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Now what we all know and are aware of this ko Scorponok being out there. Is anybody in here going to buy it???

Bumblevivisector wrote:

xyl360 wrote:I hate to say it, but I actually like the plastic colors on the KO better. They seem much more vivid (the purple and the green).

Agreed; I like my greens to be GREEN, not chartreuse.

Although...could the original just be yellower because it's suffered photodegredation over the last 26 years? I've seen that happen to more shades of blue than you'd expect: not only the baby blue of Hotspot and Scourge, but even Cobra Commander! Could light green plastics yellow just as easily, but go unnoticed?

No, it's not color degradation. I had Scorponok as a kid, and his colors are indeed exactly as pictured for the legit version, sickly green and all.

Seibertron wrote:KOs of any kind are very bad for the long run of this brand. What you guys have failed to mention is what happens when the KOs are passed off as originals, intentionally or mistakenly. That is unfair to unsuspecting collectors who are looking to obtain one of these figures.

Sorry if I'm breaking any etiquette by responding to such an old post. The topic isn't locked down yet, though, so I'm hoping it's still fair game. (My first post here, and I'm arguing with one of the site owners. Hmm. Not going to make too many friends.)

To address the point: Yes, there are folks out there who are selling minty-new G1 knockoffs and trying to pass them off as vintage G1 units. That's a real shame, and they should feel horrible about it. That's not a reason to decry the existence of the knockoffs. Me, I bought up every official Hasbro reissue ever released, and then all the Takara ones never released in America, until they stopped producing them. Now I buy the high-quality third-party stuff because I love getting brand-new G1 Transformers, and the knockoffs are the only game in town. If it weren't for the knockoffs, I'd never have gotten a chance to own "reissues" of Cyclonus, Scourge, Springer, Sunstreaker, Wheeljack, and many more of my favorite toys.

I've owned every Hasbro G1 Transformers figure since 2007 before the KOs confused the market. I'm very lucky that I know for certainty that everything I own is original because the KOs weren't hitting the market yet. I think it is extremely unfortunate that collectors have to deal with this crap and aren't able to enjoy collecting unadulterated the way that I was able to.

Isn't it better to have a choice? Prior to 2007, you only bought official toys because the knockoffs weren't available. I have the official reissues of Rumble and Frenzy, but I don't like that their leg stickers are missing. If I still want to go hunt down the knockoffs so I can have something that's closer to the toys that were part of my childhood experience, why shouldn't I be able to? And what about the knockoffs that have no G1 equivalent? I think the Mirage made almost entirely of clear plastic is one of the most awesome things in the Universe. Finally, what if I want to buy a G1 toy for my little boy? Isn't it a good thing that I can get him a brand-new Swoop (his favorite Dinobot) for around $40 and I don't have to worry about it having been repaired with super glue or being made from brittle 30-year-old plastic?

It's one thing when you knowingly buy a KO, but when someone sells their collection later down the road and fails to mention that the item was a KO, or when their storage unit goes up for auction because they forgot to make a few payments or, god forbid, they pass away and their loved ones sell their collection, these KOs will inevitably end up being passed off as originals sooner or later.

That's like saying that novels or comic books should never be reprinted because somebody, somewhere, might one day accidentally mistake them for a first printing.

Rationalizing that KOs are a good thing in any manner is a selfish view and a view that fails to see the big problem in the long run. It could also be argued the same about official reissues, but they're quality items and in many cases the reissues retain the value of the originals or even surpass their value in some cases. There is a big difference between a quality official reissue and an unofficial unlicensed counterfeit product that doesn't have to meet certain quality standards.

If the unlicensed G1 reissues were complete garbage, though, there would be no market for them and we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it. There have been hundreds of poor-quality G1 knockoffs over the years. I have a fake Mirage in yellow and green whose legs are a single piece of plastic. I have an oversized Darkwing and Dreadwind who can't even combine together because their plastic is so warped. These are not a threat to anyone, except perhaps for underaged children who accidentally find them and believe them to be legitimate playthings.

My point is that the guys producing the knockoffs don't have to adhere to certain standards, but you'd better believe they're producing high-quality stuff. I wouldn't be buying all the ones I can get my hands on if they weren't top notch.

Also, Hasbro conforms to safety regulations to be in compliance with laws that protect little kids. These laws are there for a good reason, but they do not serve collectors. Most of Hasbro's G1 reissues have been inauthentic in some way or another, with preposterously-long missiles or unchromed weapons or even the wrong color schemes. If the goal is to buy a toy that is close to what was available in the 1980's so all of us can be transported back to a simpler time when we were carefree kids, then the knockoffs do a better job of doing that.

We collectors have a huge responsibility to make sure that future generations of Transformers fans get to enjoy quality Transformers products without having every item run the risk of being a faulty or flawed or counterfeit product. Maybe some of you don't care about this and only care about what you can afford or get your hands on. There is a much bigger picture regarding all of this. I hope that those of you who think that counterfeit products belong in this market will take some time to ponder what items like that do to water down this brand and the enjoyment of collectors in the long run.

This paragraph is the real sticking point for me, and what I felt strongly needed to be challenged. I went through the whole rigamarole of signing up for this message board just so I could come here and say this, so I hope everybody listens up.

If you are a collector, it's your responsibility to know what you're buying. It's just like buying a house or buying a car. Yes, there are people out there who will try to screw you over. The realtor might neglect to mention the leaky pipes and mold in the basement. The guy at the used car lot might have cracked open the odometer and won't mention the faulty transmission. If you go ahead and sign on the dotted line anyway, before you've done the research, then it's your own fault for being a foolish consumer.

Well, the same goes for the fake Transformers out there. As a knowledgeable fan, I can tell you that there are differences in EVERY SINGLE one of the high-quality knockoffs when compared to the vintage G1 units. Differences in both the packaging (misspellings, funky fonts) and the toys themselves. Differences that anyone can readily identify if you know what to look for. Yes, you might have to go online and look at some of the sites that help identify the fakes. No, I don't expect you to memorize every single mold difference. The point is that the information is out there and easy to find. People who allow themselves to be deceived, despite all the resources available, have nobody but themselves to blame. I'm sorry, but they don't have my sympathy.

As for "watering down the brand" and ruining the "enjoyment of collectors," I can only speak for myself, but I'm the biggest G1 fan I know, and I still get a tremendous amount of enjoyment from the high-quality knockoffs. I'm not under any delusions that they're the real thing, but they're so close to the real thing that it hardly matters to me. They're real enough to go on my display shelf and collect dust, but they're inexpensive enough that I don't panic if my five-year-old boy wants to play with them sometimes.

What's funny is that people get all up in arms over what's official and what's not. Tomorrow, Takara could buy out the company making all these high-quality knockoffs, and suddenly they'd be official. The day before BotCon 2014, Hasbro could cancel their partnership with Fun Publications, and suddenly all the convention exclusive toys in their possession would be unlicensed. I'm not saying this is likely to happen, but it illustrates that the only difference between what's officially-sanctioned and what's not is what a few guys in business suits happen to think at any given moment.

If Hasbro and Takara recognized that there was still a tremendous market for G1 reissues and continued to produce them, I'd be buying the official toys. They're not producing them, though. If I want a minty-fresh reissue of Octane or Gnaw for my display shelf, then I have to go with the knockoff because it's my only option. I'm a consumer and I have disposable income to spend. I still buy official toys when they grab my interest, but the knockoff guys must want my money more than Hasbro and Takara do, because they're the ones producing toys that I want to spend most of my money on!

(Sorry, I don't have some gigantic image to use as a signature. I'm accustomed to Usenet where we use words to get our points across.)


Zob

I guess nobody can buy this anymore, it shows now a message :
sorry.sales has been overdue.

lol? did it sold out or they just canceled production?

somebody please PM me with information on where to get this. also, it should be noted that there was a set of KO headmasters that had a G1 skorponok and Black Zarak head in the set. i collect KO's and real transformers. i think its nioce to be able to have a toy in your collection that you otherwise wouldnt be able to afford, but when people try to pass them off as real is where i draw the line.

Zobovor wrote:*snipped the awesome*

First of all, welcome. I remember you from Alt.Toys.Transformers.
Second, you sir are my current personal hero.

This was a rational and well thought out post. I absolutely agree with you and quite frankly I'm tired of people making me feel bad for buying 3rd party, whether it's just an accessory or a full figure (an original design), or a replica copy. It's bad enough to be belittled for my opinion on many things, by many people (such is the nature of the internet), but being told I'm wrong for spending my money how I see fit, something I worked hard for, is just wrong. That's my business. It could be Hasbro's business, but they choose not to act.

I'll buy official whenever possible, I have no problem doing that. I will buy 3rd party if it fills a void or need. Such as the accessory sets coming for Hoist and Trailbreaker. Hasbro should've made those part of the figures as is. 3rd party wouldn't have a market if Hasbro and Takara hadn't created it. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Autobot032 wrote:

Zobovor wrote:*snipped the awesome*

First of all, welcome. I remember you from Alt.Toys.Transformers.
Second, you sir are my current personal hero.

This was a rational and well thought out post.

Welcome Zob.

I also completely agree with what was said and consider yours to be the only properly thought out post in this long and pointless thread.

Autobot032 wrote:I'm tired of people making me feel bad for buying 3rd party, whether it's just an accessory or a full figure (an original design), or a replica copy. It's bad enough to be belittled for my opinion on many things, by many people (such is the nature of the internet), but being told I'm wrong for spending my money how I see fit, something I worked hard for, is just wrong. That's my business. It could be Hasbro's business, but they choose not to act.

I'll buy official whenever possible, I have no problem doing that. I will buy 3rd party if it fills a void or need. Such as the accessory sets coming for Hoist and Trailbreaker. Hasbro should've made those part of the figures as is. 3rd party wouldn't have a market if Hasbro and Takara hadn't created it. Necessity is the mother of invention.

This, completely this!

I'd happily save money and just go with Hasbro, but they don't even come close to catering to me, so 3P's are getting a lot more of my cash. I've only ever bought two KO's (that I know of), first was unintentional and when I realised I just thought "Duh, it was bloody obvious", and the second was on purpose because the official figure was ridiculously over priced.

Neither seller was trying to pass their products of as genuine, so I was okay with buying them.

Could people please stop lumping 3rd Party stuff in with KOs and pretend like they're the exact same thing? I'm getting really tiered and sick of that, my FP Insecticons aren't KOs of anything, neither my Protector or City Commander.

Dead Metal wrote:Could people please stop lumping 3rd Party stuff in with KOs and pretend like they're the exact same thing? I'm getting really tiered and sick of that, my FP Insecticons aren't KOs of anything, neither my Protector or City Commander.

I absolutely agree. I've owned KOs in the past and 3rd party products are definitely not KOs. However, since 3rd party and KO toys are meant to replace the real deal and they're both made by a 3rd party, that's part of the reason they're labeled as such.

Autobot032 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Could people please stop lumping 3rd Party stuff in with KOs and pretend like they're the exact same thing? I'm getting really tiered and sick of that, my FP Insecticons aren't KOs of anything, neither my Protector or City Commander.

I absolutely agree. I've owned KOs in the past and 3rd party products are definitely not KOs. However, since 3rd party and KO toys are meant to replace the real deal and they're both made by a 3rd party, that's part of the reason they're labeled as such.

3rd party aren't really meant to replace the real deal, they're meant to fill a hole or to improve upon something. Then of course there are the exceptions like Warbot defender (designed to replace both Classics Springers after Hasbro stated they wouldn't make a real one), the iGear Seekers, but those are KOs anyway, and the recent combiners. But originally the whole thing started to improve Hasbro'S offerings.
KOs are made to fool people into buying them believing they are the real thing, like Asylum movies. Just we're usually smart enough to not be fooled.

Dead Metal wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Could people please stop lumping 3rd Party stuff in with KOs and pretend like they're the exact same thing? I'm getting really tiered and sick of that, my FP Insecticons aren't KOs of anything, neither my Protector or City Commander.

I absolutely agree. I've owned KOs in the past and 3rd party products are definitely not KOs. However, since 3rd party and KO toys are meant to replace the real deal and they're both made by a 3rd party, that's part of the reason they're labeled as such.

3rd party aren't really meant to replace the real deal, they're meant to fill a hole or to improve upon something. Then of course there are the exceptions like Warbot defender (designed to replace both Classics Springers after Hasbro stated they wouldn't make a real one), the iGear Seekers, but those are KOs anyway, and the recent combiners. But originally the whole thing started to improve Hasbro'S offerings.
KOs are made to fool people into buying them believing they are the real thing, like Asylum movies. Just we're usually smart enough to not be fooled.

Believe me, I do know the difference.

And I still stand by my statements in my previous post.
Whether it's a KO maker or an actual "3rd partier" such as FansProject, they are neither Hasbro nor Takara, thus they are a 3rd party producer of transforming toys made to cash in on the real deal. And I'd say 3rd party were always meant to replace the real deal. You mentioned Warbot Defender, which is an excellent example, but I offer this: Classics Hot Rod (Rodimus) on his own is not the greatest figure. FP's TFX Protector trailer add on envelopes the figure and changes his look and posability radically. Once he's wrapped up in that trailer in vehicle mode, he's no longer a car. Once he's wrapped up in the armor, he's no longer Hot Rod. He's become something entirely new. While the core robot is hidden amongst all of that, he's still Protector when it's all said and done. Classics Rodimus has been replaced by Protector.

Same with City Commander/D.I.A.Clone Commander and the Classics Optimus mold. And the upcoming MakeToys NOVA Prime. It's going to use parts of the Hasbro mold to create a new base figure that's fully integrated into the trailer, there by replacing the use of a Hasbro item. Hasbro's items were improved upon, but they've become non existent inside some of these 3rd party pieces.

It's like redoing a house, whether it's vinyl siding or whatever. Once you're done, it doesn't look the same and if you add on a piece that wasn't there in the beginning, you've permanently modified it. All that's left of the original house is it's frame. It has effectively become a new house with all the new materials replacing the old.

So, again, I say, 3rd party has really replaced Hasbro.

Autobot032 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:Could people please stop lumping 3rd Party stuff in with KOs and pretend like they're the exact same thing? I'm getting really tiered and sick of that, my FP Insecticons aren't KOs of anything, neither my Protector or City Commander.

I absolutely agree. I've owned KOs in the past and 3rd party products are definitely not KOs. However, since 3rd party and KO toys are meant to replace the real deal and they're both made by a 3rd party, that's part of the reason they're labeled as such.

3rd party aren't really meant to replace the real deal, they're meant to fill a hole or to improve upon something. Then of course there are the exceptions like Warbot defender (designed to replace both Classics Springers after Hasbro stated they wouldn't make a real one), the iGear Seekers, but those are KOs anyway, and the recent combiners. But originally the whole thing started to improve Hasbro'S offerings.
KOs are made to fool people into buying them believing they are the real thing, like Asylum movies. Just we're usually smart enough to not be fooled.

Believe me, I do know the difference.

And I still stand by my statements in my previous post.
Whether it's a KO maker or an actual "3rd partier" such as FansProject, they are neither Hasbro nor Takara, thus they are a 3rd party producer of transforming toys made to cash in on the real deal. And I'd say 3rd party were always meant to replace the real deal. You mentioned Warbot Defender, which is an excellent example, but I offer this: Classics Hot Rod (Rodimus) on his own is not the greatest figure. FP's TFX Protector trailer add on envelopes the figure and changes his look and posability radically. Once he's wrapped up in that trailer in vehicle mode, he's no longer a car. Once he's wrapped up in the armor, he's no longer Hot Rod. He's become something entirely new. While the core robot is hidden amongst all of that, he's still Protector when it's all said and done. Classics Rodimus has been replaced by Protector.

Same with City Commander/D.I.A.Clone Commander and the Classics Optimus mold. And the upcoming MakeToys NOVA Prime. It's going to use parts of the Hasbro mold to create a new base figure that's fully integrated into the trailer, there by replacing the use of a Hasbro item. Hasbro's items were improved upon, but they've become non existent inside some of these 3rd party pieces.

It's like redoing a house, whether it's vinyl siding or whatever. Once you're done, it doesn't look the same and if you add on a piece that wasn't there in the beginning, you've permanently modified it. All that's left of the original house is it's frame. It has effectively become a new house with all the new materials replacing the old.

So, again, I say, 3rd party has really replaced Hasbro.

Going by that logic, I no-longer exist and have been replaced by Jason Vorheese the moment I put on the costume.

The original Hot Rod and Optimus mold toys still exist under the armour, and in fact none of the armour actually completely envelops the base toy, especially not Protector. Protector only covers the head and chest, the arms are new pieces that are stuck on, and the feet are extensions to the original toy's legs. It still exposes the original arms, shoulders, mid section, crotch, legs and back.

And if you redo the house just by giving it a new exterior, it still remains the same it was under that, it doesn't magically make it a brand new house made from new materials if all you did was cover the outside of it with something new and added a new extension.

Same goes for a car, it doesn't suddenly become a brand spanking new car that replaces the old one just because you give it a new coat of paint and a new set of wheels.

The upcoming Nova Prime replaces nothing at all, since there is no offering by Hasbro to be replaced. They likely did that toy the way they did since Nova is a small bot with armour, and tanker is the only experience they have in that field.

Again, the only 3rd Party offereings so far that are actually designed to replace existing Hasbro stuff are, Defender, Hercules, Giant, Uranus, Mugen Scope, iGear KO Seekers, Faith Leader, and maybe if you want to Crossfire Swindle and Blastoff.

Autobot032 wrote:Whether it's a KO maker or an actual "3rd partier" such as FansProject, they are neither Hasbro nor Takara, thus they are a 3rd party producer of transforming toys made to cash in on the real deal.

By that reasoning you may as well say Bandai is a 3rd party producer for their line of transforming toys called "Robotech".

Simply put ...
3rd Party - CREATE toys INSPIRED by Transformers mythology. With the intent to fill holes in collections that Hasbro / Tomy Takara have not, or will not do.
Knock-offs - DUPLICATE toys DIRECTLY from various Transformer lines. With the intent to "reissue" old molds that Hasbro / Tomy Takara have not, or will not do, or for the sole intent to rip-off unsuspecting collectors.

...well I blame Ryan for sweeping 3rd parties under the carpet, this is why we are destined to have this same debate time and time again every few months.

Banjo-Tron wrote:...well I blame Ryan for sweeping 3rd parties under the carpet, this is why we are destined to have this same debate time and time again every few months.

Yea, I hate that too, but to be fair, we've been having that debate for as long as I've been part of this community. So it's not really Ryan's fault due to deciding not to report 3rd Party products, since almost every time a KO is reported we have this discussion, and in a great deal of the ones I reported it was even more absurd. It just get boring to read the same sh*t over and over and over.

Hell, it was even worse whenever it was Classics Seekers, be they KO or official versions by Takara, I know one guy in particular who went batsh*t every time the Classics Seeker mold was used for something because he had the BotCon set with Thundercracker.

3rd party TF are not KO.

I had never owned any 3rd party TF figure until earlier this year, When I start getting the figures made by Impossible Toys: Quintesson Guard, Quintesson Prosecutor, Exo-Suit Set of Spike & Daniel,Quintesson Scientist,TRNS-03 - Alicon and G1-Scale Sparkplug & Spike Figure Set (worts invest ever dnt buy this one) Now they all have a good quality and they display very nice on the shelf.

After getting those I was sold on the 3rd party idea so the next one I got me was Green Giant and he is just great and was a good investment, now I'm working on Warlord I have the first 3 figures and the quality on these are also good, and yes I got me a Igear Cogz (gears) , Hench (Brwan) and PP05P Patrol Specialist (Ironhide) and have no complaints. I wish a 3rd party could make a real Scorponok so we can get a really big Decepticon maybe the size of Generations Metroplex idk maybe something like this Custom Scorponok Img that I found on the web?

Also that ko Scorponok is already selling on ebay for $300.
Here is the link for this custom Scorponok I found on the web http://technabob.com/blog/2011/04/26/ma ... ansformer/

I'd love a KO Black Zarak... just because playing with the original is so dangerous because of the gold plastic breaking. That alone is a HUGE reason to support any reissue (official) or KO (if Hasbro/Takara is hands-off.)

I wish Hasbro/Takara had been all over this instead.

gothsaurus wrote:I wish Hasbro/Takara had been all over this instead.

Agreed, but perhaps with this KO, they will be. We know they've already looked into doing some sort of updated Scorponok figure, so it's entirely plausible that they also have plans for a reissue to go alongside Fortmax.