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Fansproject: profit or non profit, who gives a damn? All I really care about is the products they have, their morals are about as relevant to me as Hasbro's.

I honestly don't think Fansproject could give a hoot anyway, they have made all the Shadow Commaders they ever will and sold them all to retail. I think the only reason they have highlighted the matter with the KOs is to avoid any comeback to them. (oh I see, your Shadow Commander is borked, I'm really sorry but we didn't make this one, please stop emailing us)

The funniest thing to come out of all of this is that it's this version that's been KO'd, this is the only one you can still get at retail anyway. I know alarm bells would ring if a large number of City Commanders popped up on eBay, but hell, in a free economic environment supply will always equal demand and you could sell a damn sight more with a knocked off City Commander; whether people knew it was dodgy or not.

Slayershoop wrote: Do you honestly think that as many Ultra Magnuses or Nemesis Primes would have sold if the Commander series hadn't come out?

Actually, yes...considering Magnus wasn't sold at retail when CC came out, Hasbro didn't sell any additional units there. And I doubt any more Nemesis Prime figs were produced because of it and I think all those would have sold out regarless of SC as well. I'm personally not against FP like the person you were replying to, but I do disagree with the point that Hasbro is making additional profits because of FP.

starfish wrote:A toy that looks like Ultra Magnus is not an "original design".

Does it really "look" like Ultra Magnus? I remember a big gripe from fans BEFORE City Commander, NOT Ultra Magnus, came out that it DIDN'T look like Ultra Magnus. And of all the HASBRO releases, I don't remember ANY of their Ultra Magnus's looking anything like City Commander. Case in point:

HASBRO's UM


Fans Projects CC

starfish wrote:FansProject sales are minimal, I doubt they make even the slightest bit of difference to those of megabucks Hasbro. The only people it helps are those who want to sell their classics Magnuses (Magni?) on ebay. Before FP, I could get a Magnus & Skywarp set on ebay for under £10. A couple of years ago they were shelfwarmers in my local Woolworths. Now an opened Magnus on ebay can go for silly money. How does that help Hasbro?

Well, you kinda kill your argument by mentioning the FACT that the Magnus/ Skywarp Two packs were shelf warmers. Why didn't you get one then? And its Fans Projects fault for making an upgrade to a figure that ANYONE could have gotten easily and didn't want as it "warmed shelves" for so long? And you ask HOW does it help HASBRO eh? Well if FP can make an upgrade to an "undesired" figure and make it a hard to find figure, what happens when they make an upgrade for figures that people are gonna want? Simple supply and demand economics kid.

starfish wrote:It doesn't matter if FP are a non-profit organisation. What they do is copyright theft. If I copy a CD and give a copy to a friend for the cost of a blank CD, that too is theft. It matters not one jot whether or not I'm making a proft, it's still illegal.

Refer to the images above and ask yourself how that is copyright theft. The upgrade isn't called Ultra Magnus its called City Commander to which there is no copyright. Thats like me saying YOU'RE in violation of copyright laws cause I have a starfish in my aquarium at home.

starfish wrote:Besides, I'm very dubious that these guys are non-profit. All we have is their own say-so... I'd love to have a look at their accounts. I mean, if they sell these things at cost then how come the non-chromed Shadow Commander cost way more than the chromed one?

Where is this "chromed Shadow Commander"? First I've ever heard of it and its my job to know whats going on the TF world before you. And so what if they take some cash for their time in designing and producing the figures. No Non For Profit could ever run a company to break even, that's fiscally impossible. The definition of Non For Profit means they don't sell their products at a premium to make additional funds above the cost of production of an item. So if I make figure X for $7.00USD and want to make a profit, I have to sell it for $29.99USD to cover shipping, materials and the people that make it happen to still make any form of profit.

Hey if you wanna bash or "hate" on Fans Project cause you're not willing to shell out the cash to buy an upgrade kit, then fine, you got every right. But don't say they deserve anything to happen to them like this because you feel they cost too much. Any hobby you get into has its inexpensive items and its expensive ones, just like Transformers.

Oof. I don't necessarily agree with what FP do but they didn't deserve to have this happen to them.

I have mix feelings, the pros about this is that some one coverd the holes and try to make it better, also ppl can use the kos for kidbashing and do what ever they want, that way we have the real thing that cannot be destroyed cuss its real and made by a fan for the fans. the cons about this is that some one made a copy. i hope who ever made this give fans project 50% of the money.

First Gen wrote:Does it really "look" like Ultra Magnus? I remember a big gripe from fans BEFORE City Commander, NOT Ultra Magnus, came out that it DIDN'T look like Ultra Magnus. And of all the HASBRO releases, I don't remember ANY of their Ultra Magnus's looking anything like City Commander.

Well, they look kinda similar to me. Okay, so they're not exactly identical, but that doesn't really matter. FP clearly based their designs on the Hasbro character, I don't think that's in question. Do they look enough alike to suggest plagiarism? Well, you obviously don't, I guess. I think they do. We'll just have to agree-to-disagree on this one.

First Gen wrote:

starfish wrote:FansProject sales are minimal, I doubt they make even the slightest bit of difference to those of megabucks Hasbro. The only people it helps are those who want to sell their classics Magnuses (Magni?) on ebay. Before FP, I could get a Magnus & Skywarp set on ebay for under £10. A couple of years ago they were shelfwarmers in my local Woolworths. Now an opened Magnus on ebay can go for silly money. How does that help Hasbro?

Well, you kinda kill your argument by mentioning the FACT that the Magnus/ Skywarp Two packs were shelf warmers. Why didn't you get one then? And its Fans Projects fault for making an upgrade to a figure that ANYONE could have gotten easily and didn't want as it "warmed shelves" for so long? And you ask HOW does it help HASBRO eh? Well if FP can make an upgrade to an "undesired" figure and make it a hard to find figure, what happens when they make an upgrade for figures that people are gonna want? Simple supply and demand economics kid.

Well, as both an owner of the Magnus set and an economics graduate, I don't see the flaw in my argument. My point was merely that the add-on was for a toy that has since ceased production. As such, any increase in demand will only benefit the secondary market. Simple economics, kid.

First Gen wrote:

starfish wrote:It doesn't matter if FP are a non-profit organisation. What they do is copyright theft. If I copy a CD and give a copy to a friend for the cost of a blank CD, that too is theft. It matters not one jot whether or not I'm making a proft, it's still illegal.

Refer to the images above and ask yourself how that is copyright theft. The upgrade isn't called Ultra Magnus its called City Commander to which there is no copyright. Thats like me saying YOU'RE in violation of copyright laws cause I have a starfish in my aquarium at home.

Overlooking for one moment your silly analogy, no-one owns the rights to the word 'starfish', therefore I'm free to use it as I wish. But 'City Commander' is a combination of words that can be copyrighted, in much the same way that Hasbro have done with the likes of 'Mixmaster' or 'Starscream'. Hasbro spend a lot of money in getting the legal situation right with regards to naming. That's why we get toys such as 'Autobot Jazz' instead of plain 'Jazz'. Have FP done their legal homework? After all, Hasbro were the first to use the phrase in conjuction with Ultra Magnus, who had the words "Function: City Commander" printed onto his box.

As I said before, it's down to personal opinion as to whether or not the two look similar. I think the point is, City Commander and Magnus look enough alike for those who bought the add-on set.

First Gen wrote:

starfish wrote:Besides, I'm very dubious that these guys are non-profit. All we have is their own say-so... I'd love to have a look at their accounts. I mean, if they sell these things at cost then how come the non-chromed Shadow Commander cost way more than the chromed one?

Where is this "chromed Shadow Commander"? First I've ever heard of it and its my job to know whats going on the TF world before you. And so what if they take some cash for their time in designing and producing the figures. No Non For Profit could ever run a company to break even, that's fiscally impossible. The definition of Non For Profit means they don't sell their products at a premium to make additional funds above the cost of production of an item. So if I make figure X for $7.00USD and want to make a profit, I have to sell it for $29.99USD to cover shipping, materials and the people that make it happen to still make any form of profit.

Apologies, I was referring to the chromed and non-chromed versions of the third set, the red-and-navy one, whatever it's called. Otherwise, my point still stands, which I think you seem to have missed. Many defenders of FP claim that it's okay for them to produce Magnus-lookalikes, so long as they are run on a non-profit basis. I was merely arguing against that assumption.

First Gen wrote:Hey if you wanna bash or "hate" on Fans Project cause you're not willing to shell out the cash to buy an upgrade kit, then fine, you got every right. But don't say they deserve anything to happen to them like this because you feel they cost too much. Any hobby you get into has its inexpensive items and its expensive ones, just like Transformers.

Now you are putting words into my mouth. At no point did I ever claim to hate FP, their products or their general pricing policy.

Indeed, if anyone seems to have a bias here, it is you. I understand that you enjoy the products that FP offer, and that you have a selfish desire to see them continue to produce their range unhindered. As a loyal FP customer, you have a personal interest in seeing them do well. Perhaps this tendency is also to blame for blinding you to the similarities between the real Ultra Magnus and the FP set. Whatever.

The point is that, from a neutral perspective, there is a definite irony that a company who produce borderline-litigious "resemblances" of Hasbro designs are now themselves the victims of design theft.

Don't you think that if Hasbro had a problem with FP that they would have said or done something about it seeing as how they rubbed shoulders with the guys at the last 'con where this set was released?
As for defending/condemning folks who buy or sell KO's? I won't condemn anyone for buying KO's of major corporations stuff. I'd do it myself most likely especially if it was a way to get someting G1-like for my kids without having to worry about it staying on a shelf to never be played with. I have no vested interest in FP but having owned a small business myself, I know what these guys go through trying to make it work and somebody doing KO's of a group that is just starting out and isn't even in it for themselves is just plain evil.
For those who took exception to my comment that "Hasbro has it coming", T F B!
Open your eyes folks. They havent "given" us jack! They do the minimum to keep us from being a pain in their ass and that's it. Grow up and see it for what it really is. We aren't where the money is and we never will be so don't waste time inflating your own egos. They CAN handle the hit from the KO guys better than someone like FP and that much you can't argue.

T-Macksimus, you are, as always, a legend.

I'm firmly of the opinion that ALL KOs are evil. I realise I may have been facetious and belligerent in previous posts, but believe me when I say that the makers of this shoddy KO ought to be jailed, if not flogged to death.

Also, I humbly apologise to First Gen for my patronising and condescending attitude. First Gen my man, you are a star.

As I said, though, ALL KO's really suck. Legally and morally, I don't care whether you are ripping off a small company or a megabucks corporation, it's all the same. So it's okay to rip off Hasbro? Try telling that to fans who unwittingly bought KO encore Metroplexes.

As with all of you, I'm a fan of Transformers first and foremost.

We may disagree on some stuff, but we're all the same underneath. Maybe we should stop sniping at each other and at Hasbro, and let rip on the idiots who are making the KOs.

starfish wrote:T-Macksimus, you are, as always, a legend.

I'm firmly of the opinion that ALL KOs are evil. I realise I may have been facetious and belligerent in previous posts, but believe me when I say that the makers of this shoddy KO ought to be jailed, if not flogged to death.

Also, I humbly apologise to First Gen for my patronising and condescending attitude. First Gen my man, you are a star.

As I said, though, ALL KO's really suck. Legally and morally, I don't care whether you are ripping off a small company or a megabucks corporation, it's all the same. So it's okay to rip off Hasbro? Try telling that to fans who unwittingly bought KO encore Metroplexes.

As with all of you, I'm a fan of Transformers first and foremost.

We may disagree on some stuff, but we're all the same underneath. Maybe we should stop sniping at each other and at Hasbro, and let rip on the idiots who are making the KOs.

Starfish, after your second post I understand your argument better an can see where you're coming from, but legally, there have been enough "changes" to City Commander from the G1 Version of Ultra Magnus to keep HASBRO from even remotely thinking of copyright issues. And ulitmately, anything that gets you back into Transformers or buying figures ultimately helps HASBRO. While they can't control the secondary market, all they care about is initial sales which will go up. You know this.

starfish wrote:T-Macksimus, you are, as always, a legend.

I'm firmly of the opinion that ALL KOs are evil. I realise I may have been facetious and belligerent in previous posts, but believe me when I say that the makers of this shoddy KO ought to be jailed, if not flogged to death.

Also, I humbly apologise to First Gen for my patronising and condescending attitude. First Gen my man, you are a star.

As I said, though, ALL KO's really suck. Legally and morally, I don't care whether you are ripping off a small company or a megabucks corporation, it's all the same. So it's okay to rip off Hasbro? Try telling that to fans who unwittingly bought KO encore Metroplexes.

As with all of you, I'm a fan of Transformers first and foremost.

We may disagree on some stuff, but we're all the same underneath. Maybe we should stop sniping at each other and at Hasbro, and let rip on the idiots who are making the KOs.

Starfish, after your second post I understand your argument better an can see where you're coming from, but legally, there have been enough "changes" to City Commander from the G1 Version of Ultra Magnus to keep HASBRO from even remotely thinking of copyright issues. And ulitmately, anything that gets you back into Transformers or buying figures ultimately helps HASBRO. While they can't control the secondary market, all they care about is initial sales which will go up. You know this.