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Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:22 am

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Hi-Q wrote:As much nostalgia as I feel for the G1 cartoon, I dismiss it completely when I think of TF cannon.

I do think of IDW only because they were the first and only people for a long time that took the TF origins seriously and fleshed out a real backstory.

The High Moon games and the Prime TV series both adapted most if not all of that history as well, which is why I consider it widely accepted cannon.


Well...no, actually. On two fronts: G1 is always canon, to G1, at least. There is no one canon for Transformers, so something can only be non-canon if it's heavily contradicted by a work it's supposed to be related to. (A lot of the tie-in stuff for the movies, for instance)

Second, the idea of Megatron going from Gladiator to conqueror is from the G1 Marvel comics, along with the concept of Primus. The idea of the Original 13 dates between '03 to '04, during the Dreamwave era. IDW didn't really add anything new to the origin story, though it stands to reason that Simon Furman, who also pretty much ran IDW's Transformers comics, also came up with the vast majority of the mythos as we know it today.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:26 am

I wasn't saying I dismissed the G1 comics.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:35 am

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Hi-Q wrote:I wasn't saying I dismissed the G1 comics.


I didn't say cartoon or comics, because it doesn't really matter. G1 cartoon is canon with G1 cartoon, G1 Marvel Comics are canon with G1 Marvel Comics.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby njb902 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:04 pm

I think the word decepticon kinda says it all. while I'm sure some of the cons joined up for their own good reasons I don't think a army bent on galactic domination through tyranny can be considered the good guys.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:17 am

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Shadowman wrote:
Dead Metal wrote:But then again you're of the Raksha mentality and therefore either really stupid or a psychopath, so you'll just continue defending your inane point.


Remember kids, snakes do not make you look cool, when you still obsess over non-existent facets from an '80s kids cartoon.


Maybe Dark Energon and Raskha are only type of people who root for WWE heels, Mario Balotelli, Terrell Owens, etc.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:29 pm

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Although I'm not American, I always respect people point of views. I'm a kidney patient who loves to learn from something. I still love life despite my condition. But the topic is like just a "What If?" question. I asked myself until were can I go far to defend that the Bots are the the real baddies. I may have lost this discussion and I don't mean to stir some shakey reactions here. Most of you may have know every concept of the tf universe and as well as history and philosophy/morality that I fail to mention but I'm still a TF fan. So far you guys are doing well in this thread and admire every reaction and knowledge you guys had contributed to this. Remember, this thread is solely for DEBATE but not to prove that evil is the new black. As a Filipino, a Christian, I have never supported terrorism, racism, genocide or the evils on this world. I swear there are things here in the Philippines making some world news that I'm not proud of; the Abu Sayaff kidnappings and bombings; the man-made caused floods. Based on history, I knew what Hitler, Napoleon, The Anti-Christs, Bin Laden have had done to our world. I love history. It has and always been my favorite subject. And I still love and continue reading it. The history of the TFs are broadening growing & widening as time passes by. We wouldn't have this debate if it weren't for the DW Prod. & IDW origins. Its the 3rd millennium. Things were easy during the 80's were kids had loved the good vs. Evil theme. I just wanted to keep an open mind. So what the topic stays within the discussion and TFs stays within TFs not in the real world.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:36 am

Motto: "Where is this global warming that scientists talk about this winter?"
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Sorry, Dark Energon, mi hermano if I misconstured your intentions.

First all, GET WELL ASAP! Our thoughts and prayers are with you!

Don't about the worry treatment you been getting. My arrogant newbie jerk butt has slammed plenty a time already (just look at my posting history). You deserve a fair debate. I will give you my take on the Megatron character. I will admit that I have not read IDW comics, and this own take as wannabe fiction reader:

I see Megatron as more like as Nicolae Capathia type. If you are not familiar w/ Carpathia, he is Antichrist of the Left Behind series. As many Protestant and Evangelical theories on the nature of Antichrist, Carpathia comes in as the man-of-peace charismatic rock star politican who makes Mother Theresa and Gandhi seems like lazy, heartless slackers, but of course he is mass murderering (who doesn't mind doing the dirty work) cocky punk who can do some Jedi Mind Tricks, in short he your generic Antichrist. I learned from Dead Metal (the village enforcer) that Megatron started off as a gladiator in illegal fight clubs. That should be your tip off, unless those fight clubs somehow are unusually humane, Megatron was perfectly willing to kill TF's to please the crowd. Such behavior is not usually a sign of a nice guy. If Megatron started off noble, he started becoming evil way before he had to deal w/ a couple of politicans. He probably snapped before running for office. In short, if he didn't start the war, he was mad because he didn't start it himself.

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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:31 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
DARK ENERGON wrote:Remember, this thread is solely for DEBATE but not to prove that evil is the new black.


The problem is one side of the debate can actually be disproved by looking at the fiction. You didn't pose it as a "what if?" question either, you posed it as an "is it?" question, then immediately hopped on the "It is" side despite our constantly proving that side can't exist without totally ignoring the fiction itself.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:18 pm

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Yer right Shadowman. That's what I forgot to post it. My mistake. Apologies. Well anyways, I'm glad that TF fans here really mean business. And their are lots of things I've learned from you guys that would prompt me again to restart reading IDW's Megatron Origin. I appreciate everything that d_sel1 said me. Hey...were one in the same pool mi hombre.
I kinda not, if not completely, ignoring Marvel Comic's 'What If?'s series but browsing won't hurt; they are good addition to the Marvel Universe just like the Shatter Glass runs.
But truly the What If thing? I admit it. Just got completely blanked out of the picture. Not a good excuse for a newbie.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:14 pm

I think the farthest you can go with it is saying that the Autobots created the conditions for Megatron to become powerful. I don't think there's room to argue over which side had the better intentions.

The interesting twist will always be that Megatron and Orion Pax actually agreed that the old social system was broken and needed to be changed.

I wish Prime had taken their golden opportunity to explore that more. It would have been nice to see exactly how far Pax and Megatron went together before they broke off.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby ebilly99 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:07 pm

I hear all this talk about the con's being the bad guys, and while it can be argued that Megatron was, the Con's fought for what they believed was right. It is true they killed humans, but we were to the transformers and cows are to humans. Had the autobots ever sat the con's down and listened to them the war would have never started. During G1 Shockwave kept a dieing planet alive and prevented a civil war. Also we must remember it was the Autobots who lead the Con's to earth. If the autobots had found energy and returned the con's would have been wiped out.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:55 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
ebilly99 wrote:I hear all this talk about the con's being the bad guys, and while it can be argued that Megatron was, the Con's fought for what they believed was right.


That doesn't mean it was right, though. Hitler believed what he did was right, and that was the single largest case of genocide in human history.

ebilly99 wrote:It is true they killed humans, but we were to the transformers and cows are to humans.


Not to the Autobots we aren't. They see us as the intelligent species we are.

ebilly99 wrote:Had the autobots ever sat the con's down and listened to them the war would have never started.


Yeah, the problem is, Megatron isn't the "sitting down and listening" type. You'll often hear Optimus try to appeal to him, but Megatron keeps his "Either I rule, or there won't be a planet left to rule."

I've said this before, the Autobots would love a peaceful victory. If the Decepticons dropped their guns there wouldn't be another shot fired. because that's all the Autobots ever wanted.

ebilly99 wrote:During G1 Shockwave kept a dieing planet alive and prevented a civil war.


Prevented? You must have watched a few episodes out of order, the war had been going on since long before Shockwave joined in. His job was to either win the war for the Decepticons, or draw it out long enough for Megatron to get back.

ebilly99 wrote:Also we must remember it was the Autobots who lead the Con's to earth.


And how is that their fault exactly? I seem to recall the Decepticons boarding the unarmed exploration ship attempting to kill it's occupants and causing it to crash-land on Earth.

ebilly99 wrote:If the autobots had found energy and returned the con's would have been wiped out.


And if the Decepticons had found energy and returned, the bots would have been wiped out. The difference is, the Decepticons defining characteristic is their belligerence and malevolence. After conquering Cybertron, they wouldn't have stopped.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:34 am

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Here is a side question:

Was the Great War inevitable if someone other than Megatron led them? Could the Decepticons ever peacefully and permanentally coexisted with the Autobots? If not, was there also a possibility that the Decepticons might decided to go with a "peaceful divorce option" and left Cybertron to the Autobots and pursued to build colonies or an empire in parts unknown to TFs, instead of "Cybertron is Ours!" option?
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:52 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
d_sel1 wrote:Here is a side question:

Was the Great War inevitable if someone other than Megatron led them? Could the Decepticons ever peacefully and permanentally coexisted with the Autobots?


Nope. In the G1 cartoon, the war was waging long before Megatron came onto the scene. According to the Allspark Almanac, it was the same in Animated, with Megatron taking control of the already-existing faction from Megazarak.

d_sel1 wrote:If not, was there also a possibility that the Decepticons might decided to go with a "peaceful divorce option" and left Cybertron to the Autobots and pursued to build colonies or an empire in parts unknown to TFs, instead of "Cybertron is Ours!" option?


Of course not. They were fighting to take control of Cybertron, leaving to found their own planet would be just giving up the war and letting the Autobots win, and that's not Megatron's style.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:58 am

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Shadowman, I messed up. I should have mentioned that all these scenarios involved Megatron never being created or being eliminated early on!
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:42 am

Without Megatron there are no decepticons to begin with.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:07 am

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Hi-Q wrote:Without Megatron there are no decepticons to begin with.


Except for the times I mentioned when the faction existed before him.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:32 am

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I've always thought of the Autobots as the "real bad guys". The only reason the humans want them to win is because the Decepticons are willing to destroy them and their resources to bring order to Cybertron.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:23 pm

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SlyTF1 wrote:I've always thought of the Autobots as the "real bad guys". The only reason the humans want them to win is because the Decepticons are willing to destroy them and their resources to bring order to Cybertron.


Yeah, the Autobots are the real villains because they they aren't belligerent alien invaders. When I saw you had the latest post, I expected you to make a nonsensical logic-free argument like this.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:18 pm

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Shadowman wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:I've always thought of the Autobots as the "real bad guys". The only reason the humans want them to win is because the Decepticons are willing to destroy them and their resources to bring order to Cybertron.


Yeah, the Autobots are the real villains because they they aren't belligerent alien invaders. When I saw you had the latest post, I expected you to make a nonsensical logic-free argument like this.



Well, it's true. The Autobots let Cybertron die in the most recent TF universes, while the Decepticons are actually trying to do something about it.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby njb902 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:31 pm

SlyTF1 wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:I've always thought of the Autobots as the "real bad guys". The only reason the humans want them to win is because the Decepticons are willing to destroy them and their resources to bring order to Cybertron.


Yeah, the Autobots are the real villains because they they aren't belligerent alien invaders. When I saw you had the latest post, I expected you to make a nonsensical logic-free argument like this.



Well, it's true. The Autobots let Cybertron die in the most recent TF universes, while the Decepticons are actually trying to do something about it.


yeah cause the autobots losing the war/s really helped them kickoff their grand restoration project. I mean what defeated people haven't went on to rebuild their country/civilization in the face of the triumphant opposition ......wait what's that magic aardvark the winners rebuild/replace/fund/use the defeated as labour/convert them/wipeout/rape/pillage/plunder/use as cannon fodder/enslave/......pfffffffffft when has that ever happened.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:44 pm

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
SlyTF1 wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:I've always thought of the Autobots as the "real bad guys". The only reason the humans want them to win is because the Decepticons are willing to destroy them and their resources to bring order to Cybertron.


Yeah, the Autobots are the real villains because they they aren't belligerent alien invaders. When I saw you had the latest post, I expected you to make a nonsensical logic-free argument like this.



Well, it's true. The Autobots let Cybertron die in the most recent TF universes, while the Decepticons are actually trying to do something about it.


Except for Aligned, where it was directly Megatron's fault. And the movies, where Cybertron had to be sacrificed in some way to stop Megatron from doing something really awful. (All three of Megatron's plans would have caused the destruction of Earth on some scale) And IDW where it was caused by Thunderwing, a Decepticon. And both Animated and the Unicron Trilogy, where Cybertron is perfectly fine. And Beast Wars, where Cybertron is at peace because of Autobot Victory. (At least until Beast Machines)
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Stormer » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:58 pm

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Shadowman wrote:
d_sel1 wrote:If not, was there also a possibility that the Decepticons might decided to go with a "peaceful divorce option" and left Cybertron to the Autobots and pursued to build colonies or an empire in parts unknown to TFs, instead of "Cybertron is Ours!" option?


Of course not. They were fighting to take control of Cybertron, leaving to found their own planet would be just giving up the war and letting the Autobots win, and that's not Megatron's style.


I'd like to add this additional observation to Shadowman's answer - It wouldn't be an option because the Autobots couldn't unleash the Decepticons into the Universe. The 'Cons wanted complete domination of Cybertron, and eventually the known or not so known universe. Therefore if they can't have that (in the divorce), they're going to take over someone else's home to be the seat of their empire. From there, who's to stop them? When it comes down to it, I don't see the Autobots allowing the Decepticons to commit atrocities on others just to save their own planet for themselves. The Autobots would be just as guilty, and when the empire finally comes back, they'd lose Cybertron in the end anyway.
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