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I grew up with G1 and loved it. Sadly it hasn't aged well. Beast Wars is by far my absolute favorite series (and toyline for that matter, likely due to that fact ).

Aside from the depth of character and excellent writing, I loved the look and feel of it. It had a really great, consistent style all its own. And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.

I hated Beast Machines at first, but it's grown on me now that I've gone back and watched it a few more times. All of the G1 references (Vector Sigma/the Key to Vector Sigma, the Plasma Energy Chamber etc.) are the best parts of that series in my opinion. The darker tone is nice too, even if I'm not a huge fan of the writing style and characterization. Either way, given the prophecy created in 'The Rebirth' (the very short 4th season of G1) in which Vector Sigma tells Optimus Prime something about having to merge the 'organic' and 'inorganic' or something along those lines (a plot point created for integrating human/Nebulon characters into the toys/TF's as Headmasters and Targetmasters), it kinda makes sense. If viewed as being a prophecy that was actually about the Technorganic reformatting of the planet and the Cybertronians, it all makes a lot more sense, particularly given the effects of the Key to Vector Sigma on organic matter (another tidbit cleverly integrated from G1 to fit the BM plot).

I guess what's most difficult for me about Beast Machines is the fact that it seems assumed that at the end everything is all rosey and peaceful now that Megatron is gone and all of Cybertron's inhabitants have been given bodies again and they're all technorganic. This ignores the political environment of Beast Wars on Cybertron completely, in which there was an uneasy treaty (the Pax Cybertronia) between the two factions (Predacons and Maximals) who were the decendents of the Decepticons and Autobots respectively. Yes, perhaps there would be peace for now now that Megatron has been eliminated, but for how long? Anyone who paid attention to Beast Wars would know that the Predacon Alliance was hardly content with how things were and planned to conquer Cybertron eventually and that the Maximals themselves were all too aware that the Predacons in general were not to be trusted. New bodies and a revitalized planet will not change that. If anything, assuming Energon for fuel is less of a concern given their now technorganic bodies, it simply increases the likelihood that the Predacons would stage an uprising to conquer the Maximals and take control of Cybertron. Galactic conquest and tyranny is in the very nature of the Decepticons and their descendents, the Predacons, are no different. I think the writers forgot that or simply chose to conveniently leave it out so that they could wrap up the G1 continuity as requested by Hasbro (who had already planned to drop the Transtech line/show, which was to be the successor to the Beast Machines story and continuation of the G1 continuity) and end everything happily.

Personally, I would have preferred that they ended it with Megatron winning at the end of Beast Machines if it was to be the end of the G1 continuity given the state the universe was in, but it's a kids show and you can't do that with a kids show.

Very well put post, xyl360. Though, a few thoughts of your thoughts.

xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.

Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other.

xyl360 wrote:I guess what's most difficult for me about Beast Machines is the fact that it seems assumed that at the end everything is all rosey and peaceful now that Megatron is gone and all of Cybertron's inhabitants have been given bodies again and they're all technorganic. This ignores the political environment of Beast Wars on Cybertron completely, in which there was an uneasy treaty (the Pax Cybertronia) between the two factions (Predacons and Maximals) who were the decendents of the Decepticons and Autobots respectively. Yes, perhaps there would be peace for now now that Megatron has been eliminated, but for how long? Anyone who paid attention to Beast Wars would know that the Predacon Alliance was hardly content with how things were and planned to conquer Cybertron eventually and that the Maximals themselves were all too aware that the Predacons in general were not to be trusted. New bodies and a revitalized planet will not change that. If anything, assuming Energon for fuel is less of a concern given their now technorganic bodies, it simply increases the likelihood that the Predacons would stage an uprising to conquer the Maximals and take control of Cybertron. Galactic conquest and tyranny is in the very nature of the Decepticons and their descendents, the Predacons, are no different. I think the writers forgot that or simply chose to conveniently leave it out so that they could wrap up the G1 continuity as requested by Hasbro (who had already planned to drop the Transtech line/show, which was to be the successor to the Beast Machines story and continuation of the G1 continuity) and end everything happily.

Regarding the writers forgetting the political nature of Cybertron during the BW cartoon, thing is, when BM was created, the authority and control of the series were handed off to a new team of writers and editors, with only a few of the same people involved in BW remaining on board for BM. Specifically, the head writers for BW, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, were not involved in BM. Instead, BM's story was crafted by the likes of Bob N. Skir and Marty Isenberg, neither of whom had worked on Beast Wars and so weren't entirely aware of the political state Bob and Larry had set up in the previous cartoon. While they could have gone back to review what had come before, they were instructed by Hasbro to start the series with a clean slate.

Regarding the end result making Cybertron vulnerable to attack by the Predacons, this brings up two things.

First, in an early draft for BM, there was going to be both Maximals and Predacons fighting against the Vehicons together to take back the planet from Megatron, rather than just having the Maximals do that by themselves. Had this come about, there would have likely been a shift in the Predacon politics to have them ally themselves with their former enemies to save the planet both sides had come to call home the new usurper who had seized control of it. Though this story concept ultimately did not come about, there are some bits of this that still linger in canonical material, such as the BM Maximal Buzzsaw toy being the same character as the BW Predacon Buzz Saw toy.

Secondly, I both agree and disagree with the notion that Cybertron was rendered even more vulnerable to enemy attack by the end of BM. Why both? Well, simply put, I must ask you an honest question. Have you ever read the BotCon comic series "Transformers: The Wreckers" (later retitled "Transformers: Universe - Featuring the Wreckers")? In this story, it is set both during and afterthe Beast Machines cartoon, reveals several concepts not told in the show itself, and ultimately led to a planned Quintesson invasion of Cybertron... one that was overwhelming the planet, and yet ultimately crushed by a colossal series of counterstrikes by so many parties fighting to save the technorganic Cybertron. It is a glorious read and helps to fill in some blanks of the show, as well as creating a few surprises along the way (like the revelation of Optimus Primal's mission to reformat Cybertron having been a ploy entriely orchestrated by the Quintessons using the Oracle to manipulate him so as to make the planet more vulnerable to attack and thus easier to conquer... only for the technorganic reformat revealed to have also been a Primus-ordained plan unbeknownst to every and all factions).

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.

Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other.

Actually, most of the references in Beast Wars to G1 are taken directly from the G1 cartoon. The only one I'm aware of that stands out as being from the comics is Ravage speaking, but this is easily explained in the fact that he was reformatted (new software) and rebuilt (new hardware) as a Predacon, meaning they probably just installed a voicebox .

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:I guess what's most difficult for me about Beast Machines is the fact that it seems assumed that at the end everything is all rosey and peaceful now that Megatron is gone and all of Cybertron's inhabitants have been given bodies again and they're all technorganic. This ignores the political environment of Beast Wars on Cybertron completely, in which there was an uneasy treaty (the Pax Cybertronia) between the two factions (Predacons and Maximals) who were the decendents of the Decepticons and Autobots respectively. Yes, perhaps there would be peace for now now that Megatron has been eliminated, but for how long? Anyone who paid attention to Beast Wars would know that the Predacon Alliance was hardly content with how things were and planned to conquer Cybertron eventually and that the Maximals themselves were all too aware that the Predacons in general were not to be trusted. New bodies and a revitalized planet will not change that. If anything, assuming Energon for fuel is less of a concern given their now technorganic bodies, it simply increases the likelihood that the Predacons would stage an uprising to conquer the Maximals and take control of Cybertron. Galactic conquest and tyranny is in the very nature of the Decepticons and their descendents, the Predacons, are no different. I think the writers forgot that or simply chose to conveniently leave it out so that they could wrap up the G1 continuity as requested by Hasbro (who had already planned to drop the Transtech line/show, which was to be the successor to the Beast Machines story and continuation of the G1 continuity) and end everything happily.

Regarding the writers forgetting the political nature of Cybertron during the BW cartoon, thing is, when BM was created, the authority and control of the series were handed off to a new team of writers and editors, with only a few of the same people involved in BW remaining on board for BM. Specifically, the head writers for BW, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, were not involved in BM. Instead, BM's story was crafted by the likes of Bob N. Skir and Marty Isenberg, neither of whom had worked on Beast Wars and so weren't entirely aware of the political state Bob and Larry had set up in the previous cartoon. While they could have gone back to review what had come before, they were instructed by Hasbro to start the series with a clean slate.

Yes, I'm quite aware of what the interviews on the DVD's say, but they're lying, at least partially. There's way too much that took place in Beast Wars that they got precisely right that they could not have guessed at were they really not at all familiar with Beast Wars, including the flashbacks to the events at the end of Beast Wars where Megatron is imprisoned on the hull of the Autobot shuttle. That's neither here nor there though, and I do understand what you're saying and I understand why they did it the way they did (they also didn't want to confuse kids by introducing 3 factions, i.e. Maximals, Vehicons AND Predacons, something they mention in those same interviews, though they did slip up at least once, where Rattrap and Cheetor are dealing with Tankor (Rhinox) and one of them says something like "Imagine if he were a Predacon").

Sabrblade wrote:Regarding the end result making Cybertron vulnerable to attack by the Predacons, this brings up two things.

First, in an early draft for BM, there was going to be both Maximals and Predacons fighting against the Vehicons together to take back the planet from Megatron, rather than just having the Maximals do that by themselves. Had this come about, there would have likely been a shift in the Predacon politics to have them ally themselves with their former enemies to save the planet both sides had come to call home the new usurper who had seized control of it. Though this story concept ultimately did not come about, there are some bits of this that still linger in canonical material, such as the BM Maximal Buzzsaw toy being the same character as the BW Predacon Buzz Saw toy.

Yep, I know. I think it would have been super awesome, but see above, I know why they didn't do it (but the story would have worked better if they had).

Sabrblade wrote:Secondly, I both agree and disagree with the notion that Cybertron was rendered even more vulnerable to enemy attack by the end of BM. Why both? Well, simply put, I must ask you an honest question. Have you ever read the BotCon comic series "Transformers: The Wreckers" (later retitled "Transformers: Universe - Featuring the Wreckers")? In this story, it is set both during and afterthe Beast Machines cartoon, reveals several concepts not told in the show itself, and ultimately led to a planned Quintesson invasion of Cybertron... one that was overwhelming the planet, and yet ultimately crushed by a colossal series of counterstrikes by so many parties fighting to save the technorganic Cybertron. It is a glorious read and helps to fill in some blanks of the show, as well as creating a few surprises along the way (like the revelation of Optimus Primal's mission to reformat Cybertron having been a ploy entriely orchestrated by the Quintessons using the Oracle to manipulate him so as to make the planet more vulnerable to attack and thus easier to conquer... only for the technorganic reformat revealed to have also been a Primus-ordained plan unbeknownst to every and all factions).

Yes, I've read it. I really liked the Dreamwave Botcon Beast Wars comics, though there are elements I despise (like all of the G1 'survivors' like the Wreckers etc.), though I know that was just good ol' G1 fanwank.

I also didn't particularly like the references to Primus, since the only references in the G1 shows to him (including Beast Wars/Beast Machines) is in name alone and not once is he referenced as 'being Cybertron' so it was always assumed that he was some great leader from the past or a messiah-type figure to the Cybertronians.

This does spark another thought I've often had though, which I wrote about in a fanfic concept. The Autobots, ever since the G1 movie, always say "Til' all are one!". In reality, if taken literally, then that was precisely what Megatron was trying to do, unite all of the sparks on Cybertron and make them 'ONE' as in one single entity. In fact, to quote Beast Machines Megatron: "...Uniting every spark on Cybertron into one perfect being: ME!", though that obviously was likely not the writers' intent at any point in the series, but food for philosophical thought nonetheless.

In addition, I've had the idea that if Megatron had succeeded, but wanted to consume the Matrix itself and chose an opportune moment in history from which to retrieve it (i.e. following the death of Optimus Prime when it was passed to their new leader), he could have (assuming he has taken Cybertron as his new body a-la Unicron in the G1 series, Ghost in the Machine I believe?) used transwarp cells to transport himself, this planet-sized Transformer who now consumes matter the same way his super-spark consumes the sparks (souls) of Cybertronians in Beast Machines, back to the year 2005 when Optimus died in order to attempt to intercept the Matrix and consume the TF's and/or the Matrix (though admittedly he did ask Megatron/Galvatron to destroy it as I recall). Even the name would fit given 'Uni' means 'one' (i.e. Unicron) and that he was intent on consuming all life in the universe, including every spark on Cybertron.

Sorry, way OT but it's a topic I'm kinda passionate about .

xyl360 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.

Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other.

Actually, most of the references in Beast Wars to G1 are taken directly from the G1 cartoon. The only one I'm aware of that stands out as being from the comics is Ravage speaking, but this is easily explained in the fact that he was reformatted (new software) and rebuilt (new hardware) as a Predacon, meaning they probably just installed a voicebox .

Though most were indeed taken from the cartoon, the BW cartoon officially treats the Generation 1 era as Arthurian legend, so as to not pick either the cartoon or the comic as being more truthful than its counterpart. So, they took elements from both and created a continuity that's a mixture of both.

From TFWiki.net's "Beast Wars coninuity" page:

Beast Wars storylines are, in general, a subsection of the Generation 1 continuity family. But the Beast Wars cartoon does not adhere to any particular version of Generation 1 continuity that has been seen; instead it borrows facets from many and composites them into a sort of vague "mythology" that forms the Beast Wars characters' past.

Though the entire show takes place millions of years ago, the characters originated from a point 300 years into the future of Generation 1. Which Generation 1 is never made clear; the cartoon draws elements from both the original G1 comics and cartoons, and the writers stated that in the context of the cartoon, the events of the various Generation 1 stories should be regarded as something akin to Arthurian legend, rather than an exact history.

xyl360 wrote:Yes, I'm quite aware of what the interviews on the DVD's say, but they're lying, at least partially. There's way too much that took place in Beast Wars that they got precisely right that they could not have guessed at were they really not at all familiar with Beast Wars, including the flashbacks to the events at the end of Beast Wars where Megatron is imprisoned on the hull of the Autobot shuttle. That's neither here nor there though, and I do understand what you're saying and I understand why they did it the way they did (they also didn't want to confuse kids by introducing 3 factions, i.e. Maximals, Vehicons AND Predacons, something they mention in those same interviews, though they did slip up at least once, where Rattrap and Cheetor are dealing with Tankor (Rhinox) and one of them says something like "Imagine if he were a Predacon").

Well, they obviously would have had to know SOME details of the BW cartoon and its event in order to make BM match up with it. I didn't mean that they were completely in the dark of the BW cartoon, just that they may not have been aware of some of the more subtle specifics like the political state the BW cartoon hinted at.

xyl360 wrote:Yes, I've read it. I really liked the Dreamwave Botcon Beast Wars comics, though there are elements I despise (like all of the G1 'survivors' like the Wreckers etc.), though I know that was just good ol' G1 fanwank.

3H, not Dreamwave.

xyl360 wrote:I also didn't particularly like the references to Primus, since the only references in the G1 shows to him (including Beast Wars/Beast Machines) is in name alone and not once is he referenced as 'being Cybertron' so it was always assumed that he was some great leader from the past or a messiah-type figure to the Cybertronians.

That's another one of the elements taken from the comic instead of the cartoon and makes BW its own unique continity instead of being one that takes the G1 cartoon as gospel.

However, an instance in which Primus is hinted at being the Cybertronian god is in the "Nemesis" two-parter, in which the Covenant of Primus is treated as an analogy to the Bible, in which the Covenant is to Primus as the Bible is to God.

xyl360 wrote:This does spark another thought I've often had though, which I wrote about in a fanfic concept. The Autobots, ever since the G1 movie, always say "Til' all are one!". In reality, if taken literally, then that was precisely what Megatron was trying to do, unite all of the sparks on Cybertron and make them 'ONE' as in one single entity. In fact, to quote Beast Machines Megatron: "...Uniting every spark on Cybertron into one perfect being: ME!", though that obviously was likely not the writers' intent at any point in the series, but food for philosophical thought nonetheless.

Ever read the awesome that is "Singularity Ablyss"? In that story, which is set during the BM episode "Spark of Darkness", Megatron, while in a state of limbo until his spakr finally finds a new host body in the Diagnostic Drone he gets stuck in, is guided through the Allspark by Rhinox acting as a spirit guide for him, and everything Rhinox show him he misinterprets into him thinking he's the most important being of all (like, when he's shown that every spark pulses to the same cosmic rhythm, showing that all sparks are equal, he misinterprets this as thinking all sparks pulse to his own rhythm). From this, he takes it upon himself to untie all the sparks into his own very being. Rather than let himself become aprt of the collective, he set out to make himself become the collective.

xyl360 wrote:In addition, I've had the idea that if Megatron had succeeded, but wanted to consume the Matrix itself and chose an opportune moment in history from which to retrieve it (i.e. following the death of Optimus Prime when it was passed to their new leader), he could have (assuming he has taken Cybertron as his new body a-la Unicron in the G1 series, Ghost in the Machine I believe?) used transwarp cells to transport himself, this planet-sized Transformer who now consumes matter the same way his super-spark consumes the sparks (souls) of Cybertronians in Beast Machines, back to the year 2005 when Optimus died in order to attempt to intercept the Matrix and consume the TF's and/or the Matrix (though admittedly he did ask Megatron/Galvatron to destroy it as I recall). Even the name would fit given 'Uni' means 'one' (i.e. Unicron) and that he was intent on consuming all life in the universe, including every spark on Cybertron.

...I don't remember him wanting that Matrix. He was after the Allspark, the afterlife dimension of all sparks, which is also known as the "Matrix". The physical talisman of G1 was a window to this place, but that'd do Megatron little good if he's got access to the Oracle.

xyl360 wrote:Sorry, way OT but it's a topic I'm kinda passionate about .

Me too.

Also, we do a LOT of winking around here.

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.

Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other.

Actually, most of the references in Beast Wars to G1 are taken directly from the G1 cartoon. The only one I'm aware of that stands out as being from the comics is Ravage speaking, but this is easily explained in the fact that he was reformatted (new software) and rebuilt (new hardware) as a Predacon, meaning they probably just installed a voicebox .

Though most were indeed taken from the cartoon, the BW cartoon officially treats the Generation 1 era as Arthurian legend, so as to not pick either the cartoon or the comic as being more truthful than its counterpart. So, they took elements from both and created a continuity that's a mixture of both.

From TFWiki.net's "Beast Wars coninuity" page:

Beast Wars storylines are, in general, a subsection of the Generation 1 continuity family. But the Beast Wars cartoon does not adhere to any particular version of Generation 1 continuity that has been seen; instead it borrows facets from many and composites them into a sort of vague "mythology" that forms the Beast Wars characters' past.

Though the entire show takes place millions of years ago, the characters originated from a point 300 years into the future of Generation 1. Which Generation 1 is never made clear; the cartoon draws elements from both the original G1 comics and cartoons, and the writers stated that in the context of the cartoon, the events of the various Generation 1 stories should be regarded as something akin to Arthurian legend, rather than an exact history.

Yes, but it cites no specifics. TFWiki wasn't written by the authors after all. I'd love to see some specific details on what it draws from the comics.

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:Yes, I'm quite aware of what the interviews on the DVD's say, but they're lying, at least partially. There's way too much that took place in Beast Wars that they got precisely right that they could not have guessed at were they really not at all familiar with Beast Wars, including the flashbacks to the events at the end of Beast Wars where Megatron is imprisoned on the hull of the Autobot shuttle. That's neither here nor there though, and I do understand what you're saying and I understand why they did it the way they did (they also didn't want to confuse kids by introducing 3 factions, i.e. Maximals, Vehicons AND Predacons, something they mention in those same interviews, though they did slip up at least once, where Rattrap and Cheetor are dealing with Tankor (Rhinox) and one of them says something like "Imagine if he were a Predacon").

Well, they obviously would have had to know SOME details of the BW cartoon and its event in order to make BM match up with it. I didn't mean that they were completely in the dark of the BW cartoon, just that they may not have been aware of some of the more subtle specifics like the political state the BW cartoon hinted at.

xyl360 wrote:Yes, I've read it. I really liked the Dreamwave Botcon Beast Wars comics, though there are elements I despise (like all of the G1 'survivors' like the Wreckers etc.), though I know that was just good ol' G1 fanwank.

3H, not Dreamwave.

Ah, that's right, don't know why I was thinking Dreamwave.

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:I also didn't particularly like the references to Primus, since the only references in the G1 shows to him (including Beast Wars/Beast Machines) is in name alone and not once is he referenced as 'being Cybertron' so it was always assumed that he was some great leader from the past or a messiah-type figure to the Cybertronians.

That's another one of the elements taken from the comic instead of the cartoon and makes BW its own unique continity instead of being one that takes the G1 cartoon as gospel.

However, an instance in which Primus is hinted at being the Cybertronian god is in the "Nemesis" two-parter, in which the Covenant of Primus is treated as an analogy to the Bible, in which the Covenant is to Primus as the Bible is to God.

Right, him being God is fine, but again, that does not mean that he is Cybertron. He could have simply been the first Cybertronian for all we know. It doesn't give us enough to go on.

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:This does spark another thought I've often had though, which I wrote about in a fanfic concept. The Autobots, ever since the G1 movie, always say "Til' all are one!". In reality, if taken literally, then that was precisely what Megatron was trying to do, unite all of the sparks on Cybertron and make them 'ONE' as in one single entity. In fact, to quote Beast Machines Megatron: "...Uniting every spark on Cybertron into one perfect being: ME!", though that obviously was likely not the writers' intent at any point in the series, but food for philosophical thought nonetheless.

Ever read the awesome that is "Singularity Ablyss"? In that story, which is set during the BM episode "Spark of Darkness", Megatron, while in a state of limbo until his spakr finally finds a new host body in the Diagnostic Drone he gets stuck in, is guided through the Allspark by Rhinox acting as a spirit guide for him, and everything Rhinox show him he misinterprets into him thinking he's the most important being of all (like, when he's shown that every spark pulses to the same cosmic rhythm, showing that all sparks are equal, he misinterprets this as thinking all sparks pulse to his own rhythm). From this, he takes it upon himself to untie all the sparks into his own very being. Rather than let himself become aprt of the collective, he set out to make himself become the collective.

Cool, no I hadn't checked that out. Makes a lot of sense though .

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:In addition, I've had the idea that if Megatron had succeeded, but wanted to consume the Matrix itself and chose an opportune moment in history from which to retrieve it (i.e. following the death of Optimus Prime when it was passed to their new leader), he could have (assuming he has taken Cybertron as his new body a-la Unicron in the G1 series, Ghost in the Machine I believe?) used transwarp cells to transport himself, this planet-sized Transformer who now consumes matter the same way his super-spark consumes the sparks (souls) of Cybertronians in Beast Machines, back to the year 2005 when Optimus died in order to attempt to intercept the Matrix and consume the TF's and/or the Matrix (though admittedly he did ask Megatron/Galvatron to destroy it as I recall). Even the name would fit given 'Uni' means 'one' (i.e. Unicron) and that he was intent on consuming all life in the universe, including every spark on Cybertron.

...I don't remember him wanting that Matrix. He was after the Allspark, the afterlife dimension of all sparks, which is also known as the "Matrix". The physical talisman of G1 was a window to this place, but that'd do Megatron little good if he's got access to the Oracle.

Yep, I think it's kinda hard to reconcile the '2 Matrices' in these continuities. The Matrix is the afterlife "where all are one", yet it's never made clear whether it is the same Matrix as the Matrix of Leadership. I always assumed that somehow it was (i.e. the 'Spark of Sparks' where all sparks go when their bots go offline).

xyl360 wrote:Yes, but it cites no specifics. TFWiki wasn't written by the authors after all. I'd love to see some specific details on what it draws from the comics.

Off the top of my head, BW took the name of the Autobot's ship being the Ark (the ship was nameless in the G1 cartoon) and the inclusion of Primus from the Marvel comics.

IIRC, most of their G1 info was submitted to them by Ben Yee, who provided info from both sources.

xyl360 wrote:Right, him being God is fine, but again, that does not mean that he is Cybertron. He could have simply been the first Cybertronian for all we know. It doesn't give us enough to go on.

The idea of Primus being Cybertron came from the 2004 Ultimate Guide book.

But even without that idea, the original idea of Primus was that he was their god and was asleep inside Cybertron's innermost region, which the BW cartoon didn't contradict. Anyone who knew about Primus at that time knew of him from the Marvel interpretation of him being inside the planet, almost like the comic's answer to Vector Sigma, location-wise.

xyl360 wrote:Yep, I think it's kinda hard to reconcile the '2 Matrices' in these continuities. The Matrix is the afterlife "where all are one", yet it's never made clear whether it is the same Matrix as the Matrix of Leadership. I always assumed that somehow it was (i.e. the 'Spark of Sparks' where all sparks go when their bots go offline).

Always felt to me like there was:

• The Matrix of Leadership/Creation Marrix - the physical talisman carried in the chest by Autobot leaders that contained the essence of Primus and served as a window to the Allspark, and
• The Allspark - the afterlife dimension of the sparks, commonly referred to by its nickname, "the Matrix".

What's interesting is that, when Beast Machines was dubbed into Japanese as "Beast Wars Returns", the Allspark's name was changed the "Matrix Zone", apparently taking the english nickname and adding the "Zone" part to make it the actual name in that version.

Obviously with the advances in CGI animation, Beast Wars will look s**t compared to Prime, but the writing and acting are top notch. At it's best moments I'd put it up there with some mid-level cable dramas. For a show aimed at children that's saying something!

TDK Akita wrote:Obviously with the advances in CGI animation, Beast Wars will look s**t compared to Prime, but the writing and acting are top notch. At it's best moments I'd put it up there with some mid-level cable dramas. For a show aimed at children that's saying something!

Yep, the CGI is definitely not on par with what we have now, yet for some reason it appeals to me more. The CGI in Prime has its merrits, but I have the same problem with it that I had with Animated and most modern cartoons in general. It looks like they aren't trying/are deliberately abandoning realistic looking proportions and leaving out every bit of detail, particularly when it comes to peoples' (or bots') faces etc. Most cartoons are animated this way these days, and I just don't like it. It looks cheap. I've seen cartoons with more detail created by amateurs on the internet, but that's an issue with the animation industry as a whole more than it is particularly an issue with Prime.

I'm also not a fan of how it seems much of the action in Prime just so happens to take place at night or in a dark place. It means they're having to animate a lot less detail for everything, including the characters because it's 'hidden by the darkness'.

The animation is definitely a style that grows on you. I started out with Beast Wars when I was younger too, and somewhat recently decided to watch the entire thing in order. I flinched during the first episode when I realized how much it's aged (man, this stuff was so CUTTING EDGE back when it came out hahaha), but you become so immersed in their world building that you stop noticing after a while. Plus, they seem to have a certain style to hide what it is that they aren't capable of doing at the time, and highlighting all the things that they COULD do.
The story arcs are fantastic, the whole thing just has an air of lightheartedness, the animation when it comes to showing emotions is super awesome..
And the character development. Oh man, you just love every single character on that show. The only character I couldn't get in to was Scorponok, but I know tons of other people really like him.

Since I never actually had any G1 toys or anything pre-BW at the original time of airing, I thought the BW toys were just the bees knees. I only ever had Airazor, but I loved that toy to bits and pieces.

It's true that you have to sit through Beast Machines at least once. It is not my favorite by any means-- I hate the aesthetics, I hate the mechanics, I don't like the characters nearly as much, though it has an interesting story. The animation improves in a lot of areas, too. But Megatron looks so incredibly lame that it breaks my heart, and I could never ever get over Primal's giraffe neck. Augh augh augh
Still, despite all that, it's something everyone who likes BW should sit through just once.

robofinch wrote:And the character development. Oh man, you just love every single character on that show. The only character I couldn't get in to was Scorponok, but I know tons of other people really like him.

Same here. I mean, every character had something about them that was taken in some direction, but not with Scorponok. He was the loyal sub commander, but they never really ran with that. Sure, he'd be the one defending Megatron's authority during acts of defiance by other Predacons, but he wasn't really the center of attention at any point. And when Inferno came along, we a got a whole new and much more appealing flavor of "loyalty" that made Scorponok just feel superfluous in his role.

Didn't help that I never owned his toy either (I wanted it, though), aside from the McDonald's Transmetal toy.

Sabrblade wrote:

robofinch wrote:And the character development. Oh man, you just love every single character on that show. The only character I couldn't get in to was Scorponok, but I know tons of other people really like him.

Same here. I mean, every character had something about them that was taken in some direction, but not with Scorponok. He was the loyal sub commander, but they never really ran with that. Sure, he'd be the one defending Megatron's authority during acts of defiance by other Predacons, but he wasn't really the center of attention at any point. And when Inferno came along, we a got a whole new and much more appealing flavor of "loyalty" that made Scorponok just feel superfluous in his role.

Didn't help that I never owned his toy either (I wanted it, though), aside from the McDonald's Transmetal toy.

Well, he did have his 'Cyber Bees' and occasional gadgets, but eventually Tarantulas (and to a lesser degree, Blackarachnia) took over the role of creating new anti-Maximal tech and he was much better at it than Scorponok due to his very nature of being so scheming and creepy.

xyl360 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

robofinch wrote:And the character development. Oh man, you just love every single character on that show. The only character I couldn't get in to was Scorponok, but I know tons of other people really like him.

Same here. I mean, every character had something about them that was taken in some direction, but not with Scorponok. He was the loyal sub commander, but they never really ran with that. Sure, he'd be the one defending Megatron's authority during acts of defiance by other Predacons, but he wasn't really the center of attention at any point. And when Inferno came along, we a got a whole new and much more appealing flavor of "loyalty" that made Scorponok just feel superfluous in his role.

Didn't help that I never owned his toy either (I wanted it, though), aside from the McDonald's Transmetal toy.

Well, he did have his 'Cyber Bees' and occasional gadgets, but eventually Tarantulas (and to a lesser degree, Blackarachnia) took over the role of creating new anti-Maximal tech and he was much better at it than Scorponok due to his very nature of being so scheming and creepy.

Yeah, that Cyberbee episode that infected Optimus was his biggest moment, but I kept thinking while watching it that that whole plan felt more like something Tarantulas would have done instead. Plus, Dinobot and Optimus seemed to be more of the stars of that episode than him.

Tarantulas was the mad scientist, and Inferno the loyal zealot, with Scorponok just feeling like an extra.

Sabrblade wrote:

xyl360 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

robofinch wrote:And the character development. Oh man, you just love every single character on that show. The only character I couldn't get in to was Scorponok, but I know tons of other people really like him.

Same here. I mean, every character had something about them that was taken in some direction, but not with Scorponok. He was the loyal sub commander, but they never really ran with that. Sure, he'd be the one defending Megatron's authority during acts of defiance by other Predacons, but he wasn't really the center of attention at any point. And when Inferno came along, we a got a whole new and much more appealing flavor of "loyalty" that made Scorponok just feel superfluous in his role.

Didn't help that I never owned his toy either (I wanted it, though), aside from the McDonald's Transmetal toy.

Well, he did have his 'Cyber Bees' and occasional gadgets, but eventually Tarantulas (and to a lesser degree, Blackarachnia) took over the role of creating new anti-Maximal tech and he was much better at it than Scorponok due to his very nature of being so scheming and creepy.

Yeah, that Cyberbee episode that infected Optimus was his biggest moment, but I kept thinking while watching it that that whole plan felt more like something Tarantulas would have done instead. Plus, Dinobot and Optimus seemed to be more of the stars of that episode than him.

Tarantulas was the mad scientist, and Inferno the loyal zealot, with Scorponok just feeling like an extra.

Yep. Most often he was just the extra muscle to fill out the ranks of the Preds and occasionally the punching bag, though Waspinator again filled that role MUCH better than him. Ah Waspinator, the 'Kenny McCormick of the Transformers universe .

I literally got head aches from watching Beat Wars. Animation sucks sooo bad!..lol Good story though.

AdamFett wrote:I literally got head aches from watching Beat Wars. Animation sucks sooo bad!..lol Good story though.

You think that animation was bad, go watch Energon. It was made eight years later and was completely worse. Not just its animation, but in every regard.

AdamFett wrote:I literally got head aches from watching Beat Wars. Animation sucks sooo bad!

I take it you haven't watched Armada or Energon.

Armada's animation style wasn't bad, but the animation itself wasn't the best.

Energon speaks for itself.

After watching both seasons of Prime, I decided to go through some of the good old shows. Animated happened to be what I picked first but BW is next.

Only bad thing I can say about the show that isn't due to it being constrained by its ultimate producers is that they never made a 4th season for some unknowable reason and IDK about the portrayal of women. Sari is a good point but Blackarachnia (as if being saddled with a bad name wasn't unfortunate enough) and Arcee are kind of stereotypical. The latter admittedly didn't receive much characterisation but that in itself is kind of a deal.

Other than that it's a nice little Saturday morning cartoon sort of thing. Optimus is more fun when he isn't the god-emperor of all autobots and I like Bumblebee when he can talk.

I was a GeeWan kid and discovered girls around the time of BeastWars and BeastMachines so missed out on both of these series. When I came back into Transformers it was because of Binaltech because of the realistic vehicle modes. I loved G1 as a kid because of the realistic cars etc.

Which brings me to BW/BM. With all the BotCon talk etc I've tried to give the DVDs a watch, but it's hard going. Don't think I'll get past ep2 of BM as everything I know as Transformers has been thrown out the window on this. I hate the Prime series (more for the **** story/love the aesthetic), but this has totally eclipsed it! I hate everything about the BM show, the aesthetic, transformation sequences, music, 'I Am Transformed'!!! Aahhhhh! take it away!

No matter how much I look at the toys, tv show etc I just can't get down with BW/BM.

I'd like to ask a question to the BW/BM fans. Did you grow up with it, or get into it after?

Yes, I grew up on the Beast Era and am so glad I did. Otherwise, I fear I'd feel iffy about beast altmodes like those who grew up on G1 or post-Beast Era series do, which I feel is an injustice to beast altmodes.

I'm glad my first exposure to the Transformers was a top notch, quality written story with a great cast of characters and a great scope of coolness, cleverness, and fun, along with a sequel that was written in a very mature mindset with very deep and sophisticated themes.

I grew up on G1. Beast Wars brought me back into Transformers back in the late 90's when I was in high school. I eventually started buying toys again, and when I did, the first ones I started picking up were Beast Wars figures. Now I have nearly every beast from the entire line as well as those from the two Japanese Beast Wars lines and most of the cast of Beast Machines too. I can't bring myself to go back and watch G1 again though I own the entire series on DVD (and it's on Netflix now). It just doesn't hold up any more. I still watch Beast Wars and have seen the entire series from the beginning to the end more times than I can count. Beast Machines is another matter, but it's definitely grown on my as time has passed, especially when I compared the events in G1's 'The Rebirth' to the plot of Beast Machines (BM makes a LOT more sense when you do that).

Beast Wars is not without its flaws, especially early on and the animation has not aged so well in some respect. I do feel the character models are very good (especially season 2 onward), but its the environment and lighting. Dear god, that season 1 flat texture grass and lack of shadows! Its painful to look at nowadays!

It also had flaws in its narrative and some plot points went nowhere or were poorly handled. I will admit those are valid flaws. But its wrting was good (and still is), its voice acting was equally great. Sure, it had flaws but it was a major step up from Generation 1. In a way, BW is to Transformers what Next Generation is to the original serie. Or what Zeta Gundam is to Mobile Suit Gundam.

Beast Machine is (pardon the pun) a whole different beast. However, its deepest flaw is that is completely butcher the characterization of characters we came to know and like in Beast Wars. And that is a more serious offense, in my eyes, than its different take of Transformers. Because it hurt BM. Whereas being different merely enhance and makes it a truly unique installment in an otherwise sometimes predictable franchise. It was also, at the time, the most story-driven cartoon on the air.