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Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon (but now it's not!)

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby spiderbob007 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:48 pm

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby MattMoylan » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:28 pm

Well as a fan artist, I understand Hasbro has to protect their IP and am surprised they ever let any of us sell our unofficial art at previous Botcons.

But, this pretty much seals the deal that I won't be setting up at any future Botcons. I guess I am TFcon exclusive!
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:55 pm

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MattMoylan wrote:Well as a fan artist, I understand Hasbro has to protect their IP and am surprised they ever let any of us sell our unofficial art at previous Botcons.

But, this pretty much seals the deal that I won't be setting up at any future Botcons. I guess I am TFcon exclusive!


I think I remember asking you in the thread I posted about your site update, but you weren't planning on going this year anyways, right? But one less attraction at future Botcons. Shame.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby alternator77 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:29 pm

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next thing you know hasbro canada wants to participate in tfcon and dairy con and all other cons :BANG_HEAD: :BANG_HEAD:

and for the record botcon doesnt mean "autoBOT and deceptiCON" IT MEANS BOT CONvention just like san diego comicon stands for san dieago COMIc CONvention. they do sell more than comics though.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Fires_Of_Inferno » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:30 pm

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All the dealers who were selling 3rd party stuff and artwork should set up in the parking lot, or an empty lot nearby and just sell there. Have a guy actually IN the convention handing out cards with directions to where the mini dealers area is set up and how long it will be there for.

Though I've never been to botcon (and probably not going to go to one) so I dunno the area and I don't know how much pre-reg for a dealers table is.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:50 pm

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Well, never been to a Botcon before. Now... I'm fairly sure I never will.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:57 pm

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Personally I saw this coming after they announced no 3rd party sellers. And like the 3rd party ban, I feel they are well within there right. Not only that, but it makes 100% sense why they are doing so.

Autobot032 wrote:I think we'll see lawsuits from the fans, over this. I'm sure they'll lose, but at least it'll make a notable case for all to see. Even show Hasbro that we are willing to fight back.


You'd be correct that they would loose, and rightfully so. Fighting back? From what exactly? Selling art work with there IP property at their convention? I don't see anything morally wrong with what hasbro is doing in that regard.


Autobot032 wrote:Now...threats of your wares being confiscated, reporting to the authorities, physical removal from the premises, plus now you're not allowed to showcase your artistic talent, even though they give you a venue to do so.


This is not true. You are allowed to showcase your talent, you just can't sell your art work at their convention. Big difference.

Autobot032 wrote: And all of this comes AFTER you bought and paid, in full, your tickets, accommodations, various fees, etc...all on a promise you'd be given the same experience this year, had in prior years.


Now this is where I agree Hasbro was shady. While everything they did was within there legal right, this part was a bit shady on their part and should have been announced from the get go.

Autobot032 wrote:To me, that seems shady and dishonest. It reeks of illegality, but most likely isn't actionable. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have someone stand up and fight back. In a twist of fate, you might just run into a judge who would see the plight of the fans and say they're owed their lost money back, because they were given promises and expectations in lieu of money. And it was never delivered. .


Is their any fine print in the tickets? In most cases the host has the right to change the rules whenever they want. More than likely this is the case.


Autobot032 wrote:Like I said, I'm sure it'd be laughed out of a court room, but you never know unless you try.

I'd be trying my best to find out how to get my money back.


I don't know what fan art goes for these days, but my guess is by the time you figure in lawyer fee's, time off work for court, etc, it doesn't seem worth it. maybe a class action law suit would work better, but i still feel your right in that there just isn't any case other than "Big bad hasbro is being mean!!" :P

One thing i haven't seen anyone else bring up...
People keep bring up that this doesn't hurt Habro's bottom line $, so what their doing is just a dick move to the fans. So what about those companies that sell art and comics that have license agreements? Posters and what not? Whats the difference between these and fan art being sold? Why should these companies have to pay for a license to SELL Hasbro's IP, but fans should be able to profit for nothing? So no, i don't see this as a shot in the foot to fans at all. I see this as making things an even playing field. Again, their not saying you can't bring and show off your art work, you just can't sell it.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Rated X » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:01 pm

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Fan art will be sold at Botcon. It will be like “Here’s my card, come check me out at room 187 after 8 PM”.

Hasbro is really shooting themselves in the foot with this whole 3rd party thing. Whether it’s their convention or not, they forgot it’s a Transformers convention, not a Hasbro convention. Although we have a few self proclaimed lawyers and stockholders among us, the majority of Transformers fans are loyal to the actual Transformers characters, not the corporate entity that owns their copyrights. I personally could care less who owns the rights to the Transformer franchise. It could be Bridget the Midget for all I care…
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby RhA » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:38 pm

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Rated X wrote:Fan art will be sold at Botcon. It will be like “Here’s my card, come check me out at room 187 after 8 PM”.

Hasbro is really shooting themselves in the foot with this whole 3rd party thing. Whether it’s their convention or not, they forgot it’s a Transformers convention, not a Hasbro convention. Although we have a few self proclaimed lawyers and stockholders among us, the majority of Transformers fans are loyal to the actual Transformers characters, not the corporate entity that owns their copyrights. I personally could care less who owns the rights to the Transformer franchise. It could be Bridget the Midget for all I care…


Please define 'true Transformer fan' because you keep bringing that up.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Simes » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:54 am

The issue regarding artists and dealers (and Botcon have been issuing refunds to ones who have been cancelling) is something that they needed to clarify before taking any money as they were well aware that changing terms and conditions significantly like this would affect many if not all of them who would have been in attendance.

They have been aware for several years now that the majority of pre-booked tickets sell within the first few weeks of going on sale and that dealers and artists then start to make travel and accommodation plans. Very few airlines and hotels are willing to issue refunds for cancellations and even if you have taken our travel insurance that wouldn't be covered by making a decision not to travel under these circumstances so again you would lose out.

I've said it elsewhere, but comic artists seldom make enough money to live on from just working for comic publishers and often have to have "regular" jobs to help them pay the bills because of the relatively low pay that comic art offers. It is attending conventions and shows that help greatly giving them tne opportunity to sell original art, sketches and prints that give that small additional art that helps pay the rent. Even then, with travel and hotel expenses and with most conventions expecting artists to pay for their own tables they still need to sell very large volumes to even cover their costs. Sadly, there are very few conventions that actually treat artists like "proper" guests and cover their expenses despite using their names to promote the convention.

With regards to unofficial conventions like ourselves at Auto Assembly, TFCon, Savcon, Dairycon, Slag-A-Con and countless others - we are all trying to offer the type of event that is fan driven, what people actually want and without any constraints dictated by Hasbro. I hope that I can speak for the other organisers here in saying that if Hasbro did try to tell any of us what to do that we would sever our association with them in order to continue doing what we do best.

Finally, with regards to fan sites, Hasbro genuinely wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Paramount attempted to close Star Trek fan sites, fan clubs and fan conventions down back in the 90s and failed because the law was on the side of the fans. Fan activities had been long enough established in the eyes of the law and had been seen as being accepted by Paramount without any requests to cease that Paramount had no legal grounds to request that they stopped. In fact, on the official Star Trek website now there are even links to fan sites!

In Hasbro's case, they have been working with several fan conventions so they have established supporting links themselves so again they can't suddenly decide to tell them to stop running when they have already made it clear that they are happy with them existing.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby vectorA3 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:55 am

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How artists can stick it to Hasbro -- only sell art of TF characters that Hasbro failed to reclaim/no longer owns the rights to! Hah!!!


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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Bullycon » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:35 am

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vectorA3 wrote:How artists can stick it to Hasbro -- only sell art of TF characters that Hasbro failed to reclaim/no longer owns the rights to! Hah!!!

Hasbro has the rights to all Transformers characters. They may not have the Trademarks needed to release toys under certain names, but the characters and likenesses still belong to Hasbro.

The reaction to Hasbro's current legal moves hilariously reminds me of my experiences as a football official. Fans will boo you for a call that you know is right. You can explain the rule, the interpretation of the rule, how the rule is applied to the play and how it's been applied to previous plays. But they will continue to boo, insisting that they are right based on what they think the rule is or what they think the rule should be.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:02 am

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Rated X wrote:
Hasbro is really shooting themselves in the foot with this whole 3rd party thing. Whether it’s their convention or not, they forgot it’s a Transformers convention, not a Hasbro convention.…


Wrong. They own the rights. So yes, it is a Hasbro convention.

Rated X wrote: Although we have a few self proclaimed lawyers and stockholders among us, the majority of Transformers fans are loyal to the actual Transformers characters, not the corporate entity that owns their copyrights. I personally could care less who owns the rights to the Transformer franchise. It could be Bridget the Midget for all I care…


Of course you don't care. Your the fan. As long as you get what you want, who cares right?
Again I ask.. Whats the difference of a comic book company having to secure a license to sell Hasbro IP vs. 3rd party selling printed art?

Simes wrote: Even then, with travel and hotel expenses and with most conventions expecting artists to pay for their own tables they still need to sell very large volumes to even cover their costs. Sadly, there are very few conventions that actually treat artists like "proper" guests and cover their expenses despite using their names to promote the convention.



Why should a convention cover an artist cost so they (the artist) can profit? The fact that these people don't make much doing the art work is irrelevent. They choose to do the art. No ones forcing them. What about the other dealers/vedors that people come to these conventions to see? With your line of thinking, they should get a free spot too.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:19 am

Due to the last minute nature of the announcement and the way it was presented they deserve every bit of flack they get over it. Had they said this at the very beginning of registration, I'd be saying something different.

They should have had all their rules and regulations in place BEFORE anyone signed up. Changing it now, while legal and fine on their end, leaves others in the lurch. THAT is my problem with them on this.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Simes » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:45 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:Why should a convention cover an artist cost so they (the artist) can profit? The fact that these people don't make much doing the art work is irrelevent. They choose to do the art. No ones forcing them. What about the other dealers/vedors that people come to these conventions to see? With your line of thinking, they should get a free spot too.


Comic artists are being marketed as guests and promoted as such. People are buying tickets to attend conventions (not just Botcon in this instance) to see those guests and morally if nothing else those artists deserve some show of respect. If they are being used to promote the show (and Botcon has frequently had pages on their website dedicated to all of the artists who are appearing in Artists Alley) then they should give them the courtesy of being able to cover their costs of attending or make it affordable for them to attend as guests.

As a convention organiser for almost 25 years, it is simply disrespectful to any guest to expect them to attend and not offer to cover their expenses and leave them with no opportunity to recover their costs... would you expect David Kaye or Garry Chalk to do the same? Of course not but because it's "just" an artist there are some people who seem to think that it's okay for them to have to pay to attend.

Sorry, but that is just wrong.

And as for comparing the artists to dealers... dealers are there specifically to make money. Botcon doesn't promote its dealers as a way for attendees to browse or get things free but there will be people who will attend and just want to meet artists or get autographs and not want to buy prints or sketches and I don't know any comic artists who would charge for this. Artists attend for the love of Transformers, but they don't want to get screwed over and lose money for being a guest and helping Botcon in the process.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:41 pm

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Simes wrote:Comic artists are being marketed as guests and promoted as such. People are buying tickets to attend conventions (not just Botcon in this instance) to see those guests and morally if nothing else those artists deserve some show of respect. If they are being used to promote the show (and Botcon has frequently had pages on their website dedicated to all of the artists who are appearing in Artists Alley) then they should give them the courtesy of being able to cover their costs of attending or make it affordable for them to attend as guests.


If they are truly being invited by Hasbro to attend, sign autographs, used in promotions etc, then perhaps they should be given a free ticket inside. That i can go with. But the second they open up and use botcon to start selling their art/comics etc, then it becomes a different story. You cover your costs by selling your product. If as many people are coming to see these artist as you say they are, then they must be pretty good. If that's the case, then they shouldn't have a problem making money on there art. (of course I'm talking about the selling of licensed IP :P )

Admittedly, i haven't attended a Botcon so i don't know exactly how many artist show up in the "artist alley', but I have a hard time believing that its these people that completely make the event.


Simes wrote: As a convention organiser for almost 25 years, it is simply disrespectful to any guest to expect them to attend and not offer to cover their expenses and leave them with no opportunity to recover their costs... would you expect David Kaye or Garry Chalk to do the same? Of course not but because it's "just" an artist there are some people who seem to think that it's okay for them to have to pay to attend.

Sorry, but that is just wrong.


So do you expect every artist to get a free ride? You say your a convention organiser, so you should know the cost associated with covering floor space, air fare and hotels. You really think from a financial stand point that it makes sense to cover the cost of the floor space as well as the possible air fare and hotels? I'm not talking about a moral stand point. Cause the convention owners can't be paid on morals.



Simes wrote:And as for comparing the artists to dealers... dealers are there specifically to make money. Botcon doesn't promote its dealers as a way for attendees to browse or get things free but there will be people who will attend and just want to meet artists or get autographs and not want to buy prints or sketches and I don't know any comic artists who would charge for this. Artists attend for the love of Transformers, but they don't want to get screwed over and lose money for being a guest and helping Botcon in the process.


Again, if they are invited guests from Hasbro, then perhaps Hasbro should help them out. But if these people are taking it upon themselves to set up tables for autographs, as well as making a few bucks to sell there art and comics, then they need to pay for the space. I'll use another example..

I'm a big racing fan. Mainly F1 and Drifting. People go to these races to see there favorite drivers compete. Some teams are bigger than others and draw in more fans. So should the drivers be allowed to compete for free? should they not have to pay the drivers fee to enter? Should the race venue cover the hotel costs and transport of the race cars to the track? You really think that's feasible?
These drivers make there money back from sponsors.
Artist get there money back from selling their art work. (again, using the IP with a license)
But you know what it all really comes down to? If it really cost the artist more money than its worth than just don't go. I'd love to write a bit more, but my lunch break is over. :-(
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Botcon Reverse Ban on Fan Art Sales

Postby GetRightRobot » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:31 pm

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With Botcon only 21 days away, we have another policy change for 2012. This time, it is the reversal of the fan art sales ban in 'Artist Alley'. According to a post by tfw2005.com user, Shibamura Prime, we have this message from the folks at Botcon:

We're pleased to announce, per Hasbro, that artist tables will be allowed at BotCon 2012 as we have allowed it in the past, and will be permissible as part of the show. Hasbro sympathizes and understands fans' discouragement with the previous statements concerning fan art, and while remaining steadfast in the right to protect its IP in regards to unlicensed merchandise, wants to ensure fans can continue to enjoy the BotCon experience which they know is made so great in large part by the fan community.


This means artist will be able to sell their unlicensed artwork for all to enjoy. Will this lifted ban remain the standard for Botcons to come? Only time will tell.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby joevill » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:42 pm

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Beericade » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:44 pm

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Day late and a dollar short. I've already made my decision about Botcon. There are too many others out there that are NOT being arsehats.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby AutobotCliffjumper » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:57 pm

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lol....shooting themselves in the foot much?! They've put their foot in the s**t and realizes that they don't like the f****n' smell. Done with Botcon. :BANG_HEAD: :HEADHURTS: :BANG_HEAD: :HEADHURTS: :BANG_HEAD: :HEADHURTS: :BOOM:
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby 1111111222233333 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:10 pm

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Come on guys, I think Hasbro deserves some slack for this one. This decision means they are listening. (at least somewhat)
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby City Commander » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:19 pm

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Reads to me like they're testing the water, seeing how much bullshit they can throw the fans' way before most jump ship.



I mean, no fan art at a fan convention, seriously, who makes a decision like that in the first place?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Che » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:27 pm

Hope this also show all us that, yes, sometimes it is GOOD to complain...
(hate apathy...)
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby vaporretarder » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:29 pm

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couldn't someone sell a 3rd party figure there now,...and then if hasbro tries to confiscate the item,...that person could now sue Harbro because they said that fan ART was allowed at the convention?

and in a certain perspective a figure could be concieved as a work of art....just throwing that out there...
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Rated X » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:37 pm

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Im curious...

This whole 3rd party ban thing is only being distrubuted by fan websites. I checked the Botcon 2012 official website and there is no mention of any of these "alleged" 3rd party bans. And I get all Botcon update e-mails from Funpub and have never recieved one regarding a 3rd party ban. Wasnt Hasbro supposed to put out an official statement on their website ? Or did only people who bought a dealers admission recieve these e-mails about this ? Right now it seems that if you dont read fan websites, you would never know about this whole thing. Can somebody please post a link regarding the 3rd party ban that doesnt originate from a fan website or a known fan website member ???

By the way, the art sales ban was f**kin ****** to begin with. When you pay to visit a museum and view art, the museum profits from the admission fee. So Funpub is technically making money from unsanctioned artwork even if it is for display only. So if Funpub can make profit from the art, the artists should be able to make profit too.
Last edited by Rated X on Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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