Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Oncoming Storm wrote:Disney (Walt, himself, for starters)
supported the Nazi party, before and during WWII; Walt Hated Jewish persons; and ripped off the Grimm Fairy-tales as well as ruined MANY stories and myths of folklore... (i.e. : 'Hercules', 'Aladdin', Hans Christian-Anderson's 'The Little Mermaid', 'Tarzan', 'The Muppets',now 'Star Wars', and 'Indiana Jones', ETC...) And produced all of those lame-ass musicals. THE Disney Co.
refused to pay any of its animators any royalties on the characters and designs and the stories that they created on their own...(i.e. : Hanna-Barbera, who left to create their own company when Walt refused to let them retain the rights to Donald Duck, Goofy, And other characters that THEY CREATED...)

The bit about Walt being a supporter of the Nazi party is blown way out of proportion. You can read more about this here at straightdope.com.

As for the part about royalties, we'll be on opposite sides of the fence on that one. This doesn't make Walt Disney evil ... it all just comes down to what was agreed upon at the time of hiring. I do not think that creative people should be entitled to royalties for anything they created while working for a company unless that was agreed upon when they were hired. They were hired for their creative talents and ability to come up with ideas that the company could sell. They shouldn't be entitled to royalties any more than a factory worker should be entitled to royalties for a car, toy or electronics device that they helped build in a factory.

Some companies these days don't even allow you to do paid freelance work and even go so far as to have you sign documents that say that anything you do outside of your job that is along the lines of what you do at your job is considered work done for the company. I was presented with some legal paperwork along those lines at my job about four years ago after working there for almost a year. I refused to sign the paperwork because I was concerned about the implications it would have on Seibertron.com. I was fired a week later and don't regret it for a moment.

Bottom line ... employees that are concerned about royalties should make sure they are entitled to them at the time of employment. If you don't secure your rights to royalties yet create something amazingly popular during your time at the company, then you are simply S.O.L. in my opinion.

Yes, Walt created Mickey Mouse, but that's it!!
He took advantage of the talents of many young creators and Animators...
And stole ideas and never paid for them!! THAT's just the beginning of How EVIL and tainted that company is...

He didn't take advantage of the many young creators and animators that WORKED for him as his employees. They were doing their job as his employees so that they could collect a paycheck to pay their bills, support their families and put food on the table ... just like all of us. That's not evil at all. That's just business. Plain and simple.

Seibertron wrote:He didn't take advantage of the many young creators and animators that WORKED for him as his employees. They were doing their job as his employees so that they could collect a paycheck to pay their bills, support their families and put food on the table ... just like all of us. That's not evil at all. That's just business. Plain and simple.

That is taking advantage of them, though. If they want to work with the skills they actually had they had to do what he told them to. What are they gonna do, risk being unable to feed their families?

Handels-Messerschmitt wrote:

Seibertron wrote:He didn't take advantage of the many young creators and animators that WORKED for him as his employees. They were doing their job as his employees so that they could collect a paycheck to pay their bills, support their families and put food on the table ... just like all of us. That's not evil at all. That's just business. Plain and simple.

That is taking advantage of them, though. If they want to work with the skills they actually had they had to do what he told them to. What are they gonna do, risk being unable to feed their families?

As I mentioned above, I risked my job and lost my job because of Seibertron.com. I feel they should've risked it as well. It's no different than you or I. Are you part of some royalties program at your work? I'd be surprised if any of you are. Why does that make Walt Disney evil if people were doing the jobs they were hired for?

Because the circumstances in which people are hired are not equal. You agree to it in a legal sense but if you don't agree to employment anywhere you will be without income and unable to pay for a home, clothes, healthcare and food. You are under far more pressure to be hired by anyone than anyone is under to hire you, specifically. Companies know this very well and make the most of it.

Seibertron wrote:

Oncoming Storm wrote:Disney (Walt, himself, for starters)
supported the Nazi party, before and during WWII; Walt Hated Jewish persons; and ripped off the Grimm Fairy-tales as well as ruined MANY stories and myths of folklore... (i.e. : 'Hercules', 'Aladdin', Hans Christian-Anderson's 'The Little Mermaid', 'Tarzan', 'The Muppets',now 'Star Wars', and 'Indiana Jones', ETC...) And produced all of those lame-ass musicals. THE Disney Co.
refused to pay any of its animators any royalties on the characters and designs and the stories that they created on their own...(i.e. : Hanna-Barbera, who left to create their own company when Walt refused to let them retain the rights to Donald Duck, Goofy, And other characters that THEY CREATED...)

The bit about Walt being a supporter of the Nazi party is blown way out of proportion. You can read more about this here at straightdope.com.

It's a moot point anyway on supporting the Nazis anyway - America hated Jews and agreed with the Nazis rounding them up. Might as well point the finger at your grandparents and great-grandparents. If Japan hadn't bombed Pearl Harbor, the US would not have gotten involved. It wasn't until the combination of being attacked and the reveal of concentration camps that America had morals about the situation.

Anyway, look at what could go wrong based on what Disney owns and has done. Look at what could go right based upon those same ideas. Base predictions about Disney's morals off of description of past events and current holdings, not emotions.

What could go wrong? IDW's contract could run out and the license be taken back to Marvel. Not likely, but it would be cost-effective, contractually.

What could go right? Disney loves retail product and getting more product out there. This could mean more, potentially better, toys for us.

Pro : Transformers in Toy Story and more Disney Label (Legit Herbie the Love bug Transformer?)

Con : What happens to 3rd party figure makers? Igear Love Bee??

The Potentate wrote:Id hate to see Optimus Primes Trailer with a picture of a rat on it. Hopefully, this doesnt happen.

Mouse, not rat. And too late.

After the deft handling that Disney has made of the Marvel properties, I would trust them with any franchise. Frankly the Transformers brand has flourished in spite of Hasbro rather than because of it for most its lifetime. Maybe now we'll get better shows and more continuity rather than rebooting every 3 years.

cor2879 wrote:Maybe now we'll get better shows and more continuity rather than rebooting every 3 years.

The G1 continuity lasted for 16 years, and (to a small extent) is still growing.

The Unicron Trilogy lasted 4 years, as did the Movie Trilogy.

The Aligned continuity debuted in 2010 and it's going to last for the next decade.


Yep. Reboot every 3 years.

disney, when will you just admit that you're running out of idea's. I think if disney does purchase Hasbro, as long as they do not mess with the toys or series. we won't have a problem.

Oncoming Storm wrote:Disney (Walt, himself, for starters)
supported the Nazi party, before and during WWII; Walt Hated Jewish persons; and ripped off the Grimm Fairy-tales as well as ruined MANY stories and myths of folklore... (i.e. : 'Hercules', 'Aladdin', Hans Christian-Anderson's 'The Little Mermaid', 'Tarzan', 'The Muppets',now 'Star Wars', and 'Indiana Jones', ETC...) And produced all of those lame-ass musicals. THE Disney Co.
refused to pay any of its animators any royalties on the characters and designs and the stories that they created on their own...(i.e. : Hanna-Barbera, who left to create their own company when Walt refused to let them retain the rights to Donald Duck, Goofy, And other characters that THEY CREATED...)
Yes, Walt created Mickey Mouse, but that's it!!
He took advantage of the talents of many young creators and Animators...
And stole ideas and never paid for them!! THAT's just the beginning of How EVIL and tainted that company is...

And yet, anything done by Disney that was in regard to the Nazi Party was anti-Nazi propaganda. "Education For Death," "Der Fueher's Face," and so on. Plus, this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JStrcfHr8AY

In "Education For Death," he detailed the upbringing of a German child in Nazi Germany. How they were raised and grown to be nothing but good Nazi soldiers who will die. And this video points out that hatred is based on the fact your emotional side has greater control of your rational side. And to know the difference between truth and even stuff you said.

So yes, he was anti-Communist during the Red Scare. Yes, he took credit for his animator's works. Yes, did some stuff that was not fair. But he was not an antisemitic, and only his family supported the Nazi party before they had shown their true colors. Because if you know your history, the Nazi party claimed to represent the working people of Germany. And it was not until Hitler took over, did nobody (outside his circle) know what his plans were for Jews, Islam, homosexuals, and foreigners.

In all cases, there is no truth that Walt Disney knew that the Nazi party was going down that path before it did. And once he did, he made it clear that he did not approve. He also did not approve the way Anaheim started to look after he had built Disneyland, which is why he had built Walt Disney World. Shall we contend that doing that is a sign of hating Disney?

How about the fact that despite his beginnings, he was voted "Man of the Year" by the B'nai B'rith in Beverly Hills, a Jewish organization? Should we condone them as well? Should we also ignore all the good both he and his company have done?

How about we also boycott both Paramount and DC Comics for this cartoon? While we are at it, we have to boycott Warner Brothers because they made racist cartoons. We also must boycott Square Enix on account they made a Huck Finn game that has a racist depiction of Jim. Shueisha, Viz Media, Weekly Jump, Shonen Jump, and Toei for One Piece.

Point being is that if you look at the years when they say he was pro-Nazi, you will find that it is inconsistent with when the Nazi party was anti-Jewish. That if you look at the point, starting with Snow White and beyond, you would see that he had changed. After his death, his company evolved into many things. The most notable was the Michael Eisner era.

So yes, Walt Disney did take credit for other people's work. But so did so many other writers and creators after him. Yes, he was anti-Communist but he was not antisemitic according to those within the Jewish community. And after he became a major force prior to his death, he did a lot of good which even Roy Disney himself noted.

And besides... If you started a business, would you like it if we posted everything you said here as a means of preventing you from obtaining business? Think about that. Because I, for one, know what it is like to be called a Nazi just because my last name is German. I also know what it is like to have this kind of hatred be placed on me. And I know that people go by emotion-backed assumptions instead of intelligence-backed fact checking when they choose to hate first... Learn last.

PrymeStriker wrote:

cor2879 wrote:Maybe now we'll get better shows and more continuity rather than rebooting every 3 years.

The G1 continuity lasted for 16 years, and (to a small extent) is still growing.

How do you get 16 years? Are you counting from the first episode in 1984 to the beginning of RID? There is no possibly way that counts considering that for most of that time the Transformers franchise was Dead (certainly here in the States it was). No, there is no way that G1 continuity lasted 16 years. We got, at best, 4 years - maybe 6 if you count Beast Wars.

PrymeStriker wrote:The Unicron Trilogy lasted 4 years, as did the Movie Trilogy.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, those things weren't very good. And really, 4 years is not much longer than 3. At best this is a technicality, at worst it is an example of how poorly the Transformers IP has been mismanaged for most of its lifetime.

PrymeStriker wrote:Yep. Reboot every 3 years.

Try to be a little less literal. Three years, four years - my point is that Transformers gets rebooted, a lot and I would much rather see a longer term focus on developing a richer, singular continuity. I suppose I'm also still a bit jaded that Beast Wars was canned just as it was getting really good, as did Transformers Animated. Everything that came in between those two shows (TV wise at least) was terrible, in my opinion.

cor2879 wrote:How do you get 16 years? Are you counting from the first episode in 1984 to the beginning of RID? There is no possibly way that counts considering that for most of that time the Transformers franchise was Dead (certainly here in the States it was). No, there is no way that G1 continuity lasted 16 years. We got, at best, 4 years - maybe 6 if you count Beast Wars.

Yes, I was counting 1984-2000. However, the original "The Transformers" franchise lasted 7 years (1984-1991). Then we got G2 from 93-95 and the Beast Era from 96-2000. 13 years of the G1 continuity family.

The last new episode of "The Transformers" aired in 1987. I remember it well because I was excited about the new season that would feature Fortress Maximus and the Headmasters (and Optimus Prime) only to discover that it was a mere three episodes.

I realize that in Japan there were more episodes and more shows that lasted until 1991, but for me as a kid with no means of even knowing about what was going on in Japan, Transformers ended in 1987. Hasbro's involvement with any sort of Transformers TV show certainly ended then. G2 may count as a product line and as a comic, but on TV it was just rehashed or (poorly) remastered episodes of G1, certainly that doesn't count as TV continuity.

Seibertron wrote:

KUMA-NIN Maximus wrote:3) Hasbro is doing fine simply because Disney gives them a lot of their business. Meaning that the only difference between being a Disney-based subsidiary and now is the fact the former gives them permanent rights to the Disney-owned toylines they already make.

Except for the fact that Mattel makes the majority of Disney retail products, including the very large Disney Princess segment which I'd love to see Hasbro get (hey maybe that could be the catalyst that brings Jem back which Hasbro is really missing out on with the whole Barbie Popstar thing that my 3.5 year old daughter loves right now).

Here's some of Mattel's Disney product catalog ...

http://shop.mattel.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=3719991

I forgot about Mattel. It had been so long since I heard of the name that I thought it died in Vietnam.

But yeah... Either a revival of the original Jem or even a reboot version would be nice. Or would that be...

Truly outrageous?

.....

Frankly, I don't care about Disney's past, it's all long gone, and those running the business today weren't even born back then (or maybe even their parents, for that matter).

What I DO care for is where tehy're heading with this brand - IF they actually go on a shopping spree. Change nothing, and we won't have to fear nothing. Change too much, though...

Sargent wrote:Change nothing, and we won't have to fear nothing. Change too much, though...

The entire concept of Transformers is about change ...

cor2879 wrote:The last new episode of "The Transformers" aired in 1987. I remember it well because I was excited about the new season that would feature Fortress Maximus and the Headmasters (and Optimus Prime) only to discover that it was a mere three episodes.

I realize that in Japan there were more episodes and more shows that lasted until 1991, but for me as a kid with no means of even knowing about what was going on in Japan, Transformers ended in 1987. Hasbro's involvement with any sort of Transformers TV show certainly ended then. G2 may count as a product line and as a comic, but on TV it was just rehashed or (poorly) remastered episodes of G1, certainly that doesn't count as TV continuity.

Agreed. I remember pretty much capping off on the series in 1986/1987, missing out on season 4. And while I did watch nearly every non-Beast Wars series dubbed in English, I remember watching a single episode from their Generation 2 series. It was the second worst thing I had seen, with the first being The Rebirth.

So when it comes to the original Generation 1 animated series, that ended here in 1987. However, if you go by the toyline, that lasted until 1990. And if you go by the comic series... Do we have a calendar for that?

cor2879 wrote:The last new episode of "The Transformers" aired in 1987. I remember it well because I was excited about the new season that would feature Fortress Maximus and the Headmasters (and Optimus Prime) only to discover that it was a mere three episodes.

I realize that in Japan there were more episodes and more shows that lasted until 1991, but for me as a kid with no means of even knowing about what was going on in Japan, Transformers ended in 1987. Hasbro's involvement with any sort of Transformers TV show certainly ended then. G2 may count as a product line and as a comic, but on TV it was just rehashed or (poorly) remastered episodes of G1, certainly that doesn't count as TV continuity.

You're obviously confusing "continuity" with a "TV show."

Continuities are not confined to the TV shows that sell the toys. The continuity involves all the stream: Toylines, Comics, Cartoons, etc.

The TV show of G1 lasted from 84-87. The toyline was from 84-90. The comics were from 84-91.

Then G2 came along.

Beast Wars lasted from 1996-1999, and Beast Machines finished it in 2000.

And even then, the G1 continuity family didn't stop. War Within, Machine Wars, Alternators, Heroes of Cybertron, Timelines, the IDW and Dreamwave comics, and more.

The "Primax" family is the largest continuity family out there. You really shouldn't complain about continuities being so short, when you only watch the TV shows and consider that the essence of the continuity.

Perhaps so but in my original post I was specifically referring to shows. It's difficult to lump the comics, shows, and toys into any one continuity since they are often in continuities of their own - the G1 show and comic being Prime (see what I did there? ) examples of this.

cor2879 wrote:Perhaps so but in my original post I was specifically referring to shows.

Your original post came across as referencing continuities period. You said "better shows and more continuity," not "better shows with more continuity."

In retrospect, you could've simply put down "longer TV shows" or "longer TV continuities." It probably would've saved a whole lot of confusion.

Nyancatron wrote:Muppets.
Marvel.
Star Wars.
Hasbro?

I have eternally hated Disney franchises and do still today.
Once they messed with Squaresoft, THAT sucked too.
These are the same freaks that STOLE Kimba the White Lion and got caught by the court shredding Winnie the Pooh ownership documents!
And they got away with that and everything else they do... because they're rich as hell.

Goodbye, Transformers... goodbye My Little Pony...

I'm guessing Lego is next now.

To say nothing of all the GLORIOUS 3rd-party content.
Perhaps even this very site as well.

: /

I don't know about the legal stuff with Kimba and Winnie the Pooh. It could be true.

But I fail to see how Disney ruined Muppets. If anything, they're the one last bastion keeping them alive. They did just release a new Muppets movie, which was great. If it wasn't for Disney I think the Muppets would've faded into obscurity by now, Sesame Street notwithstanding.

Marvel has already been discussed to death, not ruined yet is it?

Star Wars...considering Lucas himself ruined it and Disney had no influence over that, I don't think so. It can only get better from here.

Squaresoft? Do you know anything about it? They merged with Enix, then most of the original Final Fantasy creators were either fired or left. Hasn't been the same since, but it had nothing to do with Disney. Just because they have a crossover series doesn't mean Disney controls everything they do.

Seriously, some of the Disney haters need to try thinking with some logic.

As long as disney doesn't ruin Boba Fett, and Soundwave...I'm happy.

AdamFett wrote:As long as disney doesn't ruin Boba Fett, and Soundwave...I'm happy.

Boba Fett was already ruined

First when he appeared as a child

Second when Lucas changed his flipping voice!

As a previous poster mentioned, Star Wars has nowhere to go but up!

Mkall wrote:I can foresee better quality toys put out because of this. It would probably also mark the end of 3rd parties.

There is something good that could come out of this-- the 3rd Parties could start focusing on creating their own original transforming toy lines (which some of them already have started) that are independent of the Transformers brand.

If they can establish themselves as a legitimate form of competition, then Hasbro would be pressed to engineer more and better toys.

Or Disney would be pressed to acquire those companies. So that Fansproject Not-Springer or that TFC Not-Devastator on your shelf? CANON!