people believed the film was antisemitic because there was no mention of Israel or the Israeli army in the film's latter half.


Wow, I remember the complaints about the first film about "the black robot died!" I thought the black robot was Ironhide? :-?

As for Israel, I believe the reason people complained about that not because it's in the general area, but actually between Egypt and Jordan. So Sam's team must've passed through Israel in order to get from Giza to Petra. And since Jordan was mentioned in name and represented with a (pathetically small) air force, that gives Israel reason to want in.


Actually that was a scouting force. They weren't sending in the cavalry, but a small scout group to find out what was going on. Their satellites were blind after all. With the scout force shot down they didn't get any intel until the drone showed them what was really going on.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Rushie » Sat May 19, 2012 4:47 pm

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What makes that funny though, is one character's (Simmons? Leo? don't remember) glorious shout "Here come the JORDANIANS!!!" as if the day was saved right there. Cue two helicopters getting blasted ten seconds in.

Small question, was the Tomb of the Primes the same temple where the Holy Grail was found in The Last Crusade? It sure looks the same but I believe Petra is home to several carved out temples.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Sat May 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Rushie wrote:What makes that funny though, is one character's (Simmons? Leo? don't remember) glorious shout "Here come the JORDANIANS!!!" as if the day was saved right there. Cue two helicopters getting blasted ten seconds in.

Small question, was the Tomb of the Primes the same temple where the Holy Grail was found in The Last Crusade? It sure looks the same but I believe Petra is home to several carved out temples.


To be fair if I were in their situation I'd have been overjoyed to see any form of backup too. And sometimes that just happens, you ride into the battle only to be shot down, especially against highly advanced war robots from another world you aren't equipped to fight. :P

To answer your second question: Yes Petra was used as the tomb that held the Holy Grail in The Last Crusade, however it was supposed to be a different location if I recall correctly. Even if they aren't these are obviously two separate film universes.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Sat May 19, 2012 6:10 pm

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Cthulhunicron wrote:I still think it's the worst of the trilogy. The twins just ruin the movie for me. I don't see why it would have been so difficult to focus more on characters like Sideswipe and Arcee.

And it really shows that they were having script problems when they were making this film. The story is a convoluted mess.

I know someone's probably going to reply and say "just watch the damn movie, there are no plot holes!" Let's look at what the movie tells us: There were 13 Primes who presided over harvesting suns, using the Matrix of Leadership. The Primes can teleport across great distances and only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime.

They never said that, the Fallen said only a prime can defeat him. There is a difference between defeating and killing. Take the forest battle for example, Optimus was beating Megatron, Starscream, and Grindor at the same time. It was only by sneaking up on him that Megatron was able to kill him. He couldn't defeat him, but he did kill him.

One of the Primes goes against their law of protecting life and tries to build a solar harvester on Earth. The Primes intervene, a battle is fought between the Fallen and his followers (the early Decepticons) and the other primes and their followers (early Autobots). The Primes steal the Matrix back from the Fallen, go into a cave and blow themselves up to hide the Matrix.

There's never really been a satisfactory answer as to why the Primes needed to "entomb" the Matrix on Earth in the first place. I mean...they can all teleport, and the Matrix is vital to Cybertron's survival, so instead of blowing themselves up in a cave to hide it from the Fallen, why not just teleport back to Cybertron and hide it there? Furthermore, they outnumber the Fallen 12 to 1, so why didn't they just kill him and the Decepticons?

Jetfire said the Fallen was stronger than all his brothers. Plus we don't know how many followers they had. The Fallen could have enough followers to outnumber the other primes and their followers 10 to 1. Besides, hiding the Matrix on Earth worked, the Fallen never found it.
The IDW comics shed some light on this, though I don't think it's a good sign when you need to read the comics in order to make sense of the movies. The Prime is portrayed as being vastly more powerful than the other Primes, due to his conquering other worlds and assimilating their technology and knowledge. Also the Primes attempt to reason with him at first, and the Fallen just slaughters them. The last one gathers up the collected energy of the other Primes and uses it to imprison the Fallen in his sarcophagus. So....at this point, I don't see why he doesn't just grab the Matrix and go back to Cybertron.

I've never read the comics, every time they try to expand what happens after the movies the next one contradicts it. I just go by what happens in the movies, they tell you everything you need to know.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Cthulhunicron » Sat May 19, 2012 8:34 pm

I always assumed Megatron was able to kill Optimus because Optimus was only partially descended from the Primes. I'm not sure what you mean by he was killed but not defeated. How is killing someone not defeating them??? True, Optimus eventually comes back to life and is victorious, but if Sam had never managed to find the Matrix, he would have remained dead.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby SlyTF1 » Sat May 19, 2012 8:49 pm

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Cthulhunicron wrote:I always assumed Megatron was able to kill Optimus because Optimus was only partially descended from the Primes. I'm not sure what you mean by he was killed but not defeated. How is killing someone not defeating them??? True, Optimus eventually comes back to life and is victorious, but if Sam had never managed to find the Matrix, he would have remained dead.


The only reason The Fallen couldn't be beaten was because he was one of the original Primes.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Capt.Failure » Sat May 19, 2012 9:40 pm

SlyTF1 wrote:
Cthulhunicron wrote:I always assumed Megatron was able to kill Optimus because Optimus was only partially descended from the Primes. I'm not sure what you mean by he was killed but not defeated. How is killing someone not defeating them??? True, Optimus eventually comes back to life and is victorious, but if Sam had never managed to find the Matrix, he would have remained dead.


The only reason The Fallen couldn't be beaten was because he was one of the original Primes.


Pretty much this. Optimus is several generations removed from the Primes, but has their bloodline so to speak. The Fallen was the genuine article.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby orangeitis » Mon May 21, 2012 12:18 am

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I was under the assumption that The Fallen was the only one that had the "no one but a prime can defeat me" thing.

Also, killing ≠ defeating. Optimus Prime hardly EVER gets defeated when he dies. Was it a win for the battle for Megs in RoTF? Sure. But he didn't defeat Optimus. And I doubt anyone can say that Optimus didn't win in the Battle of Autobot City in the 80s movie, and he obviously died from that.

Cthulhunicron wrote:I know someone's probably going to reply and say "just watch the damn movie, there are no plot holes!" Let's look at what the movie tells us: There were 13 Primes who presided over harvesting suns, using the Matrix of Leadership. The Primes can teleport across great distances and only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime. One of the Primes goes against their law of protecting life and tries to build a solar harvester on Earth. The Primes intervene, a battle is fought between the Fallen and his followers (the early Decepticons) and the other primes and their followers (early Autobots). The Primes steal the Matrix back from the Fallen, go into a cave and blow themselves up to hide the Matrix.
There was nothing said about explosions.
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Re: Am I the Only Fan That Likes Revenge of The Fallen?

Postby Cthulhunicron » Mon May 21, 2012 8:36 am

wow, way to split hairs and totally miss the point of what I'm getting at.

True, Prime's death at the Battle of Autobot City was a sacrifice that lead to the Autobots being victorious. However, Prime himself was still defeated. It's all about context. If Megatron kills Prime and Sam never finds the Matrix, then Prime is dead and he is defeated. You can defeat someone without killing them, but I don't see how you can kill someone without defeating them. I mean unless you want to get into abstract concepts of martyrdom, etc. and say that "well I killed him but his ideology survived with his followers, yada yada" but that's not what we're talking about. They say in ROTF that only a Prime can defeat the Fallen. Since I'm a crazy person, I took that to mean that only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime.

There was nothing said about explosions.


In the flashback, they show the Primes going into a cave and there's an explosion, if I recall. If not, I apologize profusely. The point remains...they grabbed the Matrix, committed suicide somehow, and this causes the Matrix to be buried under their bodies in a cave. If they took this course of action, the situation must have been pretty desperate. The Fallen must have still been alive and I'm assuming he still had a group of Decepticon soldiers with him. Why didn't they just stay on Earth and look for it? In 10,000 years they couldn't have found it? Why leave a planet that has a solar harvester and a Matrix to go back to Cybertron and fight over its last remaining bits of Energon?
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