TransformersEmporium wrote:OMG.. lol
No, I didn't feel like starting a new conversation with someone at 11 at night when I had no interest in talking with them. Least of all you. I didnt trash talk anyone, except for maybe the australian who had gone off his meds and was attacking people.
I don't need to defend myself from anyone or for anything, much less a wanna be know it all like yourself.
And the real fans, yes, since obviously your not. You just troll through here looking for people to harrass, unlike those of us who are looking to have a positive experience. But that wont happen with people like you hanging around.
And BOTCON is pushing ethics about the same as you are a real Transformer fan and not some post trolling know it all who enjoys attacking people.
They are doing it out of greed and selfish pride and nothing else.
Now unless you have something intelligent to say to me on a topic that hasnt been beaten to death, I suggest you disappear cause Ill just report you for harrasssment, Im not in the mood. Your not worth any agravation..
Actually considering some of your "gems", I've been more than civil with you. Also let's look at this so called "trail of harassment". You defended illegal activity on your part as an online seller of KOs and 3rd party products (and one which makes no effort to point out that the vintage G1 toys they sell are complete knock-offs too I might add) in the thread about the Botcon bans and when you were called out on it, you resorted to bigoted and nasty low blows.
Then after a time you linked to this thread, which I naturally checked out given the controversial statement by Dairycon that was being reported on.
When I went to post, you'd just made a ludicrous post claiming that Hasbro and FP were somehow being unfair for not allowing dealers to sell products which stole their IPs (banning them and confiscating their illegal wares if they tried it on at the con after signing an agreement stating they wouldn't), which incidentally is a move that is essentially one great big up yours to both companies to their faces. The minor miracle here is that FP and Hasbro didn't put their foot down with Botcon sooner. Naturally I commented on how utterly fallacious your response to this was.
Yet your response to that elephant in the room has been to resort to character attacks and name calling - something you have consistently done when you do not have a valid response to your posts. Feel free to report me if you feel that's harassment. One look at this thread and the thread where you linked me to here from, will soon make it clear that the person who is resorting to character attacks and trolling behaviour here is yourself.
Anyway back on topic. Dairycon are playing a risky game, as it depends on just how much of a laughing mood Hasbro are in. Perhaps what Dairycon is doing is satire to them, but if Hasbro have had enough; attacking both Hasbro and Botcon in such a move could completely alienate Hasbro. Satire is always about sending a message, and when Hasbro are sending a message that their IPs are not something they will let anyone out there make money off of; Dairycon essentially giving Hasbro the finger could create a powerful enemy for them if this Botcon ban is just the start of things. The fact that confiscations at Botcon might lead to confiscations being handed over to police, suggests that it's highly likely that it is.
Also when people try and differentiate 3rd Party stuff from KOs by claiming that there's a scale difference; they're right that there is a scale difference, but what they fail to recognise is that by the time you're at 3rd party unlicensed products, you're already at the point in terms of scale where you've crossed over the line into IP theft - something which could have been avoided if the items were either licensed or authorised.
Slayershoop wrote:1. KO's and 3rd party products are two entirely different things, you may find your opinion otherwise, but for the most part, it's true. The goal of most 3rd parties is to fill the gap for collectors that Hasbro and Takara Tomy will not. That has always been the goal and will always be the goal. KO companies's goal is to cheaply and illegally copy an existing design from a copyright holder. This is THE fundamental difference. So let's cover specifics
I don't think anyone is arguing that there are clearly different intentions here between 3rd parties and KOs. The problem is that even if you factor that in, you're still smack bang in the middle of unauthorised and unlicensed products territory.
Slayershoop wrote:2. 3rd party figures are not IP holder designs: This is clearly the case, now there are some exceptions to this statement, mostly pertaining to iGear, namely, Faith Leader and the MP Seekers. However, let's look at this on a whole: City Commander, an armor add-on for Ultra Magnus, making him look vaguely like his G1 incarnation, now, not speaking for Hasbro here, but it was a pretty good bet that Hasbro would never release something like that, why? It's not really cost effective for them. TFC Hercules, A six figure combining team, made out of voyager sized robots. Recently, the closest we have seen to this is five deluxes or a bunch of duplo like limbs. Once again, targeting the core market for them, children. These designs are created and manufactured by independent companies, Hasbro can lay no claim whatsoever to the designs, they are not named after Hasbro products, nor do they contain any Hasbro product within.
The problem comes though in terms of the concept and likeness issues. Noone would suggest that City Commander is a straight KO for example, but the design clearly makes an unauthorised use of the Ultra Magnus robot mode likeness. Considering what it's designed to interact with, you can't argue coincidence on it either. It's the fact that it's unlicensed and unauthorised which is the problem here- not that someone is trying to fill a gap in the market
Slayershoop wrote:3. Hasbro is for kids, 3rd party is for collectors: Hasbro has stated multiple times that their market is for children, that the vast majority of their profit is from children. 3rd party companies are aimed at adult collectors, supposedly a small portion of the overall market for Transformers. We have also seen recently, that despite the current economic status, they do continually post a profit each fiscal quarter. So if we are to interpret this information, 3rd party has not made Hasbro fall into the red, now, there is no way of knowing if it has cut into profits, if any at all, due to how many variables there are. However, if we, as collectors, are such a small margin, it should not be affecting Hasbro's bottom line.
This point fails on 2 counts. To begin with, if Hasbro were unconcerned with collectors, then we wouldn't have had Alternators or reissues, and we wouldn't have had Masterpiece figures either. The fact that they are making those offerings at retail though means that clearly they do consider adult collectors as their market as well as children. Secondly there is the fallacy of the "victimless crime", like the ethics go right out the window because of how large Hasbro is. The reality is that every 3rd part unlicensed product sold is depriving Hasbro of revenue they are entitled to as they own the IPs in these cases.
Slayershoop wrote:4. KO's are wrong, but 3rd parties are a grey area: Let's face it, KO's are wrong, and I give Hasbro every right to go after them, in fact, I encourage it. 3rd parties...this is a bit hard to say. Original designs only vaguely reminiscent of something else are always a grey area. It doesn't help that they are not using copyrighted names, art, or anything really. Yes, they are based off of something, but the same can be argued for just about anything else: Transformers drew from Diaclone, Micromachines, etc. (owned by Hasbro I know), but, they also were pretty clearly influenced by Gundam, Macross and the like. In my opinion, Hasbro pursuing 3rd parties, and winning the lawsuits, may set a very dangerous precedent where everyone can sue anyone for being based off of or looking like something else. For instance, Guilty Crowne, Code Geass, Eureka Seven, Tiger and Bunny to an Extent, Gundam, Full Metal Panic!, Marcross and many others all have designs that can be considered similar to each other, and an uneducated judge or jury may not be able to tell the difference. All hold individual IP, if Hasbro won, all would have grounds, if they decided to capitalize on it.
Are they that grey though? Granted they're nowhere near as bad as KOs which are completely irredeemable, but you're still talking about IP theft being the basis for all their designs. In a way it coming to blows would actually be a positive thing, as it might force things to actually come to a head in a positive way. Hasbro's statement about refusing to work with 3rd party company sounds more like the first salvo in a war and setting up a position of strength to potentially negotiate from. Where you could wind up from there is with reasonbly strict licensing deals going on where things have to pass Hasbro QC before they can be offered. Once you reach a point of licensing deals being struck of course, the whole thing changes and 3rd party stuff becomes completely legit. That's your sticking point.
Slayershoop wrote:It's not as if Hasbro isn't impressed either, it has been shown repeatedly at TFCon (I don't know about Botcon personally) that both sides have mutual respect. Hasbro reps were extremely impressed with 3rd parties, and for the most part, Hasbro is held in an almost reverence. So there seems, for the most part, to be no bad blood.
So I guess it boils down to: KO, go after it by all means. 3rd parties, tread carefully on both sides.
The problem is the slippery slope of all this. People have said "if it just stopped with add-on kits" but that was never going to be the case, because there is always a slippery slope. Taking a step back, it's not hard to see how this went from add-ons, to 3rd party figures, to high grade forgeries, and semi-forgeries in terms of the likes of the 3rd party Seaspray and Huffer et al. The situation has gotten to a point where I think Hasbro feels the need to kill it all off so that they can then look at managing it. Once the dust settles, I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of Maketoys had licensing deals and everything they produced became legit.