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Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Nutimus Prime » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:06 pm

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Im watching all the Transformers series with my daughter, most for my first time too. :) At least what I find age appropriate so we skipped Japanese stuff because of the subtitles and will probably skip Beast Machines from what Ive heard. We started with G1 and we just finished season 2 of Beast Wars. She loves it and I do too. My little brothers watched Beast Wars when it aired but I never really did. Now that Im going through Transformers history I have to say Beast Wars IS amazing. Characters, story, everything. I dont usually judge older stuff too harshly on visual quality, etc. because technology always gets better. You cant flat out say a movie is crap because its black and white and was filmed in the 20s. Other aspects need to be evaluated. Classics and all that. ;)

We watched "Code of Hero" last night and I just thought wow she may not really be getting this all right now but I am and holy crap. Now I see why its a fan favorite. "A deed once done cannot be undone.." Thats all Ill say.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:05 pm

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jindrak wrote:So with both ends of the current series covered, I naturally want to get into everything that's transpired during my long hiatus. Beastwars complete series is on netflix! Perfect!

But..I just cant get past how much it shows it's age. The sound effects and CGI are straight out of Everquests era, and I just am unable to just enjoy it for what it is.
G1 one is even more old and aged than Beast Wars. If you can get passed the "80s retro" feel of G1, then Beast Wars should feel like a similar "90s retro" feel to it. ;)

jindrak wrote:So tell me; is beastwars the G1 of the generation after mine?
In a word, yes! It was far more complex and compellingly made with its deep character-driven plots and story arcs. Aside from G1, it is most likely the most influential Transformers series ever made, with every series to come after it owing something to it. It is widely regarded as one of (if not THE) best Transformers cartoons of all time.

jindrak wrote:Is it beloved because it was what people grew up with and their nostalgia glasses let them overlook the age of the series?
Some might think of it nostalgically, but for the most part, it was really well made and even fans who didn't grow up it, having been born later, have watched it and enjoyed it greatly.

jindrak wrote:I hear great things about it from just about everyone on every board, and don't want to miss out, but it's tough to get psyched up about.

Help!
Well, like I said, it's a "retro 90s" series. It was one of the first CGI cartoons of its time and is ntarually not going to be quite up-to-date with the technical production quality of today's CGI shows. ;)

jindrak wrote:OK, I can definitely give it a shot, especially knowing that it develops more as the seasons progress!

Are there any series to wait until last to watch? I've heard Armada and Energon are pretty poor.
Here's a rundown of every cartoon after Beast Wars:
  • Beast Machines - sequel to Beast Wars, a very dark, mature, and philosophical series
  • Robots in Disguise - a Japanese-made, fun-loving series with a lot of humor and a postive atmosphere
  • Armada - A series focusing on the Autobots and Decepticons fighting for control over a smaller third faction called Mini-Cons
  • Go-Bots - A four-episode video series geared towards preschoolers, based on the Playskool toyline of the same name
  • Energon - the 20th anniversary cartoon featuring a plethora of G1-inspired character designs
  • Cybertron - A galaxy-spanning series in which the Autobots must save Cybertron from a black hole by finding four scattered magical keys (this was the inspriation for TF: Prime's Omega Key story arc)
  • Animated - A bright and colorful series starring a young Optimus Prime and nearly as good storytelling as Beast Wars
  • Rescue Bots - A non-war-based series set concurrently with Prime, in which there are no Decepticons and the Autobots are all civil servants that aid humanity in emergency response missions (though intended for preschoolers, this show is top-notch quality family entertainment for all ages).

Regarding everyone's opinions about these shows, I think it is only fair for one who has never seen these shows to simply watch them themselves to form their own opinions about them.

Also, on the other side of the Pacific, Japan produced several Transformers cartoons of their own that were never released in English in the U.S.:
  • The Headmasters - a direct sequel to G1 which ignores the final "The Rebirth" episodes and tells an all new story about the Headmasters and Targetmasters
  • Super-God Masterforce - a very human-centric series in which the Autobots and Decepticons recruit humans into becoming actual Transformers to fight in the war for the planet, meaning ANYBODY could be a potential enemy.
  • Victory - a futuristic series set in 2025 with lots of Combiner-based characters
  • Zone - a one-episode sequel to Victory that was canceled after its first episode
  • Beast Wars II - a cel-shaded animated cartoon that told a story about a different Beast Wars set elsewhere from the U.S. Beast Wars cartoon
  • Beast Wars Neo - sequel to Beast Wars II picking up where that series left off with a new cast of characters

The first four have been released on DVD in English-speaking countries, but only in Japanese with English subtitles. Though, there are some DVDs that have optional English audio tracks for some of these, but these English voice tracks were made in Malaysia and are excruciatingly terrible. The Japanese language versions are the true versions of these stories, whereas the English versions of these have been botched up and mangled into something worth less than a drinking game.

As for the latter two, they have yet to be released to English-speaking countries in any subtitled form.

PrymeStriker wrote:
jindrak wrote:Oddly, I find the fact that the Predacons and Maximals are balanced 5 on 5 rather than the 10 to one odds the poor Autobots seem to suffer in every other series :)


In the overall series, there a few more Predacons than Maximals. I don't remember how they kept the balance in each season, though. It's been a long time since I have seen Beast Wars.
The numbers mostly remain even for the entire series run, even when both sides gain (and lose) more members.

Nutimus Prime wrote:Im watching all the Transformers series with my daughter, most for my first time too. :) At least what I find age appropriate so we skipped Japanese stuff because of the subtitles
Subtitles are no reason to skip a series. Granted, while a child may not take to them, you could still watch them yourself. ;)

Nutimus Prime wrote:and will probably skip Beast Machines from what Ive heard.
Beast Machines is probably the most intellectually stimulating of any Transformers cartoon, being very highbrow and philosophical in its story.

Nutimus Prime wrote:We started with G1 and we just finished season 2 of Beast Wars. She loves it and I do too. My little brothers watched Beast Wars when it aired but I never really did. Now that Im going through Transformers history I have to say Beast Wars IS amazing. Characters, story, everything. I dont usually judge older stuff too harshly on visual quality, etc. because technology always gets better. You cant flat out say a movie is crap because its black and white and was filmed in the 20s. Other aspects need to be evaluated. Classics and all that. ;)

We watched "Code of Hero" last night and I just thought wow she may not really be getting this all right now but I am and holy crap. Now I see why its a fan favorite. "A deed once done cannot be undone.." Thats all Ill say.
"The rest... is silence." 8)
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby jindrak » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:42 pm

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Thanks for the super in depth run down! After reading some of the comments here and watching a few more episodes of Beastwars, it is actually fun to watch. I think what put me off the most at first is that a LOT of the scenery and sound EFX came right out of the Everquest PC game which I played for..way too long. This really put the series in a specific time period to me, so struck the "dated" chord hard.

Quite honestly though, I am so friggin cuckoo for TFs right now, I'll most likely watch everything I can get my hands on :) Feels good to be young again.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:14 am

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jindrak wrote:Quite honestly though, I am so friggin cuckoo for TFs right now, I'll most likely watch everything I can get my hands on :) Feels good to be young again.
Kewl.

Oh crud! I just remembered two more TF cartoons I forgot to list. I will promptly add them in now.

I'm especially ashamed since one of them has become one of my favorites and I forgot it. :oops:
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby RhA » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:54 am

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Chaoslock wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:
jindrak wrote:OK, I can definitely give it a shot, especially knowing that it develops more as the seasons progress!

Are there any series to wait until last to watch? I've heard Armada and Energon are pretty poor.


RiD and Beast Machines were gutwrenchingly horrid. :SICK:


RiD was... But Beast Machines is a must-see-once for every tf fan. It's a lot darker than BW, and the ending is not optimal, but it is a good continuation of BW.


Yeah, I just do not get the hate on BM. I loved it, the balance between Megatron and Primal is just awesome. Pretty funky art style as well.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Nutimus Prime » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:28 am

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Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles are no reason to skip a series. Granted, while a child may not take to them, you could still watch them yourself. ;)


Sabrblade wrote:Beast Machines is probably the most intellectually stimulating of any Transformers cartoon, being very highbrow and philosophical in its story.


When I say child I mean my preschool age daughter. So she definitely wont be taking to reading the subtitles lol. Im already pushing some boundaries as far as what Im allowing her to watch, Transformers wise I mean, but she knows the difference between pretend and real so its working well at the moment. No Bay movies thats for sure lol. Ill be grabbing all 3 G1 Japanese series to watch for myself and when shes a bit older we can start them.

As for Beast Machines I will definitely watch it after Beast Wars but Im debating her introduction to it. I may watch each episode, make sure its appropriate, then watch with her.

When we finish Beast Wars/ Beast Machines I have some decisions to make. I wanted to watch all english series in chronological order but Im debating skipping over Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron and Animated. If so we are jumping right to Prime and Rescue Bots. Im excited for Prime and Rescue Bots looks very fun for kids.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Rodimus Prime » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:41 am

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I think she would like Armada and Animated, especially the latter. It's very fun and visual. As for Beast Machines, definitely wait until later with it. You can watch it and make your own mind up about it, but it's not really for kids. Very dark and depressing. Personally, I think it's the worst TF series after Cybertron, but that's just my opinion.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby BeastProwl » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:15 am

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If your going to watch Prime with your daughter, note that it's more mature than Beast Machines! It has real Robo-Gore. Beast Machines is dark, yeah. But not as dark as prime.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby PrymeStriker » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:40 am

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BeastProwl wrote:If your going to watch Prime with your daughter, note that it's more mature than Beast Machines! It has real Robo-Gore. Beast Machines is dark, yeah. But not as dark as prime.


Beast Machines isn't really as dark in my opinion, but it sure is creepier and more depressing than Prime. Beast Machines gave me nightmares as a child, especially that Blackarachnia. :-s
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:23 am

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Nutimus Prime wrote:When I say child I mean my preschool age daughter. So she definitely wont be taking to reading the subtitles lol.
Ah, right then.

Nutimus Prime wrote:Im already pushing some boundaries as far as what Im allowing her to watch, Transformers wise I mean, but she knows the difference between pretend and real so its working well at the moment. No Bay movies thats for sure lol.
Agreed. ;)

Nutimus Prime wrote:Ill be grabbing all 3 G1 Japanese series to watch for myself and when shes a bit older we can start them.
Right on.

Nutimus Prime wrote:As for Beast Machines I will definitely watch it after Beast Wars but Im debating her introduction to it. I may watch each episode, make sure its appropriate, then watch with her.
It's more like she may not quite understand all that's going on aside from "good guys fighting bad guys". If anything, she might be a bit bored with it if it doesn't keep her attention going.

Nutimus Prime wrote:When we finish Beast Wars/ Beast Machines I have some decisions to make. I wanted to watch all english series in chronological order but Im debating skipping over Robots in Disguise, Armada, Energon, Cybertron and Animated. If so we are jumping right to Prime and Rescue Bots. Im excited for Prime and Rescue Bots looks very fun for kids.
If you haven't seen them, don't skip them. Regardless of their quality, they are important parts of the Transformers brand history and were the biggest things of their time. And they're especially good for kids in their own ways:
  • Robots in Disguise is fun series with a lot of humor and a positive atmosphere
  • Armada has a Pokemon-esque feel to it with a collecting theme that's easy for kids to follow
  • Energon has the ironic benefit of being easy to entertain kids who like "good vs. bad" cartoon fights because that's pretty much all it is since it has no real plot whatsoever and thus no complicated story to keep track of. :P
  • Cybertron had a great number of things going for it to appeal to kids with a decent story structure and clear goal.
  • Animated was near-Beast Wars's level of quality storytelling about a young, relatable Optimus Prime and his team of unseasoned Autobots who grow and mature as character by overcoming impossible odds and having a blast of fun, action, and humor all rolled into one. :D

Oh, and there's also the four-episode preschool aged cartoon from the early-to-mid 2000s, Go-Bots, which had no war conflict and was made to tie in with the Playskool toyline of the time, Transformers: Go-Bots. Your daughter might really get a kick out of this. ;)

Rodimus Prime wrote:I think she would like Armada and Animated, especially the latter. It's very fun and visual. As for Beast Machines, definitely wait until later with it. You can watch it and make your own mind up about it, but it's not really for kids. Very dark and depressing. Personally, I think it's the worst TF series after Cybertron, but that's just my opinion.
PrymeStriker wrote:
BeastProwl wrote:If your going to watch Prime with your daughter, note that it's more mature than Beast Machines! It has real Robo-Gore. Beast Machines is dark, yeah. But not as dark as prime.


Beast Machines isn't really as dark in my opinion, but it sure is creepier and more depressing than Prime. Beast Machines gave me nightmares as a child, especially that Blackarachnia. :-s
I dunno what you guys are talking about, but I LOVED Beast Machines as kid (I was still in grade school when it came on), and I had those kinds of parent who shielded me from everything and anything objectionable. Yet, Beast Machines was considered okay and I came to like it even moreso as I got older and understood it better. 8)

I really dug the "alien" look of the Maximals (even Nightscream and Botanica, but NOT Rattrap's Robot Mode :roll: ), as my mind told me, "If an alien planet like Cybertron ever had organic fauna of its own, this is what they would likely look like." Like, Blackarachnia isn't just a Technorganic spider, but a Cybertronian Technorganic spider. :-B
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby PrymeStriker » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:42 am

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Sabrblade wrote:
PrymeStriker wrote:
BeastProwl wrote:If your going to watch Prime with your daughter, note that it's more mature than Beast Machines! It has real Robo-Gore. Beast Machines is dark, yeah. But not as dark as prime.


Beast Machines isn't really as dark in my opinion, but it sure is creepier and more depressing than Prime. Beast Machines gave me nightmares as a child, especially that Blackarachnia. :-s
I dunno what you guys are talking about, but I LOVED Beast Machines as kid (I was still in grade school when it came on), and I had those kinds of parent who shielded me from everything and anything objectionable. Yet, Beast Machines was considered okay and I came to like it even moreso as I got older and understood it better. 8)


When Beast Machines was out, I was in pre-school. I too had have parents that put me in a metaphorical bubble. Beast Wars was fine for me, probably because I was a little older when I actually bothered to look at more episodes. I have no problem watching Beast Machines now, but back then... :-s
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:11 pm

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PrymeStriker wrote:When Beast Machines was out, I was in pre-school.
Well, okay, that makes sense.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Nutimus Prime » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:38 pm

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So Robots in Disguise and Animated arent as bad as some people make them out to be? As long as my daughter likes it we will watch it then. Hub has been airing Animated in widescreen HD so I was hoping to see it rereleased or wait until I can record it.

I know the Unicron Trilogy has a lot of opinions on quality whether it be plot, animation, dubbing, etc. We may end up watching it. But every series we watch adds more time before I can watch the show I was interested in starting, Prime lol.

Is Prime that bad for young ones? Ive skimmed some episodes because Im buying the Blu-rays in anticipation of us starting it but I havent seen anything crazy yet. Like I said Ive only watched pieces at a time. I know Cliffjumper goes byebye in the first episode or so but I havent actually watched it yet. I guess Prime may be a show I watch each episode first then decide if its ok to watch with her.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:45 pm

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Nutimus Prime wrote:So Robots in Disguise and Animated arent as bad as some people make them out to be? As long as my daughter likes it we will watch it then. Hub has been airing Animated in widescreen HD so I was hoping to see it rereleased or wait until I can record it.

I know the Unicron Trilogy has a lot of opinions on quality whether it be plot, animation, dubbing, etc. We may end up watching it. But every series we watch adds more time before I can watch the show I was interested in starting, Prime lol.

Is Prime that bad for young ones? Ive skimmed some episodes because Im buying the Blu-rays in anticipation of us starting it but I havent seen anything crazy yet. Like I said Ive only watched pieces at a time. I know Cliffjumper goes byebye in the first episode or so but I havent actually watched it yet. I guess Prime may be a show I watch each episode first then decide if its ok to watch with her.
There are TONS of varying opinions on all of these shows, so your best bet would be to few them for yourself and form your own. ;)

For me, I hold no delusions over Robots in Disguise, it is nothing great. But I loved it as a kid and consider it a guilty pleasure of mine.

The Unicron Trilogy is a mixed bag. Armada got better as it went on, Energon got worse as it went on, and Cybertron was decent all around.

Go-Bots is just pure zany lulz and catchiness. :lol:

Animated really only gets hated on because of its cartoony art style and quirky characters. But it's really a diamond in the rough with great storytelling and characterization.

Prime is only really dark in certain episodes, but it's only the robots that the violence affects, so there's nothing overtly gruesome on the human side. And it does have its fair share of lighter-toned fun episodes with humor and such.
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Nutimus Prime » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:12 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:There are TONS of varying opinions on all of these shows, so your best bet would be to few them for yourself and form your own. ;)

For me, I hold no delusions over Robots in Disguise, it is nothing great. But I loved it as a kid and consider it a guilty pleasure of mine.

The Unicron Trilogy is a mixed bag. Armada got better as it went on, Energon got worse as it went on, and Cybertron was decent all around.

Go-Bots is just pure zany lulz and catchiness. :lol:

Animated really only gets hated on because of its cartoony art style and quirky characters. But it's really a diamond in the rough with great storytelling and characterization.

Prime is only really dark in certain episodes, but it's only the robots that the violence affects, so there's nothing overtly gruesome on the human side. And it does have its fair share of lighter-toned fun episodes with humor and such.


Welp Ill have to give RiD a shot. I was living in Germany when it aired and couldnt really find the time, or channel lol, to watch it. The Unicron Trilogy I wanted to watch but 156 episodes is a lot to go through before getting to what I want. :P And Ill be watching Energon ep 33 solo. Go-Bots Ill have to grab just to have a Saturday morning marathon. :)

Ill get Animated as soon as all the episodes have aired in widescreen. They may have already actually. The comparison shots show its much better than when it originally aired. In any case, since I have all the other series to watch first I should have plenty of time to get Animated.

Prime just seems like a well balanced show for all ages. Not that Id say the others werent but the art direction, voice acting, toys, etc. of Prime really hook me. So when Xmas arrives we may have started Prime, and if we did, she will have plenty of Prime toys as a surprise. :D Theyre sitting in the closet waiting to be opened and Im in the process of getting the other deluxes and voyagers.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:19 pm

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Nutimus Prime wrote:Welp Ill have to give RiD a shot. I was living in Germany when it aired and couldnt really find the time, or channel lol, to watch it.
Thing is, it was never released on DVD in the U.S. (only in the UK).

Nutimus Prime wrote:Go-Bots Ill have to grab just to have a Saturday morning marathon. :)
Well, it was only four episodes and released very weirdly. The first two episodes were on a pack-in VHS tape that came with one of the toys, and the other two episodes were aired on TV only twice and in Chicago and New York areas. But, all four can be found on YouTube or downloaded (in low quality only, though) here.

Nutimus Prime wrote:Ill get Animated as soon as all the episodes have aired in widescreen. They may have already actually. The comparison shots show its much better than when it originally aired. In any case, since I have all the other series to watch first I should have plenty of time to get Animated.
Don't forget Armada, Energon, and Cybertron, just for completion's sake. ;)

Nutimus Prime wrote:Prime just seems like a well balanced show for all ages. Not that Id say the others werent but the art direction, voice acting, toys, etc. of Prime really hook me. So when Xmas arrives we may have started Prime, and if we did, she will have plenty of Prime toys as a surprise. :D Theyre sitting in the closet waiting to be opened and Im in the process of getting the other deluxes and voyagers.
So is everyone else since all the good ones are so hard to find these days. :P
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Nutimus Prime » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:29 pm

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Sabrblade wrote:Thing is, RiD was never released on DVD in the U.S. (only in the UK).

Go-Bots was only four episodes and released very weirdly. The first two episodes were on a pack-in VHS tape that came with one of the toys, and the other two episodes were aired on TV only twice and in Chicago and New York areas. But, all four can be found on YouTube or downloaded (in low quality only, though) here.

Don't forget Armada, Energon, and Cybertron, just for completion's sake. ;)



Was debating Netflix for RiD but hadnt actually looked yet. I hate to say but I guess Ill have to turn to other sources for it. :(

Go-Bots I figured Id have to turn to alternate sources for.

I edited my post regarding Unicron Tiilogy, you just responded too fast. :P
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:57 pm

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Nutimus Prime wrote:Was debating Netflix for RiD but hadnt actually looked yet. I hate to say but I guess Ill have to turn to other sources for it. :(
Yeah, the only TF cartoons on Netflix are G1, Beast Wars, Prime, and (finally!) Rescue Bots.

However, this here is a playlist of all 39 episodes of RiD on YouTube. ;)

The Unicron Trilogy was released on DVD back in the mid-to-late 2000s. Armada came in two boxed sets, and both Energon and Cybertron each were in their own boxed sets.

Animated only had its first two seasons relased an only in SD widescreen, but I figured you'd go the HD widescreen versions the Hub is airing anyway. ;)

And then there's the DVDs for the three Japanese G1 cartoons that Shout! Factory released. Fair warning about these. The subtitles give several characters names that do not belong to them. They did this because Hasbro wanted to apply the names of their old 1987-1989 G1 toys to those who shared the same toy molds in Japan, despite the characters not being the same. :roll:

Also, this old thread here is a bit outdated, but might be of some use to ya. ;)
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Nutimus Prime » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:45 am

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Thanks. I spent a solid day or two organizing/ researching everything Transformers lol. Time well spent now that we are actually working our way through the backlog.

Regarding Netflix I meant the physical DVDs. They occasionally have obscure things in stock. Armada and Cybertron are there but Energon only has a compilation not the whole series. I have most everything from alternate sources anyway but I always try to go legit if available... or reasonably affordable.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:34 am

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Nutimus Prime wrote:Thanks. I spent a solid day or two organizing/ researching everything Transformers lol. Time well spent now that we are actually working our way through the backlog.

Regarding Netflix I meant the physical DVDs. They occasionally have obscure things in stock. Armada and Cybertron are there but Energon only has a compilation not the whole series. I have most everything from alternate sources anyway but I always try to go legit if available... or reasonably affordable.
well, that old topic link I sent you also has some YouTube playlists for certain series and such. ;)
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby xyl360 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:39 pm

I grew up with G1 and loved it. Sadly it hasn't aged well. Beast Wars is by far my absolute favorite series (and toyline for that matter, likely due to that fact :P).

Aside from the depth of character and excellent writing, I loved the look and feel of it. It had a really great, consistent style all its own. And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.

I hated Beast Machines at first, but it's grown on me now that I've gone back and watched it a few more times. All of the G1 references (Vector Sigma/the Key to Vector Sigma, the Plasma Energy Chamber etc.) are the best parts of that series in my opinion. The darker tone is nice too, even if I'm not a huge fan of the writing style and characterization. Either way, given the prophecy created in 'The Rebirth' (the very short 4th season of G1) in which Vector Sigma tells Optimus Prime something about having to merge the 'organic' and 'inorganic' or something along those lines (a plot point created for integrating human/Nebulon characters into the toys/TF's as Headmasters and Targetmasters), it kinda makes sense. If viewed as being a prophecy that was actually about the Technorganic reformatting of the planet and the Cybertronians, it all makes a lot more sense, particularly given the effects of the Key to Vector Sigma on organic matter (another tidbit cleverly integrated from G1 to fit the BM plot).

I guess what's most difficult for me about Beast Machines is the fact that it seems assumed that at the end everything is all rosey and peaceful now that Megatron is gone and all of Cybertron's inhabitants have been given bodies again and they're all technorganic. This ignores the political environment of Beast Wars on Cybertron completely, in which there was an uneasy treaty (the Pax Cybertronia) between the two factions (Predacons and Maximals) who were the decendents of the Decepticons and Autobots respectively. Yes, perhaps there would be peace for now now that Megatron has been eliminated, but for how long? Anyone who paid attention to Beast Wars would know that the Predacon Alliance was hardly content with how things were and planned to conquer Cybertron eventually and that the Maximals themselves were all too aware that the Predacons in general were not to be trusted. New bodies and a revitalized planet will not change that. If anything, assuming Energon for fuel is less of a concern given their now technorganic bodies, it simply increases the likelihood that the Predacons would stage an uprising to conquer the Maximals and take control of Cybertron. Galactic conquest and tyranny is in the very nature of the Decepticons and their descendents, the Predacons, are no different. I think the writers forgot that or simply chose to conveniently leave it out so that they could wrap up the G1 continuity as requested by Hasbro (who had already planned to drop the Transtech line/show, which was to be the successor to the Beast Machines story and continuation of the G1 continuity) and end everything happily.

Personally, I would have preferred that they ended it with Megatron winning at the end of Beast Machines if it was to be the end of the G1 continuity given the state the universe was in, but it's a kids show and you can't do that with a kids show.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:25 pm

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Very well put post, xyl360. :APPLAUSE: Though, a few thoughts of your thoughts.

xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.
Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other. ;)

xyl360 wrote:I guess what's most difficult for me about Beast Machines is the fact that it seems assumed that at the end everything is all rosey and peaceful now that Megatron is gone and all of Cybertron's inhabitants have been given bodies again and they're all technorganic. This ignores the political environment of Beast Wars on Cybertron completely, in which there was an uneasy treaty (the Pax Cybertronia) between the two factions (Predacons and Maximals) who were the decendents of the Decepticons and Autobots respectively. Yes, perhaps there would be peace for now now that Megatron has been eliminated, but for how long? Anyone who paid attention to Beast Wars would know that the Predacon Alliance was hardly content with how things were and planned to conquer Cybertron eventually and that the Maximals themselves were all too aware that the Predacons in general were not to be trusted. New bodies and a revitalized planet will not change that. If anything, assuming Energon for fuel is less of a concern given their now technorganic bodies, it simply increases the likelihood that the Predacons would stage an uprising to conquer the Maximals and take control of Cybertron. Galactic conquest and tyranny is in the very nature of the Decepticons and their descendents, the Predacons, are no different. I think the writers forgot that or simply chose to conveniently leave it out so that they could wrap up the G1 continuity as requested by Hasbro (who had already planned to drop the Transtech line/show, which was to be the successor to the Beast Machines story and continuation of the G1 continuity) and end everything happily.
Regarding the writers forgetting the political nature of Cybertron during the BW cartoon, thing is, when BM was created, the authority and control of the series were handed off to a new team of writers and editors, with only a few of the same people involved in BW remaining on board for BM. Specifically, the head writers for BW, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, were not involved in BM. Instead, BM's story was crafted by the likes of Bob N. Skir and Marty Isenberg, neither of whom had worked on Beast Wars and so weren't entirely aware of the political state Bob and Larry had set up in the previous cartoon. While they could have gone back to review what had come before, they were instructed by Hasbro to start the series with a clean slate.

Regarding the end result making Cybertron vulnerable to attack by the Predacons, this brings up two things.

First, in an early draft for BM, there was going to be both Maximals and Predacons fighting against the Vehicons together to take back the planet from Megatron, rather than just having the Maximals do that by themselves. Had this come about, there would have likely been a shift in the Predacon politics to have them ally themselves with their former enemies to save the planet both sides had come to call home the new usurper who had seized control of it. Though this story concept ultimately did not come about, there are some bits of this that still linger in canonical material, such as the BM Maximal Buzzsaw toy being the same character as the BW Predacon Buzz Saw toy. ;)

Secondly, I both agree and disagree with the notion that Cybertron was rendered even more vulnerable to enemy attack by the end of BM. Why both? Well, simply put, I must ask you an honest question. Have you ever read the BotCon comic series "Transformers: The Wreckers" (later retitled "Transformers: Universe - Featuring the Wreckers")? In this story, it is set both during and afterthe Beast Machines cartoon, reveals several concepts not told in the show itself, and ultimately led to a planned Quintesson invasion of Cybertron... one that was overwhelming the planet, and yet ultimately crushed by a colossal series of counterstrikes by so many parties fighting to save the technorganic Cybertron. It is a glorious read and helps to fill in some blanks of the show, as well as creating a few surprises along the way (like the revelation of Optimus Primal's mission to reformat Cybertron having been a ploy entriely orchestrated by the Quintessons using the Oracle to manipulate him so as to make the planet more vulnerable to attack and thus easier to conquer... only for the technorganic reformat revealed to have also been a Primus-ordained plan unbeknownst to every and all factions).
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Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby xyl360 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:56 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.
Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other. ;)
Actually, most of the references in Beast Wars to G1 are taken directly from the G1 cartoon. The only one I'm aware of that stands out as being from the comics is Ravage speaking, but this is easily explained in the fact that he was reformatted (new software) and rebuilt (new hardware) as a Predacon, meaning they probably just installed a voicebox ;).

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:I guess what's most difficult for me about Beast Machines is the fact that it seems assumed that at the end everything is all rosey and peaceful now that Megatron is gone and all of Cybertron's inhabitants have been given bodies again and they're all technorganic. This ignores the political environment of Beast Wars on Cybertron completely, in which there was an uneasy treaty (the Pax Cybertronia) between the two factions (Predacons and Maximals) who were the decendents of the Decepticons and Autobots respectively. Yes, perhaps there would be peace for now now that Megatron has been eliminated, but for how long? Anyone who paid attention to Beast Wars would know that the Predacon Alliance was hardly content with how things were and planned to conquer Cybertron eventually and that the Maximals themselves were all too aware that the Predacons in general were not to be trusted. New bodies and a revitalized planet will not change that. If anything, assuming Energon for fuel is less of a concern given their now technorganic bodies, it simply increases the likelihood that the Predacons would stage an uprising to conquer the Maximals and take control of Cybertron. Galactic conquest and tyranny is in the very nature of the Decepticons and their descendents, the Predacons, are no different. I think the writers forgot that or simply chose to conveniently leave it out so that they could wrap up the G1 continuity as requested by Hasbro (who had already planned to drop the Transtech line/show, which was to be the successor to the Beast Machines story and continuation of the G1 continuity) and end everything happily.
Regarding the writers forgetting the political nature of Cybertron during the BW cartoon, thing is, when BM was created, the authority and control of the series were handed off to a new team of writers and editors, with only a few of the same people involved in BW remaining on board for BM. Specifically, the head writers for BW, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, were not involved in BM. Instead, BM's story was crafted by the likes of Bob N. Skir and Marty Isenberg, neither of whom had worked on Beast Wars and so weren't entirely aware of the political state Bob and Larry had set up in the previous cartoon. While they could have gone back to review what had come before, they were instructed by Hasbro to start the series with a clean slate.
Yes, I'm quite aware of what the interviews on the DVD's say, but they're lying, at least partially. There's way too much that took place in Beast Wars that they got precisely right that they could not have guessed at were they really not at all familiar with Beast Wars, including the flashbacks to the events at the end of Beast Wars where Megatron is imprisoned on the hull of the Autobot shuttle. That's neither here nor there though, and I do understand what you're saying and I understand why they did it the way they did (they also didn't want to confuse kids by introducing 3 factions, i.e. Maximals, Vehicons AND Predacons, something they mention in those same interviews, though they did slip up at least once, where Rattrap and Cheetor are dealing with Tankor (Rhinox) and one of them says something like "Imagine if he were a Predacon").

Sabrblade wrote:Regarding the end result making Cybertron vulnerable to attack by the Predacons, this brings up two things.

First, in an early draft for BM, there was going to be both Maximals and Predacons fighting against the Vehicons together to take back the planet from Megatron, rather than just having the Maximals do that by themselves. Had this come about, there would have likely been a shift in the Predacon politics to have them ally themselves with their former enemies to save the planet both sides had come to call home the new usurper who had seized control of it. Though this story concept ultimately did not come about, there are some bits of this that still linger in canonical material, such as the BM Maximal Buzzsaw toy being the same character as the BW Predacon Buzz Saw toy. ;)
Yep, I know. I think it would have been super awesome, but see above, I know why they didn't do it (but the story would have worked better if they had).

Sabrblade wrote:Secondly, I both agree and disagree with the notion that Cybertron was rendered even more vulnerable to enemy attack by the end of BM. Why both? Well, simply put, I must ask you an honest question. Have you ever read the BotCon comic series "Transformers: The Wreckers" (later retitled "Transformers: Universe - Featuring the Wreckers")? In this story, it is set both during and afterthe Beast Machines cartoon, reveals several concepts not told in the show itself, and ultimately led to a planned Quintesson invasion of Cybertron... one that was overwhelming the planet, and yet ultimately crushed by a colossal series of counterstrikes by so many parties fighting to save the technorganic Cybertron. It is a glorious read and helps to fill in some blanks of the show, as well as creating a few surprises along the way (like the revelation of Optimus Primal's mission to reformat Cybertron having been a ploy entriely orchestrated by the Quintessons using the Oracle to manipulate him so as to make the planet more vulnerable to attack and thus easier to conquer... only for the technorganic reformat revealed to have also been a Primus-ordained plan unbeknownst to every and all factions).
Yes, I've read it. I really liked the Dreamwave Botcon Beast Wars comics, though there are elements I despise (like all of the G1 'survivors' like the Wreckers etc.), though I know that was just good ol' G1 fanwank.

I also didn't particularly like the references to Primus, since the only references in the G1 shows to him (including Beast Wars/Beast Machines) is in name alone and not once is he referenced as 'being Cybertron' so it was always assumed that he was some great leader from the past or a messiah-type figure to the Cybertronians.

This does spark another thought I've often had though, which I wrote about in a fanfic concept. The Autobots, ever since the G1 movie, always say "Til' all are one!". In reality, if taken literally, then that was precisely what Megatron was trying to do, unite all of the sparks on Cybertron and make them 'ONE' as in one single entity. In fact, to quote Beast Machines Megatron: "...Uniting every spark on Cybertron into one perfect being: ME!", though that obviously was likely not the writers' intent at any point in the series, but food for philosophical thought nonetheless.

In addition, I've had the idea that if Megatron had succeeded, but wanted to consume the Matrix itself and chose an opportune moment in history from which to retrieve it (i.e. following the death of Optimus Prime when it was passed to their new leader), he could have (assuming he has taken Cybertron as his new body a-la Unicron in the G1 series, Ghost in the Machine I believe?) used transwarp cells to transport himself, this planet-sized Transformer who now consumes matter the same way his super-spark consumes the sparks (souls) of Cybertronians in Beast Machines, back to the year 2005 when Optimus died in order to attempt to intercept the Matrix and consume the TF's and/or the Matrix (though admittedly he did ask Megatron/Galvatron to destroy it as I recall). Even the name would fit given 'Uni' means 'one' (i.e. Unicron) and that he was intent on consuming all life in the universe, including every spark on Cybertron.

Sorry, way OT but it's a topic I'm kinda passionate about :P.
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:45 am

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xyl360 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.
Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other. ;)
Actually, most of the references in Beast Wars to G1 are taken directly from the G1 cartoon. The only one I'm aware of that stands out as being from the comics is Ravage speaking, but this is easily explained in the fact that he was reformatted (new software) and rebuilt (new hardware) as a Predacon, meaning they probably just installed a voicebox ;).
Though most were indeed taken from the cartoon, the BW cartoon officially treats the Generation 1 era as Arthurian legend, so as to not pick either the cartoon or the comic as being more truthful than its counterpart. So, they took elements from both and created a continuity that's a mixture of both.

From TFWiki.net's "Beast Wars coninuity" page:
Beast Wars storylines are, in general, a subsection of the Generation 1 continuity family. But the Beast Wars cartoon does not adhere to any particular version of Generation 1 continuity that has been seen; instead it borrows facets from many and composites them into a sort of vague "mythology" that forms the Beast Wars characters' past.
Though the entire show takes place millions of years ago, the characters originated from a point 300 years into the future of Generation 1. Which Generation 1 is never made clear; the cartoon draws elements from both the original G1 comics and cartoons, and the writers stated that in the context of the cartoon, the events of the various Generation 1 stories should be regarded as something akin to Arthurian legend, rather than an exact history.


xyl360 wrote:Yes, I'm quite aware of what the interviews on the DVD's say, but they're lying, at least partially. There's way too much that took place in Beast Wars that they got precisely right that they could not have guessed at were they really not at all familiar with Beast Wars, including the flashbacks to the events at the end of Beast Wars where Megatron is imprisoned on the hull of the Autobot shuttle. That's neither here nor there though, and I do understand what you're saying and I understand why they did it the way they did (they also didn't want to confuse kids by introducing 3 factions, i.e. Maximals, Vehicons AND Predacons, something they mention in those same interviews, though they did slip up at least once, where Rattrap and Cheetor are dealing with Tankor (Rhinox) and one of them says something like "Imagine if he were a Predacon").
Well, they obviously would have had to know SOME details of the BW cartoon and its event in order to make BM match up with it. I didn't mean that they were completely in the dark of the BW cartoon, just that they may not have been aware of some of the more subtle specifics like the political state the BW cartoon hinted at.

xyl360 wrote:Yes, I've read it. I really liked the Dreamwave Botcon Beast Wars comics, though there are elements I despise (like all of the G1 'survivors' like the Wreckers etc.), though I know that was just good ol' G1 fanwank.
3H, not Dreamwave. ;)

xyl360 wrote:I also didn't particularly like the references to Primus, since the only references in the G1 shows to him (including Beast Wars/Beast Machines) is in name alone and not once is he referenced as 'being Cybertron' so it was always assumed that he was some great leader from the past or a messiah-type figure to the Cybertronians.
That's another one of the elements taken from the comic instead of the cartoon and makes BW its own unique continity instead of being one that takes the G1 cartoon as gospel. ;)

However, an instance in which Primus is hinted at being the Cybertronian god is in the "Nemesis" two-parter, in which the Covenant of Primus is treated as an analogy to the Bible, in which the Covenant is to Primus as the Bible is to God. ;)

xyl360 wrote:This does spark another thought I've often had though, which I wrote about in a fanfic concept. The Autobots, ever since the G1 movie, always say "Til' all are one!". In reality, if taken literally, then that was precisely what Megatron was trying to do, unite all of the sparks on Cybertron and make them 'ONE' as in one single entity. In fact, to quote Beast Machines Megatron: "...Uniting every spark on Cybertron into one perfect being: ME!", though that obviously was likely not the writers' intent at any point in the series, but food for philosophical thought nonetheless.
Ever read the awesome that is "Singularity Ablyss"? In that story, which is set during the BM episode "Spark of Darkness", Megatron, while in a state of limbo until his spakr finally finds a new host body in the Diagnostic Drone he gets stuck in, is guided through the Allspark by Rhinox acting as a spirit guide for him, and everything Rhinox show him he misinterprets into him thinking he's the most important being of all (like, when he's shown that every spark pulses to the same cosmic rhythm, showing that all sparks are equal, he misinterprets this as thinking all sparks pulse to his own rhythm). From this, he takes it upon himself to untie all the sparks into his own very being. Rather than let himself become aprt of the collective, he set out to make himself become the collective. 8)

xyl360 wrote:In addition, I've had the idea that if Megatron had succeeded, but wanted to consume the Matrix itself and chose an opportune moment in history from which to retrieve it (i.e. following the death of Optimus Prime when it was passed to their new leader), he could have (assuming he has taken Cybertron as his new body a-la Unicron in the G1 series, Ghost in the Machine I believe?) used transwarp cells to transport himself, this planet-sized Transformer who now consumes matter the same way his super-spark consumes the sparks (souls) of Cybertronians in Beast Machines, back to the year 2005 when Optimus died in order to attempt to intercept the Matrix and consume the TF's and/or the Matrix (though admittedly he did ask Megatron/Galvatron to destroy it as I recall). Even the name would fit given 'Uni' means 'one' (i.e. Unicron) and that he was intent on consuming all life in the universe, including every spark on Cybertron.
...I don't remember him wanting that Matrix. He was after the Allspark, the afterlife dimension of all sparks, which is also known as the "Matrix". The physical talisman of G1 was a window to this place, but that'd do Megatron little good if he's got access to the Oracle. ;)

xyl360 wrote:Sorry, way OT but it's a topic I'm kinda passionate about :P.
Me too. ;)

Also, we do a LOT of winking around here. :P
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Re: Beastwars: help me not care about how its aged!

Postby xyl360 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:40 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:And of course, as a G1 fan, I LOVED all the references to G1 and the fact that the writers chose to make it take place in the G1 continuity, some 3 centuries after the end of the Great War.
Albeit, without tying it directly to either version (Sunbow cartoon or Marvel comic), preferring to remain vague on the matter by having it exist within its own unique G1 continuity that borrows elements from both instead of favoring one over the other. ;)
Actually, most of the references in Beast Wars to G1 are taken directly from the G1 cartoon. The only one I'm aware of that stands out as being from the comics is Ravage speaking, but this is easily explained in the fact that he was reformatted (new software) and rebuilt (new hardware) as a Predacon, meaning they probably just installed a voicebox ;).
Though most were indeed taken from the cartoon, the BW cartoon officially treats the Generation 1 era as Arthurian legend, so as to not pick either the cartoon or the comic as being more truthful than its counterpart. So, they took elements from both and created a continuity that's a mixture of both.

From TFWiki.net's "Beast Wars coninuity" page:
Beast Wars storylines are, in general, a subsection of the Generation 1 continuity family. But the Beast Wars cartoon does not adhere to any particular version of Generation 1 continuity that has been seen; instead it borrows facets from many and composites them into a sort of vague "mythology" that forms the Beast Wars characters' past.
Though the entire show takes place millions of years ago, the characters originated from a point 300 years into the future of Generation 1. Which Generation 1 is never made clear; the cartoon draws elements from both the original G1 comics and cartoons, and the writers stated that in the context of the cartoon, the events of the various Generation 1 stories should be regarded as something akin to Arthurian legend, rather than an exact history.
Yes, but it cites no specifics. TFWiki wasn't written by the authors after all. I'd love to see some specific details on what it draws from the comics.

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:Yes, I'm quite aware of what the interviews on the DVD's say, but they're lying, at least partially. There's way too much that took place in Beast Wars that they got precisely right that they could not have guessed at were they really not at all familiar with Beast Wars, including the flashbacks to the events at the end of Beast Wars where Megatron is imprisoned on the hull of the Autobot shuttle. That's neither here nor there though, and I do understand what you're saying and I understand why they did it the way they did (they also didn't want to confuse kids by introducing 3 factions, i.e. Maximals, Vehicons AND Predacons, something they mention in those same interviews, though they did slip up at least once, where Rattrap and Cheetor are dealing with Tankor (Rhinox) and one of them says something like "Imagine if he were a Predacon").
Well, they obviously would have had to know SOME details of the BW cartoon and its event in order to make BM match up with it. I didn't mean that they were completely in the dark of the BW cartoon, just that they may not have been aware of some of the more subtle specifics like the political state the BW cartoon hinted at.

xyl360 wrote:Yes, I've read it. I really liked the Dreamwave Botcon Beast Wars comics, though there are elements I despise (like all of the G1 'survivors' like the Wreckers etc.), though I know that was just good ol' G1 fanwank.
3H, not Dreamwave. ;)
Ah, that's right, don't know why I was thinking Dreamwave.

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:I also didn't particularly like the references to Primus, since the only references in the G1 shows to him (including Beast Wars/Beast Machines) is in name alone and not once is he referenced as 'being Cybertron' so it was always assumed that he was some great leader from the past or a messiah-type figure to the Cybertronians.
That's another one of the elements taken from the comic instead of the cartoon and makes BW its own unique continity instead of being one that takes the G1 cartoon as gospel. ;)

However, an instance in which Primus is hinted at being the Cybertronian god is in the "Nemesis" two-parter, in which the Covenant of Primus is treated as an analogy to the Bible, in which the Covenant is to Primus as the Bible is to God. ;)
Right, him being God is fine, but again, that does not mean that he is Cybertron. He could have simply been the first Cybertronian for all we know. It doesn't give us enough to go on.

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:This does spark another thought I've often had though, which I wrote about in a fanfic concept. The Autobots, ever since the G1 movie, always say "Til' all are one!". In reality, if taken literally, then that was precisely what Megatron was trying to do, unite all of the sparks on Cybertron and make them 'ONE' as in one single entity. In fact, to quote Beast Machines Megatron: "...Uniting every spark on Cybertron into one perfect being: ME!", though that obviously was likely not the writers' intent at any point in the series, but food for philosophical thought nonetheless.
Ever read the awesome that is "Singularity Ablyss"? In that story, which is set during the BM episode "Spark of Darkness", Megatron, while in a state of limbo until his spakr finally finds a new host body in the Diagnostic Drone he gets stuck in, is guided through the Allspark by Rhinox acting as a spirit guide for him, and everything Rhinox show him he misinterprets into him thinking he's the most important being of all (like, when he's shown that every spark pulses to the same cosmic rhythm, showing that all sparks are equal, he misinterprets this as thinking all sparks pulse to his own rhythm). From this, he takes it upon himself to untie all the sparks into his own very being. Rather than let himself become aprt of the collective, he set out to make himself become the collective. 8)
Cool, no I hadn't checked that out. Makes a lot of sense though :).

Sabrblade wrote:
xyl360 wrote:In addition, I've had the idea that if Megatron had succeeded, but wanted to consume the Matrix itself and chose an opportune moment in history from which to retrieve it (i.e. following the death of Optimus Prime when it was passed to their new leader), he could have (assuming he has taken Cybertron as his new body a-la Unicron in the G1 series, Ghost in the Machine I believe?) used transwarp cells to transport himself, this planet-sized Transformer who now consumes matter the same way his super-spark consumes the sparks (souls) of Cybertronians in Beast Machines, back to the year 2005 when Optimus died in order to attempt to intercept the Matrix and consume the TF's and/or the Matrix (though admittedly he did ask Megatron/Galvatron to destroy it as I recall). Even the name would fit given 'Uni' means 'one' (i.e. Unicron) and that he was intent on consuming all life in the universe, including every spark on Cybertron.
...I don't remember him wanting that Matrix. He was after the Allspark, the afterlife dimension of all sparks, which is also known as the "Matrix". The physical talisman of G1 was a window to this place, but that'd do Megatron little good if he's got access to the Oracle. ;)
Yep, I think it's kinda hard to reconcile the '2 Matrices' in these continuities. The Matrix is the afterlife "where all are one", yet it's never made clear whether it is the same Matrix as the Matrix of Leadership. I always assumed that somehow it was (i.e. the 'Spark of Sparks' where all sparks go when their bots go offline).
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