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joesaysso wrote:

Rated X wrote:This is actually more like a 3rd party "fix" than an upgrade. TFC went all out with a fairly cartoon accurate Neo Devastator. But some rocket scientist at TFC decided to give him a more toy accurate head. This new head gives the fans what we really wanted to begin with. Not some cheap clip on visor. Hopefully more will follow such as:

KO purple Mixmaster barrel

Toy accurate guns for the individual bots (cartoon accurate guns would all look the same)

Toy accurate Devastator gun with the bananna clip (last on my list, but would be cool)

You know, your statement actually is a real good display of the current sad state of affairs that is the 3rd party market and the collector's thought process.

When pics of Herc were released, I was disappointed with the garbage head he came with along with some of the color flaws, such as his not purple mixing barrel and the general over-use of black. With the hefty price tag, I decided that the flaws, while admittedly minor, were a deal breaker. Because for 600 bucks, the figure should be perfect. That price tag represents a small investment.

But you, by your own words, and I'm sure many, many others, happily gave away $600 of your money for a figure that, while awesome, you weren't 100% satisfied with. Simply because you are a "collector" and this figure was a "must-have." Thusly, by spending the money, you gave a pass to the company for their outlandish pricing and poor QC process. And by spending even more money with additional 3rd party "fixes", you give a pass for the first company for not getting it quite right the first time and opening the door for more 3rd party profit with the upgrades.

Now, I'm not telling anybody how to spend their money. If you've got the cash to spend then so be it. I've made my choices on 3rd party products and I have no regrets. My point is that the 3rd party market is so broken right now and the collectors are making it worse. Because they are feeding into the overgrown monster.

Collectors justify the existence of 3rd party by saying that it gives collectors what they want, that they know they won't get from Has/Tak. Fine. And I say that the 3rd parties are screwing you and collectors are happily bending over for it.

I mean c'mon man! You just spent 600 bucks on a figure that needed "fixes" and your happily getting back in line to dump even more money into that same figure. Wake up! You got screwed over. Some of the collectors are just as out of control as the 3rd party to makers.

Why so much hate?

First I feel that Herc is perfect the way it is. However I feel a new head is not a fix it is just an addition. The head gives it two very different looks. Herc is the centerpiece of my collection and is amazing in person. Also $100 a figure seems to be the standard now. Look at the new RC coming out or the new Megatron. For $600 you get 6 amazing figures. These are somthing Hasbro will never give collectors. They had thier opprotunity with Bruticus and the Fansproject version is still far superior. Hasbro just doesn't care, and about the QC issues??? Honestly not that big of a deal because TFC was awsome to give replacement parts.

I don't think it's fair to say Hasbro doesn't care. But they operate under different rules than the 3rd party guys.

I do appreciate J's point, though. I mean, $600 is a LOT of scratch to pony up for a figure you're not happy with and we're being charged $100s of dollars for figures we're not 100% on. I mean ... there's a LOT of $100 3rd party figures out there.

Of course, I think there's only one 3rd party figure I've ever actually regretted buying in that price range. (Valkyrie; overpaid at a con ... humbug!)

That said though, there are few things in life that are TOTALLY perfect. Even the best product has it's flaws.

Rated X wrote:I really got to bring up a couple of points to the haters...

It doesnt get any more G1 cartoon than this. The current Hercules head sucks. Now you get a chance to own a head that is cartoon accurate. Whats the problem ??? If it was too big, it wouldnt fit inside Dr. Crank, now would it ??? And if it is too small, whats wrong with getting a little head ???

I have never bought a Crazydevy product before, but this will be my first. After spending $600, whats another $25 ??? Nobody who owns Hercules should be complaining about the price of this head.

As Mkall stated... I also hated the G1 head. I'm fine with Hercules and don't want to spend more money on something that doesn't need fixing either, and it's overpriced anyway.

bfett88 wrote:
Why so much hate?

First I feel that Herc is perfect the way it is. However I feel a new head is not a fix it is just an addition. The head gives it two very different looks. Herc is the centerpiece of my collection and is amazing in person. Also $100 a figure seems to be the standard now. Look at the new RC coming out or the new Megatron. For $600 you get 6 amazing figures. These are somthing Hasbro will never give collectors. They had thier opprotunity with Bruticus and the Fansproject version is still far superior. Hasbro just doesn't care, and about the QC issues??? Honestly not that big of a deal because TFC was awsome to give replacement parts.

Its not hate. I didn't spend my money so I have nothing to be upset about. I'll call it awareness.

I'm aware of the fact that for $600, it should have come with the right head. Hell, really it should have come with two heads so you can choose which you want to display. I'm aware of the fact that I would be upset that I had to pay additional money to make my $600 investment the figure that I want it to be.

I'm aware that the $100 standard that you mention (and I agree it does seem to be the standard these days) is too high. I personally don't care for it and I don't partake. But that only became the standard because collector's happily shelled out their cash ever single time. But while there is probably 1000 people on this board who will agree that $100 for a voyager sized figure is too high, 95% of those people will still shell out the money.

And the QC issues that TFC was awesome enough to give replacement parts for....Again, it didn't partake in these figures so I am only speaking from hear-say and not experience, but as I understand it, they didn't give anything, you had to spend the extra $100 for the next figure in the line to get the parts that you needed. That doesn't sound like an awesome way of handling it to me. Where I would be furious, you called them awesome.

I'm not trying to be a hater nor am I trying to kill the buzz of the lastest centerpiece of anybody's collection. Quite frankly, if you spent the $600 on the figure, I wish that you'd be simply happy and overjoyed when the figure finally showed up. But the mere existence of a 3rd party upgrade/fix to another 3rd party figure and the reception that its getting suggests otherwise.

As a collector myself, I would think that this sequence of events would upset a lot of other collectors. But what I am seeing, especially when it comes to the 3rd party market is a "bend over and happily take it" attitude from the collector masses.

My personal feelings are that collectors are not getting their money's worth from the 3rd party market. Sure, there is some pretty awesome figures that are out, but at inflated prices. And those inflated prices drop the value of the overall package. I look at my shelf right now and see that for the price of my TRU MP Grimlock, you could not get any of your unofficial constructicons. I look at my RTS Cyclonus and wonder if voyager sized 3rd party Megatron is going to be $80 worth better than him. I highly doubt it.

Yet, there is already a line to pre-order the thing. $100 for the figure, $15-$20 for shipping, and what another $7-$10 for the reprolabels? C'mon, thats ridiculous. But it will sell, in abundance. And the next time the company wants to do another "favorite" transformer they can charge a little bit more for it. And the collectors will keep paying it. How much for a G1 accurate Shockwave? $120? Where's the limit?

Don't think it happens that way? Guess again, it already has. Warbot defender was $80 when it was released. Even back then I thought that price was stupid given how ugly that figure is. Look at Crazy Devy. They set the 3rd party world on fire with the first release of their Devy upgrades. And with each subsequent release, you got a little bit less product for a little bit more money.

As a collector, I'm upset abot these things but clearly I am the minority. Thats fine I guess, I'd rather have my money. But I promise, the 3rd party market will get worse before it gets better if the collectors continue to suck up all of the crap that it offers.

If third parties want to make commercially available upgrades and accessories for Hercules, they should start with something like thedreaded1's shoulder extensions, forearms and drill attachment (which allow Exgraver and Neckbreaker to be attached with their vehicle modes mostly intact, more closely mimicking the G1 toy's silhouette):

As a matter of fact, they should contact him and offer to mass produce his design so it can be had without having to resort to Shapeways.

As far as heads go, I really like TFC's head, but I can see why someone might want a more cartoonesque head, especially if it's what comes to mind when they think of the character. (As for myself, when I think of Dev I think of the toy, not the animation model, so I think Hercules did "come with the right head".)

joesaysso wrote:My personal feelings are that collectors are not getting their money's worth from the 3rd party market. Sure, there is some pretty awesome figures that are out, but at inflated prices. And those inflated prices drop the value of the overall package.

It's all a matter of economy of scale. Lower production runs mean a higher price per unit, and at this point I'd rather pay more for a smaller number of products that are geared towards my taste and that are actually easy to buy than have to accept inferior products with spotty distribution compromised by the economic needs of American big-box retailers. Hasbro's managed to do an amazing job of sneaking excellent updated versions of obscure characters into the vast sea of Bumblebees and Bayformers that clog WalMarts, but they can't do so in all cases; this limit has been made glaringly obvious by the neon coloured disaster that is FOC Bruticus. (And let's face it, the escalating costs of petroleum and labor mean the inexpensive retail action figure is an endangered species in any case.)

I just got done paying $50-$80 a pop for Prime First Edition Voyagers; that's not that far off from the cost of a Herc component.

I personally feel that the third party companies would no exist if Hasbro had any idea what they were doing. They hardly ever give collectors what they really want. However their Star Wars division knows how to give their fans what they want. I have no issue paying $100 for a quality third party figure if it is something I want. Hercules is an amazing figure in person. I have no regrets spending the $600 on it because it is so amazing. In the end I would rather spend money on something that makes me happy. You can't take the money with you when you die . I would like an amazing Devestator that I will have until the day I die instead of an extra $600.

bfett88 wrote:I personally feel that the third party companies would no exist if Hasbro had any idea what they were doing. They hardly ever give collectors what they really want. However their Star Wars division knows how to give their fans what they want.

I think it's more a matter of the high-end Transformers market being small change to a behemoth like Hasbro than anything else. I figure what will eventually happen is that they'll subcontract to a niche maker, like they did with Sideshow Collectobles for Star Wars and G.I. Joe (through which every figure presently runs $100-$180), though the situation with Takara Tomy makes that a bit more complicated.

bfett88 wrote:I have no issue paying $100 for a quality third party figure if it is something I want. Hercules is an amazing figure in person. I have no regrets spending the $600 on it because it is so amazing. In the end I would rather spend money on something that makes me happy. You can't take the money with you when you die . I would like an amazing Devestator that I will have until the day I die instead of an extra $600.

Fully agreed. We're kind of digressing from Crazydevy's kind-of-crappy head upgrade, though.

joesaysso wrote:Its not hate. I didn't spend my money so I have nothing to be upset about. I'll call it awareness.

I'm aware of the fact that for $600, it should have come with the right head. Hell, really it should have come with two heads so you can choose which you want to display. I'm aware of the fact that I would be upset that I had to pay additional money to make my $600 investment the figure that I want it to be.

Personal taste, there have always been extras and upgrades to figures, some seem really really pointless and stupid. But the thing is, had they gone with the toon accurate head, someone would have made a toy accurate head to please those who preferred that.
Also part of the thing behind Herc is the fact that all parts are integrated into the figures themselves, even the removable kibble can be stored in the different modes of the alt-mode, had they made two different heads, there would have been a loose piece flying about.

And the QC issues that TFC was awesome enough to give replacement parts for....Again, it didn't partake in these figures so I am only speaking from hear-say and not experience, but as I understand it, they didn't give anything, you had to spend the extra $100 for the next figure in the line to get the parts that you needed. That doesn't sound like an awesome way of handling it to me. Where I would be furious, you called them awesome.

how is that a bad thing? I mean if you start collecting the pieces to have Hercules, you'll buy all the pieces and not just a few. So you would have spent that extra 100 for the next figure anyway. You didn't have to spend more on top of what you would have spent in the first place.
It's just more economic and convenient that way.

I'm not trying to be a hater nor am I trying to kill the buzz of the lastest centerpiece of anybody's collection. Quite frankly, if you spent the $600 on the figure, I wish that you'd be simply happy and overjoyed when the figure finally showed up. But the mere existence of a 3rd party upgrade/fix to another 3rd party figure and the reception that its getting suggests otherwise.

Again, someone would have made an upgrade for this anyway. Just look at all the unnecessary and mostly pointless "upgrades" for City Commander.
And I would hardly call this ugly thing a fix.

As a collector myself, I would think that this sequence of events would upset a lot of other collectors. But what I am seeing, especially when it comes to the 3rd party market is a "bend over and happily take it" attitude from the collector masses.

No not really, you have the choice of buying this, Make Toys Giant, or the original G1 with either the Crazy Devy, the X-Transbots, or the Junkion blacksmith upgrade, or those upgrades and the recent Encore reissue, or heck none at all.

You also don't have to buy this stupid head either, it's not done by TFC, it wasn't their idea to make it.

My personal feelings are that collectors are not getting their money's worth from the 3rd party market. Sure, there is some pretty awesome figures that are out, but at inflated prices. And those inflated prices drop the value of the overall package. I look at my shelf right now and see that for the price of my TRU MP Grimlock, you could not get any of your unofficial constructicons. I look at my RTS Cyclonus and wonder if voyager sized 3rd party Megatron is going to be $80 worth better than him. I highly doubt it.

Yet, there is already a line to pre-order the thing. $100 for the figure, $15-$20 for shipping, and what another $7-$10 for the reprolabels? C'mon, thats ridiculous. But it will sell, in abundance. And the next time the company wants to do another "favorite" transformer they can charge a little bit more for it. And the collectors will keep paying it. How much for a G1 accurate Shockwave? $120? Where's the limit?

Again, you don't have to buy it or the ReproLabels, the thing looks good enough the way it does, it doesn't need ugly paper stickers covering up it's paint and sculpt.

Don't think it happens that way? Guess again, it already has. Warbot defender was $80 when it was released. Even back then I thought that price was stupid given how ugly that figure is. Look at Crazy Devy. They set the 3rd party world on fire with the first release of their Devy upgrades. And with each subsequent release, you got a little bit less product for a little bit more money.

That's the main complaint about Crazy Devy, but also their genius. They sold the first part for an insanely low price, 15 dollars for a cartoon accurate head with LED, batteries, and a joint. That price stuck in the back of poeples heads making them believe that everything CD does will, not only be good but also totally worth it. But it's not.
Both X-Transbots and JB offer the same kinda stuff for far less, and in the case of JB it's going to be of higher quality.

Yes Warbot originally cost 80, now that he's super popular and sought after the retailers jack up the price for the re-release, just the same way they jack up the price of any other official product that gets re-released. Remember MP Ultra Magnus? That was recently re-issued, but no on-line retailer had it for it's original price, they put it in just under current market price.
FP also keep getting better with their prices, the recent Insecticons where about the same size as Warbot, but had more features than him, but they where still cheaper.

As a collector, I'm upset abot these things but clearly I am the minority. Thats fine I guess, I'd rather have my money. But I promise, the 3rd party market will get worse before it gets better if the collectors continue to suck up all of the crap that it offers.

Then don't buy the crap it offers, only buy what appeals to you, or the stuff that is actually worth the money that it's charged.

joesaysso wrote:And the QC issues that TFC was awesome enough to give replacement parts for....Again, it didn't partake in these figures so I am only speaking from hear-say and not experience, but as I understand it, they didn't give anything, you had to spend the extra $100 for the next figure in the line to get the parts that you needed. That doesn't sound like an awesome way of handling it to me. Where I would be furious, you called them awesome.

I agree...it's pretty crappy of them to include the replacement parts along with something 99% were going to buy anyway. Now excuse me while I go play with my MP-09 v2 that costs even more than the QC riddled v1.

PS: for the 1% that wasn't already getting the follow-up figs, there was a website you could request replacement parts through.

joesaysso wrote:And the QC issues that TFC was awesome enough to give replacement parts for....Again, it didn't partake in these figures so I am only speaking from hear-say and not experience, but as I understand it, they didn't give anything, you had to spend the extra $100 for the next figure in the line to get the parts that you needed. That doesn't sound like an awesome way of handling it to me. Where I would be furious, you called them awesome.

Actually if I remember correctly, they did just give you the replacement part if you emailed them and wasn't going to buy the next figure.