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Civil War #7 SPOILER DISCUSSION

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Civil War #7 SPOILER DISCUSSION

Postby Counterpunch » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:15 pm

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The title said SPOILERS. You had your warning...

Today marks the end of one of the more popular and controversial epics in Marvel Comics.

Civil War #7 relates the story of the final conflict between registered heros (with Iron Man) and the unregistered heros (with Captain America)

So, in essence, Cap surrenders after nearly killing IronMan and having a crowd of civilians drag him off, with Cap realizing that he's been in the wrong.

Everyone knew the Registration forces would pull this off, somehow. That was never really in question. I had expected Cap to surrender in all honesty, but, I did think that there would be some sinister mechanisim pulling the strings somewhere.

What surprised me is that there was no revelation of Scarlet Witch, Red Skull, or some other ilk messing with things.

I'm sure that is yet to come, but overall I'd have to say I'm satisfied with the results.

(and I wonder what was up with Punisher and his whispy moment there in the middle...)
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Postby Roadbuster » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:28 pm

I don't know... part of me thinks that Ironman's side winning isn't the best idea. I know it's a comic book but to me, having the superheroes register sends the wrong message to our nations youth that reads these comic books. They do what they do because they want to. It's their own agenda, not the government's.

That legislation puts too many civilians at risk and gives the supervillains all the info they need to get at their enemies, doesn't matter what protection those civi's have, many are smart enough to bypass them. We can only hope Loki fixes things via his debt to Spider-man or the events of the next ASM makes the people of the Marvel universe realise their legislation puts too many civilians at risk.
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Postby Archibald Witwicky » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:47 pm

So, I didn't read any of Civil War. But I've vaguely kept up with whats happening.

A few weeks ago there was a 'leak' of an image of the Ironman armor done up in Red, White, and Blue and is apparently to be direction Steve Rogers goes in.

So, for those of you who've read Civil War to the end, was that true or false, or is it too soon to know?
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Postby Faceful of Kitchen » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:52 pm

i'll be picking this up as soon as i get my next paycheck.
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Postby Counterpunch » Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:12 pm

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Archibald Witwicky wrote:So, I didn't read any of Civil War. But I've vaguely kept up with whats happening.

A few weeks ago there was a 'leak' of an image of the Ironman armor done up in Red, White, and Blue and is apparently to be direction Steve Rogers goes in.

So, for those of you who've read Civil War to the end, was that true or false, or is it too soon to know?


It's too soon.

And that armor is a likely cover to 'Bullet Points', sort of a 'What if?'
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Postby Burn » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:43 pm

I found it to be a little anti-climatic in the end.

Stark has come out of it smelling like roses when through the whole CW storyline he seemed to be turning to the dark side.

And now he's the fracking director of S.H.I.E.L.D.

So I was a bit let down by CW #7. I'm hoping that the Captain America book makes up for what has been a great few months as it'll be interesting to see what happens to Cap now that he's locked up.
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Postby ionacus » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:38 am

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i loved the scene when hercules smashed clone thors' head in. it was nice. but no one died!
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Postby General Magnus » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:36 am

ionacus wrote:i loved the scene when hercules smashed clone thors' head in. it was nice. but no one died!


Hopefully the real Thor will return and fix things. He´probabbly going to WTFPWND Iron Man, if the Hulk does not pound stark first
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Postby God Sunstreaker » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:27 am

Marvel's Civil War Ends

And here's something I posted about my feelings on the end(bad grammar and all)

Superman: "I'm here to fight for truth, and justice, and the American way."
Lois Lane: "[Laughs] You're gonna end up fighting every elected official in this country!"

The entire story was crap. The writers decided to define superheroes as weapons, but they aren't; they're people. The government violates the heroes rights and creates new new class system at the same time. The very people that the heroes have been protecting turn on them; the citizens turned themselves into the villains. So the heroes have to fight for their own rights, they have to fight capital hill, and even the very people they used to protect. This ending is garbage from the point of few that Captain America just gave up his rights so a bunch of protesters could feel safer.

Benjamin Franklin: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"

These citizens decided to sacrifice the heroes freedoms and security for their own security...they sure as hell don't deserve anyone’s pity, the Captain’s tears, or anyone protecting them.

The Captain was wrong to turn himself in. He should have just walked away realized that the people didn’t want or deserve a Captain America. The America he wanted to protect didn’t exist anymore.
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Postby Counterpunch » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:44 pm

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I've never really made my opinions on the whole thing known, usually because the majority of people (readers) support the anti-registration side.

To begin, I have to condeede, that if the regestration act only targeted a group of people blacks, hispanics, mutants, etc. I would be against it. That would be discriminatory.

I think I was with Tony from the start. Now, I didn't agree with many of the methods the registration side employed, but I think there are two very important aspects that have to be understood before an argument can be made.

1) Use of Force is a power reserved for the Government of the people for use at the people's discretion. Think about it. Guns are the modern "Super-power". Who is permitted to weild a gun with leathal intent? The police and the military. To wield a weapon as a civilian you must be registered and permitted. In what way would super powers be any different? It's not an issue of fear, or restriction of liberty, but a matter of legally protecting everyone.

After all, are we a nation of laws or are we a nation of men?

Want to use your un-godly strength and laser eyes to 'defend' people? Great. Please forwarn everyone else who just thought it was the duty of the police to do so.

2) That legal issue is a real one. You can argue all you want about the moral implications of a law (See Roe v Wade if you have reservations). The fact remains, when the people object to a law, their recourse is to use the law. We had a civil war over this, a real one. Many unjust laws have been overturned. Not once in American history has an unjust law been overturned through violent civil-disrest. Even the most controversial, oppressing, and inherently evil laws of this nation (Racist segregation) were overturned through proper, if not long-going social and legal processes.

That's why, I'm with Iron Man.
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Postby Roadbuster » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:50 pm

^agrees with the quote

thats the message I see them sending. That it's okay to give up that which others fought for for their own safety. This country already has enough idiots wanting that. Joe Q screws up yet again yet Marvel keeps him around for some reason.

*hopes smart people bombard Marvel with hate mail.*

The only way I can see this being retconned it through Loki's favor to Spider-man, or the return of a mutant we're all very familiar with that dislikes anything where he is required to register. I think Tony may have just scheduled himself for an unplesant future visit from the Master of Magnetism.
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Postby Counterpunch » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:38 pm

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Roadbuster wrote:^agrees with the quote

thats the message I see them sending. That it's okay to give up that which others fought for for their own safety. This country already has enough idiots wanting that. Joe Q screws up yet again yet Marvel keeps him around for some reason.

*hopes smart people bombard Marvel with hate mail.*

The only way I can see this being retconned it through Loki's favor to Spider-man, or the return of a mutant we're all very familiar with that dislikes anything where he is required to register. I think Tony may have just scheduled himself for an unplesant future visit from the Master of Magnetism.


Everyone throws that Franklin quote around like it's a football.

How did Lincoln address the split of the Union? He marched every able bodied man into battle and crushed the rebellion.

We celebrate Lincoln as a hero, the savior of the Union, Federalism, and the Emancipator of black Americans. It's no damn different.
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Postby Supreme Convoy » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:34 pm

Archibald Witwicky wrote:A few weeks ago there was a 'leak' of an image of the Ironman armor done up in Red, White, and Blue and is apparently to be direction Steve Rogers goes in.

So, for those of you who've read Civil War to the end, was that true or false, or is it too soon to know?


:BOT: Yeah, it's too early to tell. But the image has been officially solicited/previewed with Iron Man's correct colors.

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As for Captain America's surrender, I can see what he did it. On another forum, someone said "Sometimes, it takes a bigger man to just STOP fighting than it does to WIN."

And I completely agree.

The delays killed the momentum of the series. But overall I enjoyed it. I can't wait for World War Hulk now! :CON:
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Postby NOBODY LOVES WHEELIE » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:09 am

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I was conflicted, because I really don't believe Iron Man's side was in the right in all honesty the whole story just makes little sense, see as how the public blames The New Warriors and by extension super heros for the original spark that set things in motion when clearly this was the cause of a super villian.

But I can understand training heros better...

But the logic becomes unstable from there with Super Villians there should be an outcry for them to be contained but there isn't, and worse yet put on the frigg'n payrole!
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Postby Ironhidensh » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:18 am

I was glad Ironman's side "won". To me, Cap's side represented total anarchy.


The finale could have stood to have a few more important deaths than Clore though. Hell, for a minute, I thought Reed Richards had just bought the farm.


And I'm sorry God Sunstreaker, but super-powered people are weapons, and a hell of a lot more dangerous than a redneck with 30 shotguns in his basement.
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Postby Tigertrack » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:48 pm

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I gave up reading Civil War after the Thor returns issue. I'm glad you all enjoyed it. It did have a lot going for it, I just don't read a lot of modern Marvel so it didn't mean as much to me as it would to others, who had seen what was happening to the characters to build up to this point.

It also reminded me of the "Mutant Registration Act" brought up and used way back in the X-Men one title days, except applied to all super heroes not just those who were designated mutants.

The fact that this might get some kids thinking about their rights and freedoms is a good thing in my eyes.
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Postby Burn » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:47 pm

I got to think more and more about the whole CW thing and what bugs me the most is the whole clone Thor thing.

He was created from a hair folicle Stark picked up at the first get together of the Avengers.

Yet what they cloned ended up being robotic.

So are we expected to believe that Stark possesses technology to create a robotic clone that mimicks whatever energies a Norse God puts out so that Mjolinor (sp) can be fooled into believing it's the real Thor yet this technology can't be used to create a full organic clone?

Or did I miss something?
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Postby Dynamax » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:48 pm

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Fake Hammer Burn. Probably the best damn fake Stark and SHIELD could come up with.

Spoiler Warning:

The real hammer was last seen in an FF issue opreceding Civil War, which heralded Doom's return and ended with a dude in a trenchcoat with the initials DB on his luggage buying a ticket to head to the city the hammer landed at.

DB is most likely Donald Blake...but leave it up in the air until the hammers back in the Odinson's hands before we name names.
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Postby zorian » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:02 pm

:-?

I will start with saying I have not actually read more than a couple of comics doing this story line, if there was something I missed that contradicts me please tell me. I've actually thought about this issue before the Civil War series was ever advertised. I know I'm a Geeeeeeek. :D
I am a big fan of the individuals rights and do not agree with many things that are done in real life or comics for security purposes. But while (I'm going to jump to DC for a second) WE all know that there is no way that Superman would go rogue (other than mind control or freaky Kryptonite) the population at large in that world can't know that. I almost agree with Lex Luther (some vrs. of him anyway) that there should be some control on the ONE man who probally could destroy the world if he really tried. See Smallville's vrs.
or even better the goverment group in Justice league unlimited the badguys who I almost agree with. Why do they need a super laser pointed down?

I think that instead of what was done in the Civil War story was what was hopeing the resolution would be. That the act would be changed to something more rational. Like say instead of requiring any Super human living in the U.S. to register ect, only make it a requirement if they want to "fight crime". Basically actually enforce the vigilante laws and give them a way around it without having to join the local police force. The Punisher series is the only comic that I know of that actually deals with the fact that what Spiderman does on a regular basis is illegal. Stopping a crime you see is one thing, regurally "going out on patrol" is another. Tony does have alot of good points ,they are just being done poorly. Why does EVERY super human have to register and become a federal agent just because they have powers. An example the mutate M.D. (with the force field) who was in the x-men comics for a while, she didn't want to be a super hero ,why should she?
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Postby Burn » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:06 pm

Dynamax wrote:Fake Hammer Burn. Probably the best damn fake Stark and SHIELD could come up with.

Spoiler Warning:

The real hammer was last seen in an FF issue opreceding Civil War, which heralded Doom's return and ended with a dude in a trenchcoat with the initials DB on his luggage buying a ticket to head to the city the hammer landed at.

DB is most likely Donald Blake...but leave it up in the air until the hammers back in the Odinson's hands before we name names.


ahhhh see I wondered what happened with that FF plot line. I just assumed that who picked up the hammer was the clone.

But still ... if they claim Thor was a clone from a hair folicle Stark's had since the founding of the Avengers, why was the clone robotic? In fact if it's robotic, why call it a clone at all? It's just a robotic facsimile, definitely not worth being called a clone and bringing the hair folicle into the storyline served no purpose at all really.
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Postby Dynamax » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:00 am

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Burn wrote:
Dynamax wrote:Fake Hammer Burn. Probably the best damn fake Stark and SHIELD could come up with.

Spoiler Warning:

The real hammer was last seen in an FF issue opreceding Civil War, which heralded Doom's return and ended with a dude in a trenchcoat with the initials DB on his luggage buying a ticket to head to the city the hammer landed at.

DB is most likely Donald Blake...but leave it up in the air until the hammers back in the Odinson's hands before we name names.


ahhhh see I wondered what happened with that FF plot line. I just assumed that who picked up the hammer was the clone.

But still ... if they claim Thor was a clone from a hair folicle Stark's had since the founding of the Avengers, why was the clone robotic? In fact if it's robotic, why call it a clone at all? It's just a robotic facsimile, definitely not worth being called a clone and bringing the hair folicle into the storyline served no purpose at all really.


1) Shock Value, he's "Dead" after all.
2) Thor allows them access to great power, him being one of the strongest superheros out there.
3) The real Thor'd be on Cap's side, no doubt about it. He'd sooner smite Tony's side with a few bolts of lightning than register, being a God and all. Robotic clone Thor, almost all the might and total obidience too.
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Postby Burn » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:38 am

Still doesn't explain the big fuss over the hair folicle.

Or was that simply a ruse by Stark to increase the shock value?
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Postby Counterpunch » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:12 am

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The cyborg portion was so that he could be easily controlled.

At least twice, Reed states a 'shut-down' code to CLor that turns him off.

If he had been all organic, I don't think they could have kept that tight of a leash on him.
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Postby Burn » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:40 pm

Well Frontline finally proved to me that Stark was manipulating things, but again he comes out looking like a great guy because of what he was willing to do to get his "initiative" setup.

I still can't see him being put in charge of S.H.I.E.L.D a good thing. Given how much he manipulated things during CW you have to wonder how far he'll go to get what HE BELIEVES is right done.

Sally did a great job of tearing both Stark and Cap down. If you don't normally read Frontline, at least pick this one up because it ties in nicely with CW7
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Postby Counterpunch » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:00 pm

Motto: "...and I used to be such a nice guy."
Weapon: Jawbreaker Cannon
Burn wrote:Well Frontline finally proved to me that Stark was manipulating things, but again he comes out looking like a great guy because of what he was willing to do to get his "initiative" setup.


Please recap, I didn't get to read it yet.
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