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I still think it's the worst of the trilogy. The twins just ruin the movie for me. I don't see why it would have been so difficult to focus more on characters like Sideswipe and Arcee.

And it really shows that they were having script problems when they were making this film. The story is a convoluted mess.

I know someone's probably going to reply and say "just watch the damn movie, there are no plot holes!" Let's look at what the movie tells us: There were 13 Primes who presided over harvesting suns, using the Matrix of Leadership. The Primes can teleport across great distances and only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime. One of the Primes goes against their law of protecting life and tries to build a solar harvester on Earth. The Primes intervene, a battle is fought between the Fallen and his followers (the early Decepticons) and the other primes and their followers (early Autobots). The Primes steal the Matrix back from the Fallen, go into a cave and blow themselves up to hide the Matrix.

There's never really been a satisfactory answer as to why the Primes needed to "entomb" the Matrix on Earth in the first place. I mean...they can all teleport, and the Matrix is vital to Cybertron's survival, so instead of blowing themselves up in a cave to hide it from the Fallen, why not just teleport back to Cybertron and hide it there? Furthermore, they outnumber the Fallen 12 to 1, so why didn't they just kill him and the Decepticons?

The IDW comics shed some light on this, though I don't think it's a good sign when you need to read the comics in order to make sense of the movies. The Prime is portrayed as being vastly more powerful than the other Primes, due to his conquering other worlds and assimilating their technology and knowledge. Also the Primes attempt to reason with him at first, and the Fallen just slaughters them. The last one gathers up the collected energy of the other Primes and uses it to imprison the Fallen in his sarcophagus. So....at this point, I don't see why he doesn't just grab the Matrix and go back to Cybertron.

Rushie wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:Pretty much this. People are quick to confuse culture with race. I also found the cries of antisemitism hilarious. To sum up that point some people believed the film was antisemitic because there was no mention of Israel or the Israeli army in the film's latter half.

Wow, I remember the complaints about the first film about "the black robot died!" I thought the black robot was Ironhide?

As for Israel, I believe the reason people complained about that not because it's in the general area, but actually between Egypt and Jordan. So Sam's team must've passed through Israel in order to get from Giza to Petra. And since Jordan was mentioned in name and represented with a (pathetically small) air force, that gives Israel reason to want in.

Actually that was a scouting force. They weren't sending in the cavalry, but a small scout group to find out what was going on. Their satellites were blind after all. With the scout force shot down they didn't get any intel until the drone showed them what was really going on.

What makes that funny though, is one character's (Simmons? Leo? don't remember) glorious shout "Here come the JORDANIANS!!!" as if the day was saved right there. Cue two helicopters getting blasted ten seconds in.

Small question, was the Tomb of the Primes the same temple where the Holy Grail was found in The Last Crusade? It sure looks the same but I believe Petra is home to several carved out temples.

Rushie wrote:What makes that funny though, is one character's (Simmons? Leo? don't remember) glorious shout "Here come the JORDANIANS!!!" as if the day was saved right there. Cue two helicopters getting blasted ten seconds in.

Small question, was the Tomb of the Primes the same temple where the Holy Grail was found in The Last Crusade? It sure looks the same but I believe Petra is home to several carved out temples.

To be fair if I were in their situation I'd have been overjoyed to see any form of backup too. And sometimes that just happens, you ride into the battle only to be shot down, especially against highly advanced war robots from another world you aren't equipped to fight.

To answer your second question: Yes Petra was used as the tomb that held the Holy Grail in The Last Crusade, however it was supposed to be a different location if I recall correctly. Even if they aren't these are obviously two separate film universes.

Cthulhunicron wrote:I still think it's the worst of the trilogy. The twins just ruin the movie for me. I don't see why it would have been so difficult to focus more on characters like Sideswipe and Arcee.

And it really shows that they were having script problems when they were making this film. The story is a convoluted mess.

I know someone's probably going to reply and say "just watch the damn movie, there are no plot holes!" Let's look at what the movie tells us: There were 13 Primes who presided over harvesting suns, using the Matrix of Leadership. The Primes can teleport across great distances and only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime.

They never said that, the Fallen said only a prime can defeat him. There is a difference between defeating and killing. Take the forest battle for example, Optimus was beating Megatron, Starscream, and Grindor at the same time. It was only by sneaking up on him that Megatron was able to kill him. He couldn't defeat him, but he did kill him.

One of the Primes goes against their law of protecting life and tries to build a solar harvester on Earth. The Primes intervene, a battle is fought between the Fallen and his followers (the early Decepticons) and the other primes and their followers (early Autobots). The Primes steal the Matrix back from the Fallen, go into a cave and blow themselves up to hide the Matrix.

There's never really been a satisfactory answer as to why the Primes needed to "entomb" the Matrix on Earth in the first place. I mean...they can all teleport, and the Matrix is vital to Cybertron's survival, so instead of blowing themselves up in a cave to hide it from the Fallen, why not just teleport back to Cybertron and hide it there? Furthermore, they outnumber the Fallen 12 to 1, so why didn't they just kill him and the Decepticons?

Jetfire said the Fallen was stronger than all his brothers. Plus we don't know how many followers they had. The Fallen could have enough followers to outnumber the other primes and their followers 10 to 1. Besides, hiding the Matrix on Earth worked, the Fallen never found it.

The IDW comics shed some light on this, though I don't think it's a good sign when you need to read the comics in order to make sense of the movies. The Prime is portrayed as being vastly more powerful than the other Primes, due to his conquering other worlds and assimilating their technology and knowledge. Also the Primes attempt to reason with him at first, and the Fallen just slaughters them. The last one gathers up the collected energy of the other Primes and uses it to imprison the Fallen in his sarcophagus. So....at this point, I don't see why he doesn't just grab the Matrix and go back to Cybertron.

I've never read the comics, every time they try to expand what happens after the movies the next one contradicts it. I just go by what happens in the movies, they tell you everything you need to know.

I always assumed Megatron was able to kill Optimus because Optimus was only partially descended from the Primes. I'm not sure what you mean by he was killed but not defeated. How is killing someone not defeating them??? True, Optimus eventually comes back to life and is victorious, but if Sam had never managed to find the Matrix, he would have remained dead.

Cthulhunicron wrote:I always assumed Megatron was able to kill Optimus because Optimus was only partially descended from the Primes. I'm not sure what you mean by he was killed but not defeated. How is killing someone not defeating them??? True, Optimus eventually comes back to life and is victorious, but if Sam had never managed to find the Matrix, he would have remained dead.

The only reason The Fallen couldn't be beaten was because he was one of the original Primes.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Cthulhunicron wrote:I always assumed Megatron was able to kill Optimus because Optimus was only partially descended from the Primes. I'm not sure what you mean by he was killed but not defeated. How is killing someone not defeating them??? True, Optimus eventually comes back to life and is victorious, but if Sam had never managed to find the Matrix, he would have remained dead.

The only reason The Fallen couldn't be beaten was because he was one of the original Primes.

Pretty much this. Optimus is several generations removed from the Primes, but has their bloodline so to speak. The Fallen was the genuine article.

I was under the assumption that The Fallen was the only one that had the "no one but a prime can defeat me" thing.

Also, killing ≠ defeating. Optimus Prime hardly EVER gets defeated when he dies. Was it a win for the battle for Megs in RoTF? Sure. But he didn't defeat Optimus. And I doubt anyone can say that Optimus didn't win in the Battle of Autobot City in the 80s movie, and he obviously died from that.

Cthulhunicron wrote:I know someone's probably going to reply and say "just watch the damn movie, there are no plot holes!" Let's look at what the movie tells us: There were 13 Primes who presided over harvesting suns, using the Matrix of Leadership. The Primes can teleport across great distances and only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime. One of the Primes goes against their law of protecting life and tries to build a solar harvester on Earth. The Primes intervene, a battle is fought between the Fallen and his followers (the early Decepticons) and the other primes and their followers (early Autobots). The Primes steal the Matrix back from the Fallen, go into a cave and blow themselves up to hide the Matrix.

There was nothing said about explosions.

wow, way to split hairs and totally miss the point of what I'm getting at.

True, Prime's death at the Battle of Autobot City was a sacrifice that lead to the Autobots being victorious. However, Prime himself was still defeated. It's all about context. If Megatron kills Prime and Sam never finds the Matrix, then Prime is dead and he is defeated. You can defeat someone without killing them, but I don't see how you can kill someone without defeating them. I mean unless you want to get into abstract concepts of martyrdom, etc. and say that "well I killed him but his ideology survived with his followers, yada yada" but that's not what we're talking about. They say in ROTF that only a Prime can defeat the Fallen. Since I'm a crazy person, I took that to mean that only a Prime is capable of killing another Prime.

There was nothing said about explosions.

In the flashback, they show the Primes going into a cave and there's an explosion, if I recall. If not, I apologize profusely. The point remains...they grabbed the Matrix, committed suicide somehow, and this causes the Matrix to be buried under their bodies in a cave. If they took this course of action, the situation must have been pretty desperate. The Fallen must have still been alive and I'm assuming he still had a group of Decepticon soldiers with him. Why didn't they just stay on Earth and look for it? In 10,000 years they couldn't have found it? Why leave a planet that has a solar harvester and a Matrix to go back to Cybertron and fight over its last remaining bits of Energon?