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datguy86 wrote:Smokescreen wants to be an hero, right? Him dying makes lots of sense and doesn't cost the show the status quo too heavily.

Aside from, well, robbing the show of the best thing that's ever happened to the Autobots in it. Smokescreen's addition enhanced the status quo. Take him out and we're back to the same core protagonist team we've always had since the beginning.

Sabrblade wrote:

datguy86 wrote:Smokescreen wants to be an hero, right? Him dying makes lots of sense and doesn't cost the show the status quo too heavily.

Aside from, well, robbing the show of the best thing that's ever happened to the Autobots in it. Smokescreen's addition enhanced the status quo. Take him out and we're back to the same core protagonist team we've always had since the beginning.

There's a point we disagree on - Smokescreen is the last thing the Autobots needed. There's nothing he has done another Autobot couldn't have been used for. In my opinion, he's the sole distraction from a rather decent series of endgame fetchquests. It just feels like the writers shoehorned him in - either to take a command lead (ugh) when someone else dies or die a hero (meh).

Although if Bumblebee bites it, I could certainly deal with that. He hasn't added much to the show since he and Starscream fought over the T-Cog.

datguy86 wrote: Given the viewer doesn't see Shock die; only buried in rubble as has happened to any number of characters of the course of the series.

The last we saw of him he was walking through the space bridge, shot in the eye, and then it combusted on him. He was buried in rubble, but that wasn't the cliffhanger.

datguy86 wrote:Also, the Dinobots and Shockwave have some history, yes?

Yes.

datguy86 wrote: It just feels like the writers shoehorned him in - either to take a command lead (ugh) when someone else dies or die a hero (meh).

Or to add a new character to the fold of Autobots. Are you convinced that they show writers put new characters in for them to die in the long-run? It's a change, and I'm pretty sure you and everyone would've been bored with 65 episodes of the same 5 Autobots + Wheeljack's occasional visit.

PrymeStriker wrote:

datguy86 wrote: Given the viewer doesn't see Shock die; only buried in rubble as has happened to any number of characters of the course of the series.

The last we saw of him he was walking through the space bridge, shot in the eye, and then it combusted on him. He was buried in rubble, but that wasn't the cliffhanger.

Crap. Forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder.

PrymeStriker wrote:

datguy86 wrote:Also, the Dinobots and Shockwave have some history, yes?

Yes.

datguy86 wrote: It just feels like the writers shoehorned him in - either to take a command lead (ugh) when someone else dies or die a hero (meh).

Or to add a new character to the fold of Autobots. Are you convinced that they show writers put new characters in for them to die in the long-run? It's a change, and I'm pretty sure you and everyone would've been bored with 65 episodes of the same 5 Autobots + Wheeljack's occasional visit.

You'd be surprised how often this does happen. Hell, on the Decepticon side Makeshift and Skyquake have already succumbed to it by virtue of being "villain of the week". It's easier to accept the loss of a new character than to kill off an existing character. It's one of the lessons learned from the original animated Transformers movie.

datguy86 wrote:You'd be surprised how often this does happen. Hell, on the Decepticon side Makeshift and Skyquake have already succumbed to it by virtue of being "villain of the week". It's easier to accept the loss of a new character than to kill off an existing character. It's one of the lessons learned from the original animated Transformers movie.

I'm aware it happens quite a bit, but it hasn't happened to this show yet.

The only character killed off after being established into a team is Breakdown. Skyquake, Makeshift, Cliffjumper, Hardshell, and others only stuck around for an episode or two before their deaths. At least Breakdown lasted 23 episodes before his death.

Smokescreen's been hanging around for 5 episodes so far, and nothing's gone wrong. As I said before, it would be a predictable outcome for Smokescreen to sacrifice himself to save Cybertron, him being the fourth Omega Key. However, we can't expect every new character introduced to be killed off within 10 episodes or so. Dreadwing and Knock Out are just proof of the matter.

P.S: The only reason I don't count Airachnid is because she's not technically "dead," but rather in a stasis pod.

Welp, all this Beast Hunters info and "inside Job" have pretty much made Smokescreen an Autobot. I personally detest the character and his ability to - much like some self-insertion fan character - be absofugginlutely perfect in all regards while making the rest of Team Prime all but unnecessary. At least Starscream's special brand of self-serving made the episode interesting. That and vehicon tossing.

Anyway, I have a hat to butter up and maybe add some spices to it.

datguy86 wrote:Welp, all this Beast Hunters info and "inside Job" have pretty much made Smokescreen an Autobot. I personally detest the character and his ability to - much like some self-insertion fan character - be absofugginlutely perfect in all regards while making the rest of Team Prime all but unnecessary.

Except for, you know, his failure to get the third Omega Key due to Starscream getting the drop on him, and his abduction later in the same episode. He's also cocky and reckless, and that's bound to eventually bite him in the back later. It always does with this type of character.

Sabrblade wrote:

datguy86 wrote:Welp, all this Beast Hunters info and "inside Job" have pretty much made Smokescreen an Autobot. I personally detest the character and his ability to - much like some self-insertion fan character - be absofugginlutely perfect in all regards while making the rest of Team Prime all but unnecessary.

Except for, you know, his failure to get the third Omega Key due to Starscream getting the drop on him, and his abduction later in the same episode. He's also cocky and reckless, and that's bound to eventually bite him in the back later. It always does with this type of character.

Both situations which placed Smokescreen in the apt position of escaping a Decepticon Warship with three artifacts, while simultaneously angering Megatron. On a thematic level, I know this escape is supposed to be juxtaposed against Starscream's infiltration (right down to Megs and Op screaming in rage); Starscream at least has a history of complicating situations since defecting from the 'Cons. Smokescreen just gets dropped on the planet and shows up as many Transformers as possible. If there were a toy of Smokescreen around, I could at least blame [url="http://tfwiki.net/wiki/To_sell_toys"]that phenomena[/url].

Smokescreen's failures? Blasted in the back by a vehicon while chasing after the Star Saber balanced out because he still manages to discover the location of said weapon. Gets kidnapped by Soundwave, which sets him up to retrieve the keys. The whole thing with Starscream? At Starscream's speed with Red Energon I might as well blame someone for not stopping the semi that hit them. Besides,

datguy86 wrote:At least Starscream's special brand of self-serving made the episode interesting.

Of course, Starscream could have killed Smokescreen by stabbing him in the back since that's Starscream's M.O., but hey.

I do hope you are right and his recklessness comes back to bite him, but at this point in time the fallout will be Smokescreen getting a decent character killed. Hot Rod Syndrome? We'll see.

As for the topic; the hat tasted good and Smokescreen's an Autobot.

datguy86 wrote:Both situations which placed Smokescreen in the apt position of escaping a Decepticon Warship with three artifacts, while simultaneously angering Megatron. On a thematic level, I know this escape is supposed to be juxtaposed against Starscream's infiltration (right down to Megs and Op screaming in rage); Starscream at least has a history of complicating situations since defecting from the 'Cons. Smokescreen just gets dropped on the planet and shows up as many Transformers as possible. If there were a toy of Smokescreen around, I could at least blame [url="http://tfwiki.net/wiki/To_sell_toys"]that phenomena[/url].

He only escaped the ship as easily as he did since he used the Phase Shifter. Had he not had it (like, if he wasn't wearing it when he got captured so that Knock Out wouldn't take it from him), then he'd likely still be strapped down and cut open to have the key removed, and still be there since he wouldn't be able to phase out of his restraints and the room itself. He got away because he had that deus ex machina to get himself out and without a scratch.

datguy86 wrote:Smokescreen's failures? Blasted in the back by a vehicon while chasing after the Star Saber balanced out because he still manages to discover the location of said weapon.

It was Ratchet who detected the Star Saber's location. All Smoke did was identify it. Jack contacted Ratchet who contacted the others who went after both it and Smokescreen (who got himself captured due to his brash stupidity), and Optimus went all Spider-Man scaling the mountainside to get the sword. The most significant thing Smokescreen did there was look at it and say, "That looks like the Star Saber." The rest was done by everyone else.

datguy86 wrote:Gets kidnapped by Soundwave, which sets him up to retrieve the keys.

All thanks to the Magic MacGuffinshroom that is the Phase Shifter.

datguy86 wrote:The whole thing with Starscream? At Starscream's speed with Red Energon I might as well blame someone for not stopping the semi that hit them. Besides,

datguy86 wrote:At least Starscream's special brand of self-serving made the episode interesting.

Yeah, Scream was just that conniving.

datguy86 wrote:Of course, Starscream could have killed Smokescreen by stabbing him in the back since that's Starscream's M.O., but hey.

Business before pleasure, I guess.

datguy86 wrote:I do hope you are right and his recklessness comes back to bite him, but at this point in time the fallout will be Smokescreen getting a decent character killed. Hot Rod Syndrome? We'll see.

I hope so too. So far, his rashness got him captured when going after the Star Saber, but that's it so far. He needs to make more mistakes so he can learn from them.

Though, at least he's not one of those characters that even all the other characters think is a great, oh-so-perfect, saint. That would be way too far into Gary Stu territory.

Let's avoid some wall of text:

1) Phase Shifter is mos def a Deux Ex Machina. Smokescreen's luck/skill is firmly in Gary Stu territory, though.
2) Discover on the Star Saber - you're right. I got nothing.
3) Soundwave does Taken: See point 1.

datguy86 wrote:Of course, Starscream could have killed Smokescreen by stabbing him in the back since that's Starscream's M.O., but hey.

Business before pleasure, I guess.[/quote]

That's the thing - he'd finished the business and pleasure would have been easy. Take a look at "Inside Job". If Arcee hadn't had her hand on the lever Starscream would have stabbed them all at super speed. Kind of like a drive-by knifing at ridiculous speed.

datguy86 wrote:I do hope you are right and his recklessness comes back to bite him, but at this point in time the fallout will be Smokescreen getting a decent character killed. Hot Rod Syndrome? We'll see.

I hope so too. So far, his rashness got him captured when going after the Star Saber, but that's it so far. He needs to make more mistakes so he can learn from them.

Though, at least he's not one of those characters that even all the other characters think is a great, oh-so-perfect, saint. That would be way too far into Gary Stu territory.[/quote]

There are times he's not reprimanded enough by other Autobots. And by that I mean flat out yelled at for being stupid. Arcee would the exception, seeing how she is falling into the Team Mom role. However, Team Prime is a family and Smokescreen is an outsider, so I'm not sure where Cybertronian values dictate which lines can and cannot be crossed by a non-superior officer.

datguy86 wrote:Smokescreen's luck/skill is firmly in Gary Stu territory, though.

I think the main problem here isn't that Smokescreen is being written better than everyone, but that he's the ONLY one of the Autobots they're actually bothering to right competently at all. Everyone else is so dull and uninteresting that it makes Smokescreen seem so special, when really he's exactly the kind of character this show has desperately needed for a long time. Wouldn't it be so much better if all of the Autobots were being written with that same level of cunning and ingenuity? They're all stick-in-the-muds with their standard procedures, while Smokescreen is the only one providing any real creativity on the team. It's not that he needs to step down from his awesomeness, it's that the others need to step up their game to being as well written a character as he is. As they are, they're just boring.

datguy86 wrote:That's the thing - he'd finished the business and pleasure would have been easy. Take a look at "Inside Job". If Arcee hadn't had her hand on the lever Starscream would have stabbed them all at super speed. Kind of like a drive-by knifing at ridiculous speed.

Thing is, it's because she had her hand on the lever that he had no time to stab them. He had quite a load to carry that was slowing him down, so he was pressed for time because Arcee had begun pulling back the lever.

datguy86 wrote:There are times he's not reprimanded enough by other Autobots. And by that I mean flat out yelled at for being stupid. Arcee would the exception, seeing how she is falling into the Team Mom role. However, Team Prime is a family and Smokescreen is an outsider, so I'm not sure where Cybertronian values dictate which lines can and cannot be crossed by a non-superior officer.

I kinda fine this funny since this is the first I've heard of anyone here approving of Arcee's berating him, whereas others on this board are starting to hate her for it.

Sabrblade wrote:

datguy86 wrote:Smokescreen's luck/skill is firmly in Gary Stu territory, though.

I think the main problem here isn't that Smokescreen is being written better than everyone, but that he's the ONLY one of the Autobots they're actually bothering to right competently at all. Everyone else is so dull and uninteresting that it makes Smokescreen seem so special, when really he's exactly the kind of character this show has desperately needed for a long time. Wouldn't it be so much better if all of the Autobots were being written with that same level of cunning and ingenuity? They're all stick-in-the-muds with their standard procedures, while Smokescreen is the only one providing any real creativity on the team. It's not that he needs to step down from his awesomeness, it's that the others need to step up their game to being as well written a character as he is. As they are, they're just boring.

My complaint is that until Smokescreen came along, the Autobots were plenty resourceful. Bulkhead brought down the Decepticon ship and OP immediately followed up with the decision to use the Spark Extractor. After his stint as Orion Pax, Megatron is on his knees before Prime and Prime is about to murder him to end the war. Bumblebee is already Smokescreen without the voice - his victories over Skyquake and Starscream come to mind in matters of skill and ingenuity. You're right that Smokescreen's the only character being written about, but it's at the competency of the existing characters.

Sabrblade wrote:

datguy86 wrote:That's the thing - he'd finished the business and pleasure would have been easy. Take a look at "Inside Job". If Arcee hadn't had her hand on the lever Starscream would have stabbed them all at super speed. Kind of like a drive-by knifing at ridiculous speed.

Thing is, it's because she had her hand on the lever that he had no time to stab them. He had quite a load to carry that was slowing him down, so he was pressed for time because Arcee had begun pulling back the lever.

Yes. That was my whole point with "Inside Job". Arcee's hand is pushing down the lever. Time's still moving so even without the keys I'd doubt he would have enough time to kill all three and leave. However, judging by his willingness to do so while the Autobots are incapacitated; why didn't Starscream kill Smokescreen when he stole the key from him earlier? He had the time. The only thing I can think of is because he wanted to overhear any conversation about the relic, but that could have been accomplished when the Autobots came to pick up the body. In this case the writers are deliberately writing Smokescreen as untouchable.

Sabrblade wrote:

datguy86 wrote:There are times he's not reprimanded enough by other Autobots. And by that I mean flat out yelled at for being stupid. Arcee would the exception, seeing how she is falling into the Team Mom role. However, Team Prime is a family and Smokescreen is an outsider, so I'm not sure where Cybertronian values dictate which lines can and cannot be crossed by a non-superior officer.

I kinda fine this funny since this is the first I've heard of anyone here approving of Arcee's berating him, whereas others on this board are starting to hate her for it.

Actually, I like Arcee better as the embittered warrior. Team Mom seems more Ratchet's role. But yeah, someone needs to yell at Smokescreen. Optimus disappointed me when he told Arcee to lay off Smokescreen.

Also, since Smokescreen has arrived, have you noticed the time with the kids is lessened considerably? Raf is understandably out of the picture due to his relocation, Miko has all but disappeared, and Smokescreen literally sent off Jack. A lot of character development went into Jack at the end of last season and the beginning of this season and now it's vanishing. While less humans are typically a better thing for Transformer series in general, there's a lot of consistency lost since Smokescreen showed up.

Wow. I have not typed this much about a show or game without reviewing it in years.

datguy86 wrote:You're right that Smokescreen's the only character being written about, but it's at the competency of the existing characters.

Exactly. It's like the writers simply ran out of ideas for all the characters and are pouring all their efforts onto Smokescreen. Why can't they write everyone at the same level as him instead of making them look bad by comparison?

datguy86 wrote:In this case the writers are deliberately writing Smokescreen as untouchable.

Well, if he wanted to leave Smokescreen alive so he could overhear the discussion of the Omega Keys, then it could have been any Autobot he knocked out. It just happened to be Smokescreen who got to the key first. Had Smoke stayed behind to fight Dreadwing while Bulkhead went for the key, then Bulk would have been the one Scream knocked out and left alive.

datguy86 wrote:Actually, I like Arcee better as the embittered warrior. Team Mom seems more Ratchet's role. But yeah, someone needs to yell at Smokescreen. Optimus disappointed me when he told Arcee to lay off Smokescreen.

Thank you. Can you please speak up about this in the Official TF: Prime Discussion Thread? People there are wanting Arcee to die because they don't like her berating him.

datguy86 wrote:Also, since Smokescreen has arrived, have you noticed the time with the kids is lessened considerably? Raf is understandably out of the picture due to his relocation, Miko has all but disappeared, and Smokescreen literally sent off Jack. A lot of character development went into Jack at the end of last season and the beginning of this season and now it's vanishing. While less humans are typically a better thing for Transformer series in general, there's a lot of consistency lost since Smokescreen showed up.

with Raf, it's understandable like you said. Though, I think that back when these episodes were being made, they were looking for a new voice for Raf since it was stated at NYCC 2011 (last year) that they needed to recast Raf since Andy Pessoa was hitting puberty. Thus far, all episodes of season 2 have had Raf still voiced by him, so these Raf-less episodes were probably made during the time of Raf's recasting.

Miko gone for now =

As for Jack, yeah, he did have a lot of developemtn put into him, but he didn't really do much after the Orion Pax episodes. Okay, he went to New York to help get the Phase Shifter, but that's it. His story was pretty much complete before Smokescreen came, so he's gotten to the point that he needs to be at.

Though, I'm sure all three will be back since an interview Ryan and Jon had with Josh Keaton and Tania Gunadi had the two mention that they were both already recording for season 3.

datguy86 wrote:Wow. I have not typed this much about a show or game without reviewing it in years.

Fun, ain't it?

I think they are trying to build Smokescreen's profile up so we...the audience gets attached to him...and we will feel the impact when they kill him off. Just my theory