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News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:12 pm

Sally outright accuses Stark of being the one who changed the nanite programming in Osborn to cause him to attack the Atlantean ambassador because he was trying to provoke a war with Atlantis, a war that would unite the super hero community against a common threat and end the civil war.

He told her and Ulrich to get out and then lost the plot once they did.

by **Grendel** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:16 pm

yeah, after hearing how it ends, i kind of decided to save my money, kind of sounds like an anti-climatic way to end things. and now that stark won, that mean all superheroes in the marvel universe just gonna be cops with powers? meh

started out liking it, i thought the superhero registration storyline made more sense than the old X-men mutant resitration storyline. everyone in the marvel universe is fine with the human torch flying around burninating things, but freak and have protests when Archangel flies around? but then the end just peters out, and it's kind of crappy from the sounds of it

least spiderman isn't the iron spider anymore

News Credits: 125 · by **Counterpunch** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:29 pm

Grendel wrote:yeah, after hearing how it ends, i kind of decided to save my money, kind of sounds like an anti-climatic way to end things. and now that stark won, that mean all superheroes in the marvel universe just gonna be cops with powers? meh

started out liking it, i thought the superhero registration storyline made more sense than the old X-men mutant resitration storyline. everyone in the marvel universe is fine with the human torch flying around burninating things, but freak and have protests when Archangel flies around? but then the end just peters out, and it's kind of crappy from the sounds of it

least spiderman isn't the iron spider anymore

How would you have ended it?

I kind of thought that showing Tony's side as the victor had a certain amount of bite to it. It shows that you can't always expect the underdog to 'come through'.

News Credits: 3 · by **Rebirth Megatron** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:50 pm

But it just seems wrong.

All sides have blood on their hands in all of this but Tony crossed too many lines and made people he's called friends for years into criminals and monsters all for control. He cross many moral boundries (you know when Thor finally shows up he's going to kick Tony's ass for the clone, especially when he finds out Bill Foster's blood is somewhat on his hands too, as his image and power was corruoted by Tony and the others), and he wins with zero reprocussions. There could have been a middle ground found and yet the responsible parties still punished for what they have done...it just seems wrong for Stark to walk away clean. Although who can say he did, after all, a close personal friend did die in all of this. Spoiler:

Harold "Happy" Hogan, one of Stark's oldest friends, fataly injured by Spymaster. Stark had him taken off of life support for humanitary reasons.

We also know what happens when people know heroes identites, people or villains who are pissed off at a certain hero will target them. Fine and dandy for Punisher and Wolverine but now anyone who has loved ones has to either join this program and hope no one does that or retire like Firestar did. It almost saying "Slap on tights only if you have nothing to lose." We'll have more Gwen Stacy like deaths now.

News Credits: 25 · by **Ironhidensh** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:44 pm

Dynamax wrote:But it just seems wrong.

All sides have blood on their hands in all of this but Tony crossed too many lines and made people he's called friends for years into criminals and monsters all for control. He cross many moral boundries (you know when Thor finally shows up he's going to kick Tony's ass for the clone, especially when he finds out Bill Foster's blood is somewhat on his hands too, as his image and power was corruoted by Tony and the others), and he wins with zero reprocussions. There could have been a middle ground found and yet the responsible parties still punished for what they have done...it just seems wrong for Stark to walk away clean. Although who can say he did, after all, a close personal friend did die in all of this. Spoiler:

Harold "Happy" Hogan, one of Stark's oldest friends, fataly injured by Spymaster. Stark had him taken off of life support for humanitary reasons.

We also know what happens when people know heroes identites, people or villains who are pissed off at a certain hero will target them. Fine and dandy for Punisher and Wolverine but now anyone who has loved ones has to either join this program and hope no one does that or retire like Firestar did. It almost saying "Slap on tights only if you have nothing to lose." We'll have more Gwen Stacy like deaths now.

If Cap had done the right thing from the begining, none of this would have happened at all.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:20 pm

If Cap had supported the registration process someone else would have stood up in his place to oppose it.

The Civil War was going to occur regardless of what Cap did. It's pretty obvious now this was all a massive ploy by Stark to gain himself some more power and he had no trouble stepping on his friends to do it.

News Credits: 125 · by **Counterpunch** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:19 am

Dynamax wrote:But it just seems wrong.

All sides have blood on their hands in all of this but Tony crossed too many lines and made people he's called friends for years into criminals and monsters all for control.

That's rash, and no, Tony did not do that.

The government was going to pass the law anyway. The super heros had two options: stop being vigilantes, or register.

They weren't made into criminals. The chose to determine the law as "wrong", they chose, whether actively or through negligence to become criminals. They decided that the US was a Nation of Men and not a Nation of Laws.

If they really wanted to confront the law, they could have suspended their 'super-hero' activities and pursued a change in the law via legal means and through the Court of Public Opinion.

News Credits: 3 · by **Rebirth Megatron** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:59 pm

Tony helped set this up, why didn't he try to find a way to promote this law without cramming it down the heroes throats. Yes they had time to sort this out but as the spokesman for this did he try to really reach out and address the oppositions concerns?

Nope.

He made backdoor deals, secret weapons and plans to subdue them. Yes there were going to be radicals (and as Burn said if it wasn't Cap it'd be someone else, Cap only stepped up as he is a natural leader and almost everyone looks up to him, the obvious choice). Tony knew the score and he could have used his knowledge to better help this and perhaps bring people over to his side before the law came crashing down. He should have spent more time there than him and Reed making Thor clones and assembling Super Criminal enforcers.

And i am not saying Cap didn't screw up, he made some bad choices too but he was set up to take the fall by Tony. He's now the second most hated man in America (Penance/Speedball still holding the #1 spot), and because of that Tony got to wash his hands to make them look clean while dirting Cap's. Look back on the issues. Tony had his own ends in mind first, and the superhero communities interests second. Cap could have handled it better but the same could be said of Iron Man.

by **Big_yellow_glasses** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:06 pm

Dynamax wrote:Tony helped set this up, why didn't he try to find a way to promote this law without cramming it down the heroes throats. Yes they had time to sort this out but as the spokesman for this did he try to really reach out and address the oppositions concerns?

Nope.

He made backdoor deals, secret weapons and plans to subdue them. Yes there were going to be radicals (and as Burn said if it wasn't Cap it'd be someone else, Cap only stepped up as he is a natural leader and almost everyone looks up to him, the obvious choice). Tony knew the score and he could have used his knowledge to better help this and perhaps bring people over to his side before the law came crashing down. He should have spent more time there than him and Reed making Thor clones and assembling Super Criminal enforcers.

And i am not saying Cap didn't screw up, he made some bad choices too but he was set up to take the fall by Tony. He's now the second most hated man in America (Penance/Speedball still holding the #1 spot), and because of that Tony got to wash his hands to make them look clean while dirting Cap's. Look back on the issues. Tony had his own ends in mind first, and the superhero communities interests second. Cap could have handled it better but the same could be said of Iron Man.

Stark has always been about power, nothing else....

News Credits: 125 · by **Counterpunch** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:15 pm

Dynamax wrote:Tony helped set this up, why didn't he try to find a way to promote this law without cramming it down the heroes throats. Yes they had time to sort this out but as the spokesman for this did he try to really reach out and address the oppositions concerns?

He, or Wonder Man or Ms. Marvel made personal visits to numerous heros in an attempt to discuss the act with them.

News Credits: 3 · by **Rebirth Megatron** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:40 pm

While Tony sent a nanite controlled Norman Osborn to bomb some Atlanteans so he could get a bigger turnover.

Read that frontline #11 Burn mentioned. I did.

Cap's only mistake was not considering the other side and he's damning himself for it.

Tony betrayed them all and he is one of four people who know that fact. His actions after Sally and Ben urich left proved it was true...and he too is damning himself for it. One acted out of the goodness of his heart, misguided though it may be, one sold out his very ideals for control.

My problem with Tony is not the cause, the registration wasn't a bad idea, but it was all done so fast that no one knew what to do and all Hell broke loose. Tony helped that along and it played out how he wanted it too. His methods would be something I'd expect from Doom or Lex Luthor. The ends cannot justify the means. He betrayed everyone. The blood of all who died after the Stamford inicident is on his hands first, and the others just got dripped on.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:35 pm

Well no, the blood of the Stamford folk is on the hands of Nova.

Was it ever revealed who gave him the drugs to jack his powers up?

News Credits: 3 · by **Rebirth Megatron** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:39 pm

*Ahem*

Dynamax wrote:The blood of all who died after the Stamford inicident is on his hands first, and the others just got dripped on.

and to answer your question about Nitro's drug supplier (taken from wiki). His secret benefactor turned out to be Walter Declun, the CEO of Damage Control.

Some justice was done as Wolvie killed the bugger.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:10 pm

Dynamax wrote:*Ahem*

You know I never pay too much attention to your posts. ;;)

News Credits: 25 · by **Ironhidensh** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:34 pm

Dynamax wrote: The blood of all who died after the Stamford inicident is on his hands first, and the others just got dripped on.

No. The blood is on the hands of all the Superheros who felt they were above the law and above the will of the people.

News Credits: 3 · by **DISCHARGE** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:17 pm

Counterpunch wrote:I've never really made my opinions on the whole thing known, usually because the majority of people (readers) support the anti-registration side.

To begin, I have to condeede, that if the regestration act only targeted a group of people blacks, hispanics, mutants, etc. I would be against it. That would be discriminatory.

I think I was with Tony from the start. Now, I didn't agree with many of the methods the registration side employed, but I think there are two very important aspects that have to be understood before an argument can be made.

1) Use of Force is a power reserved for the Government of the people for use at the people's discretion. Think about it. Guns are the modern "Super-power". Who is permitted to weild a gun with leathal intent? The police and the military. To wield a weapon as a civilian you must be registered and permitted. In what way would super powers be any different? It's not an issue of fear, or restriction of liberty, but a matter of legally protecting everyone.

After all, are we a nation of laws or are we a nation of men?

Want to use your un-godly strength and laser eyes to 'defend' people? Great. Please forwarn everyone else who just thought it was the duty of the police to do so.

2) That legal issue is a real one. You can argue all you want about the moral implications of a law (See Roe v Wade if you have reservations). The fact remains, when the people object to a law, their recourse is to use the law. We had a civil war over this, a real one. Many unjust laws have been overturned. Not once in American history has an unjust law been overturned through violent civil-disrest. Even the most controversial, oppressing, and inherently evil laws of this nation (Racist segregation) were overturned through proper, if not long-going social and legal processes.

That's why, I'm with Iron Man.

Hey there buddy, I've not read any of this series. Multi issue crossover are too costly and very time consuming. That aside I gotta tell ya the problems with some of your statements.
1) The statement about wielding a weapon(say gun) and being registered and permitted. Don't know about the east coast but out here in Wisconsin I can drive over to the hunting grounds or private land and brandish that said weapon of mine and nobody knows I have the thing(s). No registration and no permit. Unfortunately we are not allowed to conceal and carry.
2)That speak of on laws never being overturned by civil unrest. I sure as hell would consider both the Revolutionary war and the Civil War pretty good examples. Those wars resulted in overturning quite a few laws.
That behind us. This registration sounds like what led to the Days of Future Past as the Sentinals used a compiled list of mutants to bring them in or exterminate them. If I had powers I would have fought them off too. Gee, how did Nazis round up all the Jews? I'm sure they had lists of names.
Sounds like Cap was fighting for freedom.

News Credits: 3 · by **Rebirth Megatron** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:20 pm

Ironhidensh wrote:
Dynamax wrote: The blood of all who died after the Stamford inicident is on his hands first, and the others just got dripped on.

No. The blood is on the hands of all the Superheros who felt they were above the law and above the will of the people.

They could have helped more. they passed that law so fast no one could sort this out without it resulting in all Hell breaking loose. The law was a good thing, but it was handled piss poorly.

Plus as stated, the methods were dirty and used to get certain people in certain ways so they could either have power or be controlled by those who had power.

If Tony did something to make them hold off the bill until they could sort this out and get more allies on the side of registration or found some other way better than *BAM* law passed, join us or go to jail, then this wouldn't have happened or it would be a series of smaller events.

by **Goribus** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:32 pm

DISCHARGE wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:I've never really made my opinions on the whole thing known, usually because the majority of people (readers) support the anti-registration side.

To begin, I have to condeede, that if the regestration act only targeted a group of people blacks, hispanics, mutants, etc. I would be against it. That would be discriminatory.

I think I was with Tony from the start. Now, I didn't agree with many of the methods the registration side employed, but I think there are two very important aspects that have to be understood before an argument can be made.

1) Use of Force is a power reserved for the Government of the people for use at the people's discretion. Think about it. Guns are the modern "Super-power". Who is permitted to weild a gun with leathal intent? The police and the military. To wield a weapon as a civilian you must be registered and permitted. In what way would super powers be any different? It's not an issue of fear, or restriction of liberty, but a matter of legally protecting everyone.

After all, are we a nation of laws or are we a nation of men?

Want to use your un-godly strength and laser eyes to 'defend' people? Great. Please forwarn everyone else who just thought it was the duty of the police to do so.

2) That legal issue is a real one. You can argue all you want about the moral implications of a law (See Roe v Wade if you have reservations). The fact remains, when the people object to a law, their recourse is to use the law. We had a civil war over this, a real one. Many unjust laws have been overturned. Not once in American history has an unjust law been overturned through violent civil-disrest. Even the most controversial, oppressing, and inherently evil laws of this nation (Racist segregation) were overturned through proper, if not long-going social and legal processes.

That's why, I'm with Iron Man.

Hey there buddy, I've not read any of this series. Multi issue crossover are too costly and very time consuming. That aside I gotta tell ya the problems with some of your statements.
1) The statement about wielding a weapon(say gun) and being registered and permitted. Don't know about the east coast but out here in Wisconsin I can drive over to the hunting grounds or private land and brandish that said weapon of mine and nobody knows I have the thing(s). No registration and no permit. Unfortunately we are not allowed to conceal and carry.
2)That speak of on laws never being overturned by civil unrest. I sure as hell would consider both the Revolutionary war and the Civil War pretty good examples. Those wars resulted in overturning quite a few laws.
That behind us. This registration sounds like what led to the Days of Future Past as the Sentinals used a compiled list of mutants to bring them in or exterminate them. If I had powers I would have fought them off too. Gee, how did Nazis round up all the Jews? I'm sure they had lists of names.
Sounds like Cap was fighting for freedom.

And if you go back and read the issues of the Days of Future Past storyline that are set in the future they walk past a graveyard filled with tombstones. Only half of them are names of mutants. The others are of non mutant superheroes.

As far as Tony goes, he's an egomaniac,alchoholic and self centered. In Armor Wars he broke the law and attacked hero and villain alike to get back his stolen technology. During Armor Wars Cap also took a moral stand and protected the Vault which had recieved blueprints for an advanced armor from Ghost or Spymaster I forget who. So after pretending to come to his senses Ironman shot Cap in the back with Repulsor blasts as he checked on a guard. Cap returned the favor by throwing Tony's custom shield into his unarmored gut. (See back then Steve was The Captain as he was sick of the corrupt nature of the goverenment and changed his costume to the one that's now associated with US Agent.

The moral of the story is that Tony's only a step or 2 away from being a super villain himself. He claims to want to save the world from itself. He's an arrogent self centered man with access to the most advanced technology on the face of the Earth, with flying battle stations, an army of Super powered and normal soldiers at his disposal and is now offically sanctioned by the President to do pretty much whatever the hell he feels like. I'd imagine that sooner or later Tony will either cross over and become a threat himself or crack under the pressure.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:19 pm

Goribus wrote:The moral of the story is that Tony's only a step or 2 away from being a super villain himself. He claims to want to save the world from itself. He's an arrogent self centered man with access to the most advanced technology on the face of the Earth, with flying battle stations, an army of Super powered and normal soldiers at his disposal and is now offically sanctioned by the President to do pretty much whatever the hell he feels like. I'd imagine that sooner or later Tony will either cross over and become a threat himself or crack under the pressure.

Pretty much how I see the guy.

Amazing how his past transgressions are over looked because of the "good" he did in bringing about the registration act.

And now they've put him in charge of SHIELD, if this all wasn't a power ploy I don't know what is.

It'll be good to see Fury take him down.

News Credits: 125 · by **Counterpunch** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:08 am

DISCHARGE wrote: Hey there buddy, I've not read any of this series. Multi issue crossover are too costly and very time consuming. That aside I gotta tell ya the problems with some of your statements.
1) The statement about wielding a weapon(say gun) and being registered and permitted. Don't know about the east coast but out here in Wisconsin I can drive over to the hunting grounds or private land and brandish that said weapon of mine and nobody knows I have the thing(s). No registration and no permit. Unfortunately we are not allowed to conceal and carry.

You actually just supported my point there. You can go to the hunting grounds, you can go to private property, but bring that gun into the Mall and see what happens. Your state is actually more strict than Florida was. Florida lets you have a concealment permit.

The registration act didn't say you couldn't have powers, or would be drafted if you did. But if you chose to use those powers in a vigilante manner, you had to license yourself.

2)That speak of on laws never being overturned by civil unrest. I sure as hell would consider both the Revolutionary war and the Civil War pretty good examples. Those wars resulted in overturning quite a few laws.

Well, the South started the Civil War. They lost. The Federal rules were upheld. Again, this supports my argument.

Where the Revolutionary war is concerned, the circumstances were far to complicated to related to the Marvel Civil War story. The distance between the colonies and Britain on exaserbated the growing cultural differences. Then there was the representation issue, etc. Really not applicable to the discussion.

That behind us. This registration sounds like what led to the Days of Future Past as the Sentinals used a compiled list of mutants to bring them in or exterminate them. If I had powers I would have fought them off too. Gee, how did Nazis round up all the Jews? I'm sure they had lists of names.

Counterpunch wrote:To begin, I have to condede, that if the regestration act only targeted a group of people blacks, hispanics, mutants, etc. I would be against it. That would be discriminatory.

Anyway, the Days of Future Past story occured because it was not people at the helm. The Registration Act is the super hero community policing themselves and being responsible to the people. It's not a bunch of mindless robots invented by a bigoted mad-man.

Sounds like Cap was fighting for freedom

Ironically, not even Cap could justify staying that in the end.

News Credits: 3 · by **DISCHARGE** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:53 am

Counterpunch wrote: To wield a weapon as a civilian you must be registered and permitted.

I'm sorry I guess this is the interesting part. We my not have a conceal and carry like the other 47 or so states, which I am for, but we also don't require registration. I am a civ, I have guns, I'm not a felon and if found with them I answer to no one.
The revolutionary war is relevant for stated:
Not once in American history has an unjust law been overturned through violent civil-disrest.

Taking place in American History I would view it in relevance regardless of how long ago it was. And I would say there was plenty of violent civil upheaval and disappointment in the current system of laws placed on colonial peoples. Through this unrest laws were scrapped and new ones took their place that were more to the liking of the citizens.
Obviously a large enough superpowered heroes felt this new registration would take them in the wrong direction and felt their sovereignty would be taken away and was worth fighting for.

News Credits: 4 · by **General Magnus** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:55 pm

I wonder how optimus would react. I can see him sidding with Cap and Grimock with Adolf Stark

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:19 pm

So we've picked Stark apart. How about Reed Richards?

I find it hard to believe that someone so smart, could be so damn blind.

The problems caused by the registration act, his wife walking out on him, and he didn't even stop to think he may have been wrong. Not to mention how immoral the clone Thor thing was.

Speaking of clone Thor again, have a read of Black Panther 25. Storm -vs- Clone Thor at the start of the final battle before Hercules steps in to finish the job.

I've never been a real big fan of Storm (never understood what was so great about her, little bit over-rated) but marrying T'Challa and dedicating herself to Wakanda has done a lot for her character.

News Credits: 3554 · by **Seibertron** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:22 am

NOBODY LOVES WHEELIE wrote:I was conflicted, because I really don't believe Iron Man's side was in the right in all honesty the whole story just makes little sense, see as how the public blames The New Warriors and by extension super heros for the original spark that set things in motion when clearly this was the cause of a super villian.

But I can understand training heros better...

But the logic becomes unstable from there with Super Villians there should be an outcry for them to be contained but there isn't, and worse yet put on the frigg'n payrole!

I haven't read my copy of Civil War #7 yet. Still trying to get through the last month's worth of TF comics that I just picked up. While I was at the store on Wednesday night, it was recommended that we pick up Civil War: Front Lines #11 because it had a pivotal piece of information/revelation that basically gave the primary reasoning behind the Civil War saga. I haven't read this issue yet either but I skimmed through it ... it looks like Tony Stark is having a difficult time with everything that's happened. Rumor has it that CWFL#11 has the potential of being a really hot comic later down the road. Retailers didn't buy a lot of that issue and yet it's a pivotal piece of the Civil War puzzle.

News Credits: 3554 · by **Seibertron** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:26 am

Burn wrote:So we've picked Stark apart. How about Reed Richards?

I find it hard to believe that someone so smart, could be so damn blind.

The problems caused by the registration act, his wife walking out on him, and he didn't even stop to think he may have been wrong. Not to mention how immoral the clone Thor thing was.

The two characters that I had the hardest time understanding their motives were Peter Parker and Reed Richards. Both characters seemed to be doing something really out of character. I was shocked that Parker threw away all of those years of protecting the people he loved the most like Mary Jane and Aunt May. His identity reveal seemed out-of-character and irresponsible to me, regardless of whether it was right or wrong. Reed, on the other hand, seemed to just throw his wife aside. It just seemed like a plot device to create further storylines down the road.

Burn wrote:Speaking of clone Thor again, have a read of Black Panther 25. Storm -vs- Clone Thor at the start of the final battle before Hercules steps in to finish the job.

I've never been a real big fan of Storm (never understood what was so great about her, little bit over-rated) but marrying T'Challa and dedicating herself to Wakanda has done a lot for her character.

When did the real Thor die or disappear? That plot point seemed really cliche to me as well. I would be pissed if I was a Thor fan.