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I agree with Emperor Primacron.

My problems with BM are largely stylistic. I really did not like the idea that, for all the characters' talk of balance, organics were unequivocally good (the worst they could be was over-emotional) while machines were evil (the best they could be was tortured and conflicted). This is a series where the machines are sentient beings, and changing their origins doesn't change that, nor does it justify forcing them to adopt a new form (again, the characters talked about choice, but only practiced their preaching with three characters out of an ENTIRE PLANET). I thought there was a bit too much melodrama, and some of the imagry that was supposed to be spooky and trippy was just... well... ridiculous (I'm thinking of the melting robot-headed flowers and rubber-necked airplanes).

My final verdict? Beast Machines is competent, but it's not my cup of tea.

Personally I love Beast Machines. The story line was great but it petered out towards the middle of the series. All the commentary and stuff on it says that they were trying to make a Transformer style religious or spiritual epic, and it looks to me like that just kind of ran out of gas. I loved the way they turned Rhinox against everything, but Botanica was very tacked on as a character and I think Strika and Obsidian could have been so much better had they been introduced a few episodes earlier and actually been developed. I hate the idea of Cybertron having been an organic planet at one time, becuase I think that contradicts everything the Transformers stands for. I know its an alternate universe thing, but that I thought was dumb. Megatron was more maniacal than ever before and wasa great foil to fanatic-Primal. The Vehicon toys were pretty alright, but the tank and cycle drone toys were way better than the actual Tankor and Thrust.

Beast Machines was an ok show. The animation was great, and quite the step up from Beast Wars, but the morphing beast/bots and the constant use of speedlines (not to mention the out-of-place looking explosions)took a lot away from the look of it all.
Story-wise the show could have done without so much of the spiritual aspects that seemed to clog entire episodes just to make sure they had enough plot to fill 30 minutes... but the main points of the show (overlooking Cybertron's techno-organiic reformatting... never liked that) were good n' dark, and made for some great moments.

On a final note: I loved the Vehicons... to this day they remain one of my favourite evil TF factions, their designs were top-notch in my books and make me wish I had bought the tank drone and cycle drone figures.

SeekerInAFakeMoustache wrote:I agree with Emperor Primacron.

My problems with BM are largely stylistic. I really did not like the idea that, for all the characters' talk of balance, organics were unequivocally good (the worst they could be was over-emotional) while machines were evil (the best they could be was tortured and conflicted). This is a series where the machines are sentient beings, and changing their origins doesn't change that, nor does it justify forcing them to adopt a new form (again, the characters talked about choice, but only practiced their preaching with three characters out of an ENTIRE PLANET). I thought there was a bit too much melodrama, and some of the imagry that was supposed to be spooky and trippy was just... well... ridiculous (I'm thinking of the melting robot-headed flowers and rubber-necked airplanes).

My final verdict? Beast Machines is competent, but it's not my cup of tea.

Like when Rattrap was making that portable scanner and Blackarachnia asked, "But will it make them techno-organic?" meaning that the Transformers on Cybertron have no choice BUT to become techo-organic. . What's gonna happen should the organic bits over time? if Transformers can get older, weaker, sicker and die off, I don't see any benefits in a balance if that's the case.

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:Like when Rattrap was making that portable scanner and Blackarachnia asked, "But will it make them techno-organic?" meaning that the Transformers on Cybertron have no choice BUT to become techo-organic. . What's gonna happen should the organic bits over time? if Transformers can get older, weaker, sicker and die off, I don't see any benefits in a balance if that's the case.

Good point, that. It'd be a tad bit counterproductive if, after all that effort, the organic bits died and rotted away after a few years, leaving nothing but machinery.

SeekerInAFakeMoustache wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:Like when Rattrap was making that portable scanner and Blackarachnia asked, "But will it make them techno-organic?" meaning that the Transformers on Cybertron have no choice BUT to become techo-organic. . What's gonna happen should the organic bits over time? if Transformers can get older, weaker, sicker and die off, I don't see any benefits in a balance if that's the case.

Good point, that. It'd be a tad bit counterproductive if, after all that effort, the organic bits died and rotted away after a few years, leaving nothing but machinery.

And on Startrek, the Borg could not survive without their organic parts. Could see the same happen here, perhaps.

I'd have to agree with AK, Beast Machines was a delightful show. Maybe the climax was a little too closed, but it was one of the TF climaxes I enjoyed most.

I recently re-watched some old BW & BM shows then I watched one of the newer shows and I realize just how great BW &BM were and how utterly crappy the new TF shows are.

It brings great sadness.

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:1: Turning Blackarachnia into a whiney, anorexic good girl. She was always "Waaaaah, Silverbolt, waaaah!" or talking about honor, freedom and goodness.....this is Blackarachnia were are talking about here

If you think about it the whole Blackarcahica/Silverbolt relationship was a reverse of what it was in Beast Wars.
In BW we had the noble Silverbolt as the hero trying to redeem a villain and he ultimately succeeds. In BM we have Blackarahnia in the hero role and Silverbolt as the villain.

Besides BW took the whole Blackarachnia "redemption of the bad girl" to it's conclusion.

Cyberstrike wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:1: Turning Blackarachnia into a whiney, anorexic good girl. She was always "Waaaaah, Silverbolt, waaaah!" or talking about honor, freedom and goodness.....this is Blackarachnia were are talking about here

If you think about it the whole Blackarcahica/Silverbolt relationship was a reverse of what it was in Beast Wars.
In BW we had the noble Silverbolt as the hero trying to redeem a villain and he ultimately succeeds. In BM we have Blackarahnia in the hero role and Silverbolt as the villain.

Besides BW took the whole Blackarachnia "redemption of the bad girl" to it's conclusion.

But she was not all goodie two shoes in BW. She still had alot of bad girl in her. Sorta like a wild crazy girl turning religious.

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:1: Turning Blackarachnia into a whiney, anorexic good girl. She was always "Waaaaah, Silverbolt, waaaah!" or talking about honor, freedom and goodness.....this is Blackarachnia were are talking about here

If you think about it the whole Blackarcahica/Silverbolt relationship was a reverse of what it was in Beast Wars.
In BW we had the noble Silverbolt as the hero trying to redeem a villain and he ultimately succeeds. In BM we have Blackarahnia in the hero role and Silverbolt as the villain.

Besides BW took the whole Blackarachnia "redemption of the bad girl" to it's conclusion.

But she was not all goodie two shoes in BW. She still had alot of bad girl in her. Sorta like a wild crazy girl turning religious.

True but things got a hell of a lot more serious in Beast Machines, the whole planet was bent on the destruction of the Maximals, Black Arachnia had to drop the bad girl act and start acting like a hero to survive. Personally I though it was a interesting twist in BA's character to switch position with Silverbolt. In Silverbolts absence I think BA took on some of his attributes, because she missed him, because she loved him, maybe they over did it a little but I found it rather fitting and ironic.

Yours AK

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:And on Startrek, the Borg could not survive without their organic parts. Could see the same happen here, perhaps.

At least until they figure out how to replace them with mechanical parts.

Alex Kingdom wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:1: Turning Blackarachnia into a whiney, anorexic good girl. She was always "Waaaaah, Silverbolt, waaaah!" or talking about honor, freedom and goodness.....this is Blackarachnia were are talking about here

If you think about it the whole Blackarcahica/Silverbolt relationship was a reverse of what it was in Beast Wars.
In BW we had the noble Silverbolt as the hero trying to redeem a villain and he ultimately succeeds. In BM we have Blackarahnia in the hero role and Silverbolt as the villain.

Besides BW took the whole Blackarachnia "redemption of the bad girl" to it's conclusion.

But she was not all goodie two shoes in BW. She still had alot of bad girl in her. Sorta like a wild crazy girl turning religious.

True but things got a hell of a lot more serious in Beast Machines, the whole planet was bent on the destruction of the Maximals, Black Arachnia had to drop the bad girl act and start acting like a hero to survive. Personally I though it was a interesting twist in BA's character to switch position with Silverbolt. In Silverbolts absence I think BA took on some of his attributes, because she missed him, because she loved him, maybe they over did it a little but I found it rather fitting and ironic.

Yours AK

Still, she became rather boring and dull. The events in Beast Wars were pretty serious, with Megatron trying to reivent history and all.

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:

Alex Kingdom wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:1: Turning Blackarachnia into a whiney, anorexic good girl. She was always "Waaaaah, Silverbolt, waaaah!" or talking about honor, freedom and goodness.....this is Blackarachnia were are talking about here

If you think about it the whole Blackarcahica/Silverbolt relationship was a reverse of what it was in Beast Wars.
In BW we had the noble Silverbolt as the hero trying to redeem a villain and he ultimately succeeds. In BM we have Blackarahnia in the hero role and Silverbolt as the villain.

Besides BW took the whole Blackarachnia "redemption of the bad girl" to it's conclusion.

But she was not all goodie two shoes in BW. She still had alot of bad girl in her. Sorta like a wild crazy girl turning religious.

True but things got a hell of a lot more serious in Beast Machines, the whole planet was bent on the destruction of the Maximals, Black Arachnia had to drop the bad girl act and start acting like a hero to survive. Personally I though it was a interesting twist in BA's character to switch position with Silverbolt. In Silverbolts absence I think BA took on some of his attributes, because she missed him, because she loved him, maybe they over did it a little but I found it rather fitting and ironic.

Yours AK

Still, she became rather boring and dull. The events in Beast Wars were pretty serious, with Megatron trying to reivent history and all.

But before they left Earth, Black Arachnia did get the Predacon shell program disabled, so maybe her "inherent good" personality traits surfaced. And even though her TM2 form was barely used in Beast Wars, you could say those particular habits were present when she was a TM2. She didn't seem to evil then.

Duke of Luns wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:

Alex Kingdom wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:

Cyberstrike wrote:

Emperor Primacron the 1st wrote:1: Turning Blackarachnia into a whiney, anorexic good girl. She was always "Waaaaah, Silverbolt, waaaah!" or talking about honor, freedom and goodness.....this is Blackarachnia were are talking about here

If you think about it the whole Blackarcahica/Silverbolt relationship was a reverse of what it was in Beast Wars.
In BW we had the noble Silverbolt as the hero trying to redeem a villain and he ultimately succeeds. In BM we have Blackarahnia in the hero role and Silverbolt as the villain.

Besides BW took the whole Blackarachnia "redemption of the bad girl" to it's conclusion.

But she was not all goodie two shoes in BW. She still had alot of bad girl in her. Sorta like a wild crazy girl turning religious.

True but things got a hell of a lot more serious in Beast Machines, the whole planet was bent on the destruction of the Maximals, Black Arachnia had to drop the bad girl act and start acting like a hero to survive. Personally I though it was a interesting twist in BA's character to switch position with Silverbolt. In Silverbolts absence I think BA took on some of his attributes, because she missed him, because she loved him, maybe they over did it a little but I found it rather fitting and ironic.

Yours AK

Still, she became rather boring and dull. The events in Beast Wars were pretty serious, with Megatron trying to reivent history and all.

But before they left Earth, Black Arachnia did get the Predacon shell program disabled, so maybe her "inherent good" personality traits surfaced. And even though her TM2 form was barely used in Beast Wars, you could say those particular habits were present when she was a TM2. She didn't seem to evil then.

But either way with what was left in BW after her becoming TM2, she did things to help her team, but that doesn't mean she was good she could have just been doing so because she realized that she needed them to survive.

The character designs/alt modes...were CRAP.

The best versions of Megatron and Optimus Primal in Beast Wars...turn into...THAT? That doesn't even begin to mention the others.

Storylines were good.

Plus Blackarachnia in Beast Wars, even AFTER her RED: shell program was severed, still was pretty much the same.

1: She lassoed Rampage and made him part of a mountain view.
2: She later slammed a girder right into Rampage's face.
3: She said, "If this is a surprise party, someone's going to be eating Cyber venom." and narrows her eyes. And I believe she would have done so as well.
4: She made Rattrap Jewish, and even Silverbolt groaned in sympathy pain for Rattface.


Not very heroic, eh?

And even her toy had 2 sparks Plus was also a better toy....no ghetto booty.

it's my second favorite tf series, after bw. it certainly had its share of bad points, such as the unexplained and/or stupid character changes to make them mesh with the story (the worst case being what they did with rattrap - there's no way in hell the rattrap we came to know in bw would forge an alliance with megatron just because his body had no weapons) and some of the design elements, but overall it was still a damn good story, especially season 2. i appreciated it when it was on, and looking at what followed it has only made me appreciate it more.

BM is certainly at the top of not just my favorite TF series, but overall television series. I was a fan from the beginning and not just because, say, Transformers: Armada was really really lackluster. BM may not have sold as many toys as TFA overall, but it's DVD set will be watched a lot more often in this household.

I liked the characters with the exception of Nightscream (I put him in league with Wheelie for most annoying TF of all time). Botanica doesn't even bother me as she sort of had a use when the Maximals couldn't even keep their limited collection of techno-organics alive. I can also understand why Black Arachnia changed. She had a selfish, somewhat paranoid logic to pretect herself from sometimes untrusting Maximals in BW. That of course vanishes when you're on a planet you've never been to before with it's sparkless security force trying to execute you. At that point, she'd welcome what would now be familiar allies.

I can kind of see why Megatron would go anti-organic after the ordeal of the Beast Wars. His entire crew (with the exception of Waspinator of all bots) was wiped out. So much for beleiving in the Predacon alliance. Megatron himself was strapped to the back of an Autobot shuttle to be hauled back to Cybertron by the Maximals like luggage to be imprisoned upon arrival. Of course all of this, fused with the situation of a time travel escape, would enable him to exact a measure of revenge against everyone.

In all, I had no beef with the animation or designs. I got a great story that I felt compelled to see the end of. I've always believed and still do if you want the worst thing ever to bear the Transformers name (which so many claimed to be Beast Machines), why not look in the direction of something that involves a bunch of school kids who morph into lizards or something. Something that doesn't involve warring factions of robots from a metallic homeworld, but something that had a pitiful show on Nickelodeon and was for the most part a book series by Scholastic. I, of course, am referring to the Animorphs. Even though the TF name was dropped from them, it was still, the worst thing to do in trying to tie them in with the REAL Transformers.

This show is the best of the bunch.

If the whole cast of characters hadn't had their personalities **** over it would have been a better show but I can honestly say there wasn't a single character I liked until Waspinator showed up. Primal was bi-polar switching from buddhist monk on a quest to agressive apath with each episode. Rattrap was a pussy nerd, Blackarachnia a lovesick schoolgirl and Cheetor was just a jerk [sorry for the americanisms but I can't think of real english words that apply as well].
The animation was a step down from the quality of BW too.

Actually, the animation in BM is leaps and bounds ahead of BW. Maybe you mean you didn't like the style as much?

BlueFlame wrote:Actually, the animation in BM is leaps and bounds ahead of BW. Maybe you mean you didn't like the style as much?

Nope, the animation was nowhere near BW quality.

BlueFlame wrote:Actually, the animation in BM is leaps and bounds ahead of BW. Maybe you mean you didn't like the style as much?

Not when you consider that the details in Wars were modeled into the characters and locations and they were only painted on in Machines. To me that's a step down in quality. There were other factors that put it a step or three behind Wars as well, but that was the big one.

FlameStrike wrote:

BlueFlame wrote:Actually, the animation in BM is leaps and bounds ahead of BW. Maybe you mean you didn't like the style as much?

Not when you consider that the details in Wars were modeled into the characters and locations and they were only painted on in Machines. To me that's a step down in quality. There were other factors that put it a step or three behind Wars as well, but that was the big one.

Looking back at some of the episodes, I see this to be indeed correct, I retract my previous statement regarding the animation of BM (back on... page two or something)