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In reference to IDW's Transformers Megatron Origin comic, the enemy in the first place were the Autobots. Millions of years ago, during the glory days of Cybertron, Iacon was the planet's capital city and seat of Autobot power. The Autobot Senate was a accused of being corrupt according to a young influencial gladiator named Megatron. In his point of view, the Senate somehow conspired to, conceal from the inhabitants that they are capable to for conquest to rule the universe if they are to survive. Utilizing their resources to their disposal to find other potential worlds instead of depending on their local wealth - the very reason why Megatron assembled the Decepticons. Hence, the 'deception' made by the Autobots kept from the Cybertronians.
Source: IDW's Transformer's Drift Issue # 2

The Autobots prefer peaceful coexistence and sharing resources. The Deceptions have a 7-step plan for global devastation that includes starting a bunch of wars and killing off as much of the population as possible, then taking everything they can, leaving a dead rock behind.

Who do you think are the real antagonists?

I've heard this before, a bunch of times. The philosophy has to ignore the fact that Megatron gladly lies, cheats, steals and, most of all, mass murders his way to Pyrrhic victory, just because he thought he could run things better than the Primes, in the process destroying the planet he was trying to dominate. Even if he did have noble intentions at one point, he discarded them extremely quickly.

A noble intention that Megatron has is absolutely true. Nevertheless, he still is and ever was the brains behind the transformation process and flight capabilities that made the Cybertronians - Transformers to begin with. I think we owe too much on the mighty tyrant after all,
leaving the Autobots as copy cats. Another point is that creating an Empire really does spell peace although with an iron hand. Even before the Great War, energon was discovered to be abundant from other worlds.
Actually, its Megatron's methods that made the Decepticons villians (who had joined to his cause) no matter how noble their intentions are for their homeworld. If it were not for that the Decepticons could've been the 'good guys'.
I hope I don't create enemies due to my nihilistic view for the Autobots. Just exercised freedom of expression.

Megatron wants his race to be the dominant species in the universe.

I for one welcome our new alien overlords even if it results in the death of us!

Oh and I went and fixed up the title of this thread, looked like you had a broken caps lock key there.

DARK ENERGON wrote:A noble intention that Megatron has is absolutely true. Nevertheless, he still is and ever was the brains behind the transformation process and flight capabilities that made the Cybertronians - Transformers to begin with. I think we owe too much on the mighty tyrant after all,
leaving the Autobots as copy cats.

Innovation and invention doesn't give you a pass on starting a world-destroying interplanetary war. If Tesla or Edison had walked out of their homes, shooting at people and demanding to be made ruler of Earth, spoiler alert, they would have been dead long before getting a throne.

DARK ENERGON wrote:Another point is that creating an Empire really does spell peace although with an iron hand.

Peace with an iron fist isn't peace, it's a dictatorship. Tyranny and oppression and dystopia.

DARK ENERGON wrote:Even before the Great War, energon was discovered to be abundant from other worlds.

That doesn't justify mass murder. Even so, the Autobots are shown receiving that Energon though, as I said, peaceful coexistence. The Decepticons are actually using more Energon in world conquest than the Autobots.

All true. But my alliegance stays intact with the Decepticons. One more to be debted to them - Combiner tech.

Depends on which continuity we see...

Marvel US Comics: Autobots are one side of a war, generally good guys, who value life more than anything. Protagonists, definitely.

G1 Cartoon: The autobots didn't let the decepticons away from a planet full of innocent lifeforms when they tried to leave. Borderline antagonists.

Unicron trilogy: We can say protagonists, however, they are abusing the minicons (especially at the end of Armada, when the minicons sacrifice themselfes by the dozen)...

Movie trilogy: (not trying to start another debate here): Autobots kill fleeing Decepticons, execute disabled enemies, blow up their own planet... Definitely antagonists.

IDW Comics: Megatron rose up against a tyrannical autobot system, but in the end, his goals were just as bad as the system he overthrew. Even worse, in the current RiD, Bumblebee and Prowl starts to build up their own tyrannical system - it's not completely black and white as to who the protagonists and antagonists are.

I agree.It depends on from what canon you based your view of the Decepticons. The Speilberg production did depict some if many acts of brutality to the poor mechs. But if the Autobots enemies are as that merciless, why not give 'em the bullet in their processors as well. 'A tooth for a tooth!"

It's become more of a Grey vs Grey type of setting in recent times.

Chaoslock wrote:G1 Cartoon: The autobots didn't let the decepticons away from a planet full of innocent lifeforms when they tried to leave. Borderline antagonists.

Are we talking about the firs three episodes here? Because if they let Megatron leave Earth, he would have gone back and dominated Cybertron. It's not borderline antagonism, it's like keeping a robber in the bank, because if you let him leave, he's going to go set your house on fire and you won't be able to stop him.

Chaoslock wrote:Unicron trilogy: We can say protagonists, however, they are abusing the minicons (especially at the end of Armada, when the minicons sacrifice themselfes by the dozen)...

They're partnering with the mini-cons, peaceful cooperation. They even sent the mini-cons to Earth just to prevent the Decepticons from abusing them.

Chaoslock wrote:Movie trilogy: (not trying to start another debate here): Autobots kill fleeing Decepticons, execute disabled enemies, blow up their own planet... Definitely antagonists.

The Decepticons aren't much better, but with the added bonus of mass murdering fleeing humans. And blowing up Cybertron was the only way to stop the destruction of Earth and enslavement of the human race. Which do you think is a better option, total enslavement of a species, or destroying a planet that even it's inhabitants admit is already dead anyway?

And we need to have a talk about Protagonist/Antagonist. See, a protagonist is the hero of the story, regardless of morality. So the Autobots are always the protagonists, sometimes they're just kind of jerks.

G1 80's Season 1: In the Ultimate Doom, as Optimus is about to deactivate the sorta "doomsday" machine, Megatron asks if the Autobot Commander will continue to do so, he will be a traitor to his race.
Left without a choice, Optimus did afterall pulled the lever in an episode that will lead to a 4-part series and Cybertron's possible collision to Earth.

A big mistake by Prime. Or was their a grey area?

Shadowman wrote:The Autobots prefer peaceful coexistence and sharing resources. The Deceptions have a 7-step plan for global devastation that includes starting a bunch of wars and killing off as much of the population as possible, then taking everything they can, leaving a dead rock behind.

Who do you think are the real antagonists?

I've heard this before, a bunch of times. The philosophy has to ignore the fact that Megatron gladly lies, cheats, steals and, most of all, mass murders his way to Pyrrhic victory, just because he thought he could run things better than the Primes, in the process destroying the planet he was trying to dominate. Even if he did have noble intentions at one point, he discarded them extremely quickly.

Yup.

Still, if it weren't for the corrupt Autobot regime, Megatron would've stayed a gladiator, a sports god that every Bot aspired to and not form the Decepticon Empire to begin with. Megs absolutely is a patriot, a nationalist and a realist. And he loves his homeworld and gives courage to other sentient beings who fear of the governing administration.

Again, a point for the Autobot bad guys.

It could,'ve been a shift in Megatron's psychological and moral circuitry. Due to the immorality the Autobot authority, it resulted the worst of the Leader. Just like studying the mind of a criminal through his medical history. Megs was a different Cybertronian then. Thus, it was the Bot's fault. The Bots had left a permanent damage to Meg's central processors.

DARK ENERGON wrote:Still, if it weren't for the corrupt Autobot regime, Megatron would've stayed a gladiator, a sports god that every Bot aspired to and not form the Decepticon Empire to begin with. Megs absolutely is a patriot, a nationalist and a realist. And he loves his homeworld and gives courage to other sentient beings who fear of the governing administration.

Again, a point for the Autobot bad guys.

It could,'ve been a shift in Megatron's psychological and moral circuitry. Due to the immorality the Autobot authority, it resulted the worst of the Leader. Just like studying the mind of a criminal through his medical history. Megs was a different Cybertronian then. Thus, it was the Bot's fault. The Bots had left a permanent damage to Meg's central processors.

I love America. That doesn't give me the right to start shooting people until they make me President, just because I don't like the current administration. Nor is it excusable because the administration made me kinda sad.

DARK ENERGON wrote:G1 80's Season 1: In the Ultimate Doom, as Optimus is about to deactivate the sorta "doomsday" machine, Megatron asks if the Autobot Commander will continue to do so, he will be a traitor to his race.
Left without a choice, Optimus did afterall pulled the lever in an episode that will lead to a 4-part series and Cybertron's possible collision to Earth.

A big mistake by Prime. Or was their a grey area?

Because, in G1 at least, Prime wasn't willing to sacrifice Cybertron and the countless Autobots still living on it, including Alpha Trion and Elita 1.

Chaoslock's quote.
G1 Cartoon: The autobots didn't let the decepticons away from a planet full of innocent lifeforms when they tried to leave. Borderline antagonists.

First of all, I have to agree with Shadowman. The Decepticons basically had enough to conquer Cybertron, however Chaoslock, you forget that Megatron wanted to conquer the rest of universe as well, including small planets like, say, Earth. You cannot allow someone like Megatron any resource. For most of the cartoon series, the Autobots were definitely protagonists. Actually, although Megatron was definitely the grand evil of the Decepticons, the rest of cartoon Decepticons were NO paragons of virtue nor good government. Take these examples:
Starscream was vain and egotistical and at best would have a clownish Santa Anna of Mexico type, but I could see him becoming a Udai Hussein, Nero, or even Caligula type.
Rumble: street punk, how about evolving to an Al Capone or Pablo Escobar
Astrotrain: Encouraged people to worship him as a god (God Gambit). See bad Roman Emperors or Kim Jong Il
Swindle: Sadly Illinois Governor material. Unfortunately, might be the best governor in my current state since Jim Edgar

The Autobots are the original bad guys and started the Great Civil War. The Bots could've prevented the war resulting a spark, Megatron, who defied an empire.
I'm hands down to Decepticon bad @$§ attitude for a psychiatrist would surely give up on 'em. It was due to the Bots that Megs programmed himself including his so called 'minions' eternal hatred to the Bots becoming the bad guys we hd loved to hate. I don't blame 'em. Just put youself on Meg's mechanical shoes. The Bots in the very beginning were then the villians, no risk denying it. This history was however not written during the 80's til the turn of the millenium.
Ofcourse its a tradition ever since then that we were fond of the heroic Autobots.

So, is it
"To All are One!" ?
or
"All Hail Megatron" ?

DARK ENERGON wrote:The Autobots are the original bad guys and started the Great Civil War. The Bots could've prevented the war resulting a spark, Megatron, who defied an empire.

Now you're just making things up. The Decepticons started the war in every continuity.

G1: Unspecified reason, mostly for power. The early Autobots couldn't even fight back, being domestic products while early Decepticons were military equipment. The Autobots developed transformation as a defense mechanism.

Unicron Trilogy: Started when Megatron began performing experiments on and abusing Mini-cons for power, eventually using them to fuel his army, igniting the war.

Movie trilogy: Megatron was convinced by the Fallen to overthrow Optimus and steal the Allspark for his own. Cybertron was rendered a lifeless shell as a result.

Aligned: Megatron started the Decepticons out of the lower castes, secret allowing them to perform blatant terrorist actions, with the notion that if he denied it, it would make the council think highly of him. Megatron walked right up to the council and demanded they make him a Prime. (Despite becoming a Prime not working that way) When they chose Orion/Optimus instead, Megatron decided if he can't rule Cybertron as a Prime, he'll just have to conquer it by force. He then proceeded to destroy Cybertron out of of egotism and petty jealousy.

IDW: Started as a rebellion against the government. Quickly led to regular old egomania-driven conquest. Ended with the destruction of Cybertron. Which then segued into a cold war, leading to the destruction of countless worlds by Megatron's design.

DARK ENERGON wrote:I'm hands down to Decepticon bad @$§ attitude for a psychiatrist would surely give up on 'em. It was due to the Bots that Megs programmed himself including his so called 'minions' eternal hatred to the Bots becoming the bad guys we hd loved to hate. I don't blame 'em. Just put youself on Meg's mechanical shoes. The Bots in the very beginning were then the villians, no risk denying it. This history was however not written during the 80's til the turn of the millenium.
Ofcourse its a tradition ever since then that we were fond of the heroic Autobots.

So, is it
"To All are One!" ?
or
"All Hail Megatron" ?

Nothing you said makes any sort of sense, at all. You got a F- in psychology, I know that much.

Unless you're talking about Shattered Glass, but that was specifically designed as a Mirror Universe.

DARK ENERGON wrote:The Autobots are the original bad guys and started the Great Civil War. The Bots could've prevented the war resulting a spark, Megatron, who defied an empire.
I'm hands down to Decepticon bad @$§ attitude for a psychiatrist would surely give up on 'em. It was due to the Bots that Megs programmed himself including his so called 'minions' eternal hatred to the Bots becoming the bad guys we hd loved to hate. I don't blame 'em. Just put youself on Meg's mechanical shoes. The Bots in the very beginning were then the villians, no risk denying it. This history was however not written during the 80's til the turn of the millenium.
Ofcourse its a tradition ever since then that we were fond of the heroic Autobots.

So, is it
"To All are One!" ?
or
"All Hail Megatron" ?

Sorry, Dark Energon, your logic is kinda flawed. I will give a grim example.

Late 1920's- early 1930's Germany: A politican feels that he can restore Germany's place in the world and improve the lives of citizens. His fatherland's economy was wrecked even before the Great Depression and has to pay the entire cost of WW I because of the punitive Treaty of Versailles. His country's industrial heartland for just recently freed from French control. Germany is governed by the inept Weimar Republic with its share of corrupt politicans. In side note, the Weimar Republic was one of the most progressive, liberal nations of the Earth at the time, so it was from having a backward Arab dictatorship feel to it. There was also fear that Germany was verge of becoming run by the SDP, then a Communist-backed party (in this post- Cold War times, we forget and ignore how nasty early Communists where). This politician eventually become German Chancellor. Feel sympathy with a future German leader about the mess he needed to fix. Don't! This politican was named ADOLF HITLER! He might have got an inbox from hell, but he was the WORST possible solution, and we ever to get a point where even sympathize with this demonic (under any morality) man, our society and our world will be grim danger.

Sorry, this might be to extreme of an example, but many dictators came to power into bad situations to fix things.

Wow there is so much bulsh*t and wrongness in this thread that it managed to attract me from my TF break.

Now, on the idw verse specifically, The Autobots weren't the Regime, they were the military/ police force and under control of the regime.
Megatron wasn't a sports god, he was a miner who lost his job, accidentally killed someone in rage, and then joined the underground and illegal Gladiatorial combat matches, he was only admired by psychos and violent murderers. People he originally hated.
He's also not a nationalist and Patriot, because duh, he hates what his people stand for.

The Autobots did their job, which was fight back when murdering terrorists started murdering their superiors and civilians.

The only Megatrons to ever have noble intentions were idw Megatron (who kinda spiralled into it all until he actually enjoyed himself and started murdering for the fun of it.) and Shattered Glass Megatron.

Aligned Megatron was more evil while in his "good" faze than G1 cartoon Megatron.

Also there the hell do you get the idea that Megatron "invented" Transforming? He never did.

But then again you're of the Raksha mentality and therefore either really stupid or a psychopath, so you'll just continue defending your inane point.

I guess you're also in favour of Cobra over GI Joe, Venom over Spider-Man, and the Joker over Batman.

Dead Metal wrote:But then again you're of the Raksha mentality and therefore either really stupid or a psychopath, so you'll just continue defending your inane point.

Remember kids, snakes do not make you look cool, when you still obsess over non-existent facets from an '80s kids cartoon.

I'm going to say this with the knowledge that the title of this thread seems to be a troll, intentional or otherwise. There's not going to be any agreement of any kind, I know that. Just wanted to add my two cents.

The consensus of Cybertron before the civil war broke out was that is was a bit of a feudal society. There was inequality all over the place, depending on what class you were in. Orion Pax and Megatron both saw this and basically agreed on what the problems were.

The difference is, while Orion Pax wanted to change things for the better, Megatron wanted to take advantage of the unrest among the impoverished classes and cause a rebellion.

The decepticons are without a doubt the greater evil here, but keep in mind megatron could never have surrounded himself with a large enough army to start a war, had the arrogant autobot aristocracy not oppressed them into a corner to begin with.

You could make a convincing argument that there never would have been a war, had Optimus Prime been in charge from the beginning.

Hi-Q wrote:The decepticons are without a doubt the greater evil here, but keep in mind megatron could never have surrounded himself with a large enough army to start a war, had the arrogant autobot aristocracy not oppressed them into a corner to begin with.

You could make a convincing argument that there never would have been a war, had Optimus Prime been in charge from the beginning.

You don't need an oppressive government to form an army. The Confederacy was formed mostly because the Union didn't want to use human beings as slaves anymore. Though they did believe the government was oppressing them, it was only because the South not only wanted to own slaves, they were looking to expand the slave-trading business. Hitler was particularly good at convincing Germany to commit genocide and start another World War, despite having been beaten badly in the last one. Even the modern US Army is formed and maintained just by saying "Hey, you know, we could really use your help" and offering free college tuition and the best workout of your life.

Shadowman wrote:

Hi-Q wrote:The decepticons are without a doubt the greater evil here, but keep in mind megatron could never have surrounded himself with a large enough army to start a war, had the arrogant autobot aristocracy not oppressed them into a corner to begin with.

You could make a convincing argument that there never would have been a war, had Optimus Prime been in charge from the beginning.

You don't need an oppressive government to form an army. The Confederacy was formed mostly because the Union didn't want to use human beings as slaves anymore. Though they did believe the government was oppressing them, it was only because the South not only wanted to own slaves, they were looking to expand the slave-trading business. Hitler was particularly good at convincing Germany to commit genocide and start another World War, despite having been beaten badly in the last one. Even the modern US Army is formed and maintained just by saying "Hey, you know, we could really use your help" and offering free college tuition and the best workout of your life.

The Hitler example was mainly what I was going for. Germany was in shambles after WWI, and Hitler knew exactly how to tap into that reservoir of resentment and frustration, and twisted it into evil.

I'm not saying it's the only way to raise an army, but it was the method of choice in this specific universe, and it's very arguable that Megatron could not have raised a large enough army to pose any real threat without the autobots creating dissension for him.

Hi-Q wrote:I'm not saying it's the only way to raise an army, but it was the method of choice in this specific universe, and it's very arguable that Megatron could not have raised a large enough army to pose any real threat without the autobots creating dissension for him.

He could have, though, and in many continuities, he did, such as the Unicron Trilogy and the Movies. In G1, the army existed even before he did!

Second...which universe are we talking about? I'm talking about pretty much every universe but I'm getting the sense you're all focusing on IDW or Aligned.

As much nostalgia as I feel for the G1 cartoon, I dismiss it completely when I think of TF cannon.

I do think of IDW only because they were the first and only people for a long time that took the TF origins seriously and fleshed out a real backstory.

The High Moon games and the Prime TV series both adapted most if not all of that history as well, which is why I consider it widely accepted cannon.