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Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:57 am

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G1 80's Season 1: In the Ultimate Doom, as Optimus is about to deactivate the sorta "doomsday" machine, Megatron asks if the Autobot Commander will continue to do so, he will be a traitor to his race.
Left without a choice, Optimus did afterall pulled the lever in an episode that will lead to a 4-part series and Cybertron's possible collision to Earth.

A big mistake by Prime. Or was their a grey area?
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Re: ARE THE AUTOBOTS THE REAL ANTAGONISTS IN THE WORLD OF THE TRANFORMERS?

Postby Counterpunch » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:08 am

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Shadowman wrote:The Autobots prefer peaceful coexistence and sharing resources. The Deceptions have a 7-step plan for global devastation that includes starting a bunch of wars and killing off as much of the population as possible, then taking everything they can, leaving a dead rock behind.

Who do you think are the real antagonists?

I've heard this before, a bunch of times. The philosophy has to ignore the fact that Megatron gladly lies, cheats, steals and, most of all, mass murders his way to Pyrrhic victory, just because he thought he could run things better than the Primes, in the process destroying the planet he was trying to dominate. Even if he did have noble intentions at one point, he discarded them extremely quickly.



Yup.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:15 am

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Still, if it weren't for the corrupt Autobot regime, Megatron would've stayed a gladiator, a sports god that every Bot aspired to and not form the Decepticon Empire to begin with. Megs absolutely is a patriot, a nationalist and a realist. And he loves his homeworld and gives courage to other sentient beings who fear of the governing administration.

Again, a point for the Autobot bad guys.

It could,'ve been a shift in Megatron's psychological and moral circuitry. Due to the immorality the Autobot authority, it resulted the worst of the Leader. Just like studying the mind of a criminal through his medical history. Megs was a different Cybertronian then. Thus, it was the Bot's fault. The Bots had left a permanent damage to Meg's central processors.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:09 pm

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DARK ENERGON wrote:Still, if it weren't for the corrupt Autobot regime, Megatron would've stayed a gladiator, a sports god that every Bot aspired to and not form the Decepticon Empire to begin with. Megs absolutely is a patriot, a nationalist and a realist. And he loves his homeworld and gives courage to other sentient beings who fear of the governing administration.

Again, a point for the Autobot bad guys.

It could,'ve been a shift in Megatron's psychological and moral circuitry. Due to the immorality the Autobot authority, it resulted the worst of the Leader. Just like studying the mind of a criminal through his medical history. Megs was a different Cybertronian then. Thus, it was the Bot's fault. The Bots had left a permanent damage to Meg's central processors.


I love America. That doesn't give me the right to start shooting people until they make me President, just because I don't like the current administration. Nor is it excusable because the administration made me kinda sad.

DARK ENERGON wrote:G1 80's Season 1: In the Ultimate Doom, as Optimus is about to deactivate the sorta "doomsday" machine, Megatron asks if the Autobot Commander will continue to do so, he will be a traitor to his race.
Left without a choice, Optimus did afterall pulled the lever in an episode that will lead to a 4-part series and Cybertron's possible collision to Earth.

A big mistake by Prime. Or was their a grey area?


Because, in G1 at least, Prime wasn't willing to sacrifice Cybertron and the countless Autobots still living on it, including Alpha Trion and Elita 1.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:35 am

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Chaoslock's quote.
G1 Cartoon: The autobots didn't let the decepticons away from a planet full of innocent lifeforms when they tried to leave. Borderline antagonists.

First of all, I have to agree with Shadowman. The Decepticons basically had enough to conquer Cybertron, however Chaoslock, you forget that Megatron wanted to conquer the rest of universe as well, including small planets like, say, Earth. You cannot allow someone like Megatron any resource. For most of the cartoon series, the Autobots were definitely protagonists. Actually, although Megatron was definitely the grand evil of the Decepticons, the rest of cartoon Decepticons were NO paragons of virtue nor good government. Take these examples:
Starscream was vain and egotistical and at best would have a clownish Santa Anna of Mexico type, but I could see him becoming a Udai Hussein, Nero, or even Caligula type.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:46 am

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The Autobots are the original bad guys and started the Great Civil War. The Bots could've prevented the war resulting a spark, Megatron, who defied an empire.
I'm hands down to Decepticon bad @$§ attitude for a psychiatrist would surely give up on 'em. It was due to the Bots that Megs programmed himself including his so called 'minions' eternal hatred to the Bots becoming the bad guys we hd loved to hate. I don't blame 'em. Just put youself on Meg's mechanical shoes. The Bots in the very beginning were then the villians, no risk denying it. This history was however not written during the 80's til the turn of the millenium.
Ofcourse its a tradition ever since then that we were fond of the heroic Autobots.

So, is it
"To All are One!" ?
or
"All Hail Megatron" ?
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:07 pm

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DARK ENERGON wrote:The Autobots are the original bad guys and started the Great Civil War. The Bots could've prevented the war resulting a spark, Megatron, who defied an empire.


Now you're just making things up. The Decepticons started the war in every continuity.

G1: Unspecified reason, mostly for power. The early Autobots couldn't even fight back, being domestic products while early Decepticons were military equipment. The Autobots developed transformation as a defense mechanism.

Unicron Trilogy: Started when Megatron began performing experiments on and abusing Mini-cons for power, eventually using them to fuel his army, igniting the war.

Movie trilogy: Megatron was convinced by the Fallen to overthrow Optimus and steal the Allspark for his own. Cybertron was rendered a lifeless shell as a result.

Aligned: Megatron started the Decepticons out of the lower castes, secret allowing them to perform blatant terrorist actions, with the notion that if he denied it, it would make the council think highly of him. Megatron walked right up to the council and demanded they make him a Prime. (Despite becoming a Prime not working that way) When they chose Orion/Optimus instead, Megatron decided if he can't rule Cybertron as a Prime, he'll just have to conquer it by force. He then proceeded to destroy Cybertron out of of egotism and petty jealousy.

IDW: Started as a rebellion against the government. Quickly led to regular old egomania-driven conquest. Ended with the destruction of Cybertron. Which then segued into a cold war, leading to the destruction of countless worlds by Megatron's design.

DARK ENERGON wrote:I'm hands down to Decepticon bad @$§ attitude for a psychiatrist would surely give up on 'em. It was due to the Bots that Megs programmed himself including his so called 'minions' eternal hatred to the Bots becoming the bad guys we hd loved to hate. I don't blame 'em. Just put youself on Meg's mechanical shoes. The Bots in the very beginning were then the villians, no risk denying it. This history was however not written during the 80's til the turn of the millenium.
Ofcourse its a tradition ever since then that we were fond of the heroic Autobots.

So, is it
"To All are One!" ?
or
"All Hail Megatron" ?


Nothing you said makes any sort of sense, at all. You got a F- in psychology, I know that much.

Unless you're talking about Shattered Glass, but that was specifically designed as a Mirror Universe.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:03 am

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DARK ENERGON wrote:The Autobots are the original bad guys and started the Great Civil War. The Bots could've prevented the war resulting a spark, Megatron, who defied an empire.
I'm hands down to Decepticon bad @$§ attitude for a psychiatrist would surely give up on 'em. It was due to the Bots that Megs programmed himself including his so called 'minions' eternal hatred to the Bots becoming the bad guys we hd loved to hate. I don't blame 'em. Just put youself on Meg's mechanical shoes. The Bots in the very beginning were then the villians, no risk denying it. This history was however not written during the 80's til the turn of the millenium.
Ofcourse its a tradition ever since then that we were fond of the heroic Autobots.

So, is it
"To All are One!" ?
or
"All Hail Megatron" ?


Sorry, Dark Energon, your logic is kinda flawed. I will give a grim example.

Late 1920's- early 1930's Germany: A politican feels that he can restore Germany's place in the world and improve the lives of citizens. His fatherland's economy was wrecked even before the Great Depression and has to pay the entire cost of WW I because of the punitive Treaty of Versailles. His country's industrial heartland for just recently freed from French control. Germany is governed by the inept Weimar Republic with its share of corrupt politicans. In side note, the Weimar Republic was one of the most progressive, liberal nations of the Earth at the time, so it was from having a backward Arab dictatorship feel to it. There was also fear that Germany was verge of becoming run by the SDP, then a Communist-backed party (in this post- Cold War times, we forget and ignore how nasty early Communists where). This politician eventually become German Chancellor. Feel sympathy with a future German leader about the mess he needed to fix. Don't! This politican was named ADOLF HITLER! He might have got an inbox from hell, but he was the WORST possible solution, and we ever to get a point where even sympathize with this demonic (under any morality) man, our society and our world will be grim danger.

Sorry, this might be to extreme of an example, but many dictators came to power into bad situations to fix things.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Dead Metal » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:43 pm

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Wow there is so much bulsh*t and wrongness in this thread that it managed to attract me from my TF break.

Now, on the idw verse specifically, The Autobots weren't the Regime, they were the military/ police force and under control of the regime.
Megatron wasn't a sports god, he was a miner who lost his job, accidentally killed someone in rage, and then joined the underground and illegal Gladiatorial combat matches, he was only admired by psychos and violent murderers. People he originally hated.
He's also not a nationalist and Patriot, because duh, he hates what his people stand for.

The Autobots did their job, which was fight back when murdering terrorists started murdering their superiors and civilians.

The only Megatrons to ever have noble intentions were idw Megatron (who kinda spiralled into it all until he actually enjoyed himself and started murdering for the fun of it.) and Shattered Glass Megatron.

Aligned Megatron was more evil while in his "good" faze than G1 cartoon Megatron.

Also there the hell do you get the idea that Megatron "invented" Transforming? He never did.

But then again you're of the Raksha mentality and therefore either really stupid or a psychopath, so you'll just continue defending your inane point.

I guess you're also in favour of Cobra over GI Joe, Venom over Spider-Man, and the Joker over Batman.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:04 pm

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Dead Metal wrote:But then again you're of the Raksha mentality and therefore either really stupid or a psychopath, so you'll just continue defending your inane point.


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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:09 am

I'm going to say this with the knowledge that the title of this thread seems to be a troll, intentional or otherwise. There's not going to be any agreement of any kind, I know that. Just wanted to add my two cents.

The consensus of Cybertron before the civil war broke out was that is was a bit of a feudal society. There was inequality all over the place, depending on what class you were in. Orion Pax and Megatron both saw this and basically agreed on what the problems were.

The difference is, while Orion Pax wanted to change things for the better, Megatron wanted to take advantage of the unrest among the impoverished classes and cause a rebellion.

The decepticons are without a doubt the greater evil here, but keep in mind megatron could never have surrounded himself with a large enough army to start a war, had the arrogant autobot aristocracy not oppressed them into a corner to begin with.

You could make a convincing argument that there never would have been a war, had Optimus Prime been in charge from the beginning.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:48 am

Motto: "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I sure as hell won't."
Hi-Q wrote:The decepticons are without a doubt the greater evil here, but keep in mind megatron could never have surrounded himself with a large enough army to start a war, had the arrogant autobot aristocracy not oppressed them into a corner to begin with.

You could make a convincing argument that there never would have been a war, had Optimus Prime been in charge from the beginning.


You don't need an oppressive government to form an army. The Confederacy was formed mostly because the Union didn't want to use human beings as slaves anymore. Though they did believe the government was oppressing them, it was only because the South not only wanted to own slaves, they were looking to expand the slave-trading business. Hitler was particularly good at convincing Germany to commit genocide and start another World War, despite having been beaten badly in the last one. Even the modern US Army is formed and maintained just by saying "Hey, you know, we could really use your help" and offering free college tuition and the best workout of your life.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:01 am

Shadowman wrote:
Hi-Q wrote:The decepticons are without a doubt the greater evil here, but keep in mind megatron could never have surrounded himself with a large enough army to start a war, had the arrogant autobot aristocracy not oppressed them into a corner to begin with.

You could make a convincing argument that there never would have been a war, had Optimus Prime been in charge from the beginning.


You don't need an oppressive government to form an army. The Confederacy was formed mostly because the Union didn't want to use human beings as slaves anymore. Though they did believe the government was oppressing them, it was only because the South not only wanted to own slaves, they were looking to expand the slave-trading business. Hitler was particularly good at convincing Germany to commit genocide and start another World War, despite having been beaten badly in the last one. Even the modern US Army is formed and maintained just by saying "Hey, you know, we could really use your help" and offering free college tuition and the best workout of your life.

The Hitler example was mainly what I was going for. Germany was in shambles after WWI, and Hitler knew exactly how to tap into that reservoir of resentment and frustration, and twisted it into evil.

I'm not saying it's the only way to raise an army, but it was the method of choice in this specific universe, and it's very arguable that Megatron could not have raised a large enough army to pose any real threat without the autobots creating dissension for him.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 am

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Hi-Q wrote:I'm not saying it's the only way to raise an army, but it was the method of choice in this specific universe, and it's very arguable that Megatron could not have raised a large enough army to pose any real threat without the autobots creating dissension for him.


He could have, though, and in many continuities, he did, such as the Unicron Trilogy and the Movies. In G1, the army existed even before he did!

Second...which universe are we talking about? I'm talking about pretty much every universe but I'm getting the sense you're all focusing on IDW or Aligned.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:13 am

As much nostalgia as I feel for the G1 cartoon, I dismiss it completely when I think of TF cannon.

I do think of IDW only because they were the first and only people for a long time that took the TF origins seriously and fleshed out a real backstory.

The High Moon games and the Prime TV series both adapted most if not all of that history as well, which is why I consider it widely accepted cannon.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:22 am

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Hi-Q wrote:As much nostalgia as I feel for the G1 cartoon, I dismiss it completely when I think of TF cannon.

I do think of IDW only because they were the first and only people for a long time that took the TF origins seriously and fleshed out a real backstory.

The High Moon games and the Prime TV series both adapted most if not all of that history as well, which is why I consider it widely accepted cannon.


Well...no, actually. On two fronts: G1 is always canon, to G1, at least. There is no one canon for Transformers, so something can only be non-canon if it's heavily contradicted by a work it's supposed to be related to. (A lot of the tie-in stuff for the movies, for instance)

Second, the idea of Megatron going from Gladiator to conqueror is from the G1 Marvel comics, along with the concept of Primus. The idea of the Original 13 dates between '03 to '04, during the Dreamwave era. IDW didn't really add anything new to the origin story, though it stands to reason that Simon Furman, who also pretty much ran IDW's Transformers comics, also came up with the vast majority of the mythos as we know it today.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:26 am

I wasn't saying I dismissed the G1 comics.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:35 am

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Hi-Q wrote:I wasn't saying I dismissed the G1 comics.


I didn't say cartoon or comics, because it doesn't really matter. G1 cartoon is canon with G1 cartoon, G1 Marvel Comics are canon with G1 Marvel Comics.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby njb902 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:04 pm

I think the word decepticon kinda says it all. while I'm sure some of the cons joined up for their own good reasons I don't think a army bent on galactic domination through tyranny can be considered the good guys.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:17 am

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Dead Metal wrote:But then again you're of the Raksha mentality and therefore either really stupid or a psychopath, so you'll just continue defending your inane point.


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Maybe Dark Energon and Raskha are only type of people who root for WWE heels, Mario Balotelli, Terrell Owens, etc.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:29 pm

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Although I'm not American, I always respect people point of views. I'm a kidney patient who loves to learn from something. I still love life despite my condition. But the topic is like just a "What If?" question. I asked myself until were can I go far to defend that the Bots are the the real baddies. I may have lost this discussion and I don't mean to stir some shakey reactions here. Most of you may have know every concept of the tf universe and as well as history and philosophy/morality that I fail to mention but I'm still a TF fan. So far you guys are doing well in this thread and admire every reaction and knowledge you guys had contributed to this. Remember, this thread is solely for DEBATE but not to prove that evil is the new black. As a Filipino, a Christian, I have never supported terrorism, racism, genocide or the evils on this world. I swear there are things here in the Philippines making some world news that I'm not proud of; the Abu Sayaff kidnappings and bombings; the man-made caused floods. Based on history, I knew what Hitler, Napoleon, The Anti-Christs, Bin Laden have had done to our world. I love history. It has and always been my favorite subject. And I still love and continue reading it. The history of the TFs are broadening growing & widening as time passes by. We wouldn't have this debate if it weren't for the DW Prod. & IDW origins. Its the 3rd millennium. Things were easy during the 80's were kids had loved the good vs. Evil theme. I just wanted to keep an open mind. So what the topic stays within the discussion and TFs stays within TFs not in the real world.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby d_sel1 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:36 am

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Sorry, Dark Energon, mi hermano if I misconstured your intentions.

First all, GET WELL ASAP! Our thoughts and prayers are with you!

Don't about the worry treatment you been getting. My arrogant newbie jerk butt has slammed plenty a time already (just look at my posting history). You deserve a fair debate. I will give you my take on the Megatron character. I will admit that I have not read IDW comics, and this own take as wannabe fiction reader:

I see Megatron as more like as Nicolae Capathia type. If you are not familiar w/ Carpathia, he is Antichrist of the Left Behind series. As many Protestant and Evangelical theories on the nature of Antichrist, Carpathia comes in as the man-of-peace charismatic rock star politican who makes Mother Theresa and Gandhi seems like lazy, heartless slackers, but of course he is mass murderering (who doesn't mind doing the dirty work) cocky punk who can do some Jedi Mind Tricks, in short he your generic Antichrist. I learned from Dead Metal (the village enforcer) that Megatron started off as a gladiator in illegal fight clubs. That should be your tip off, unless those fight clubs somehow are unusually humane, Megatron was perfectly willing to kill TF's to please the crowd. Such behavior is not usually a sign of a nice guy. If Megatron started off noble, he started becoming evil way before he had to deal w/ a couple of politicans. He probably snapped before running for office. In short, if he didn't start the war, he was mad because he didn't start it himself.

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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Shadowman » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:31 am

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DARK ENERGON wrote:Remember, this thread is solely for DEBATE but not to prove that evil is the new black.


The problem is one side of the debate can actually be disproved by looking at the fiction. You didn't pose it as a "what if?" question either, you posed it as an "is it?" question, then immediately hopped on the "It is" side despite our constantly proving that side can't exist without totally ignoring the fiction itself.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby DARK ENERGON » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:18 pm

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To Submit is To Commit.""
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Yer right Shadowman. That's what I forgot to post it. My mistake. Apologies. Well anyways, I'm glad that TF fans here really mean business. And their are lots of things I've learned from you guys that would prompt me again to restart reading IDW's Megatron Origin. I appreciate everything that d_sel1 said me. Hey...were one in the same pool mi hombre.
I kinda not, if not completely, ignoring Marvel Comic's 'What If?'s series but browsing won't hurt; they are good addition to the Marvel Universe just like the Shatter Glass runs.
But truly the What If thing? I admit it. Just got completely blanked out of the picture. Not a good excuse for a newbie.
Muchas gracias amigos.
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Re: Are the Autobots the real antagonists in the world of Transformers?

Postby Hi-Q » Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:14 pm

I think the farthest you can go with it is saying that the Autobots created the conditions for Megatron to become powerful. I don't think there's room to argue over which side had the better intentions.

The interesting twist will always be that Megatron and Orion Pax actually agreed that the old social system was broken and needed to be changed.

I wish Prime had taken their golden opportunity to explore that more. It would have been nice to see exactly how far Pax and Megatron went together before they broke off.
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