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Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon (but now it's not!)

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby JelZe GoldRabbit » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:05 pm

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Dorkimus wrote:
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
AdamPrime wrote:You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?


Totally different story. Hasbro already has your money (actually, the money from the store buying their stock) from way back when the 2nd hand toys were first bought. Do you see other companies suing stores that deal in 2nd hand items? No. It's basic economics with the supplier not being a company, but an individual, a middleman as it were. Perfectly legal.


Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.


Really? Never heard of that story.

My guess is that is to prevent software piracy, as I can imagine it's pretty easy to copy games onto a blank cartridge or disk if you have the right equipment. With us in the Netherlands we're pretty strict on software sales: exchange within 24 hours, or if it has a one-use activation code, no exchange at all.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Megatron Wolf » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:05 pm

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well if their goal is to alienate people its working, they're going to lose a fair amount of people because of this and everything else they're pulling these days. Seems hasbros finally found their god complex.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:14 pm

So lame.

Question: how big is artist's alley at Botcon? How big will this affect the con?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Torgon02 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:18 pm

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JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
Dorkimus wrote:
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
AdamPrime wrote:You know what bugs me?

Hasbro stomp on 3rd party, unlicensed or unofficial works because they receive no benefit (read: money) from the sale of such things. The other party is profiting from Hasbro's characters and established efforts.

So, how is selling second-hand toys any better? Hasbro don't see a cent from the thousands of dollars that changes hands for old toys - be it Armada, Beast Wars, a MISB Fort Max or Galaxy Shuttle. What is happening is the same, dealers are making money (sometimes, a LOT of money) from Hasbro's intellectual property.

So why allow it? What's the difference between a box of G1 figures, and a handpainted picture of a G1 character, say. Both will change hands for money. Hasbro will not receive any profit. Should toy dealers apply for licenses now, or be banned from selling?


Totally different story. Hasbro already has your money (actually, the money from the store buying their stock) from way back when the 2nd hand toys were first bought. Do you see other companies suing stores that deal in 2nd hand items? No. It's basic economics with the supplier not being a company, but an individual, a middleman as it were. Perfectly legal.


Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.


Really? Never heard of that story.

My guess is that is to prevent software piracy, as I can imagine it's pretty easy to copy games onto a blank cartridge or disk if you have the right equipment. With us in the Netherlands we're pretty strict on software sales: exchange within 24 hours, or if it has a one-use activation code, no exchange at all.


I actually have a couple of DS games like that. To activate the games online functionality it registered the game/console combination so I can never use that cartridge online in different console or with a different user account.

EA is leading the way for a total ban on all used game sales with the idea that every time someone buys a used game they lose a new copy sale :BANG_HEAD:
And I think it's Warner Bro's who is trying to do the same with movies :BANG_HEAD: :BANG_HEAD:
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:41 pm

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As a customizer who has spent roughly $300 on materials and 80+ hours on a Botcon custom entry, F**K You. I won't be bother bringing it. I'll ebay it, the same way I will get all of my future Botcon/Club exclusives. I'm done.

If you plan to protect Intellectual Properties includes chasing off your fanbase, it's working.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby NatsumeRyu » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:42 pm

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This was the logical next step. I didn't think I'd see it come to fruition this soon though.

Good thing cosplayers don't make any money or I'd be terrified of costuming. I'm almost happy I'm having trouble finding the time to finish brawl.... :S

Still, these actions show us where hasbro's focus is. The copyrights are their main focus, not much else....
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby zodconvoy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:42 pm

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It sounds to me like Botcon is eating itself. What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby metaphorge » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:45 pm

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zodconvoy wrote:What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.
You hit the nail on the head.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby JelZe GoldRabbit » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:46 pm

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metaphorge wrote:
zodconvoy wrote:What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.
You hit the nail on the head.


Hadn't that been the case since OTFCC 2003?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Dark Ops » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:49 pm

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So what's going to be in Artist Alley? Three guys with some Mazinger fan art, one guy who really likes Go-Bots, and a tumbleweed?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby kirbenvost » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:00 pm

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zodconvoy wrote:It sounds to me like Botcon is eating itself. What was a fan con became a company convention and is now a corporate presentation that we are graciously allowed to pay to attend.


Yep. Maybe they ought to save themselves some money and just post pics of new products online. Who needs Funpub? OH WAIT. The profit they make from charging $300+ for 5 toys is probably still worth it to Hasbro.

So they're essentially also saying that hard-working artists shouldn't be paid for their work if it contains images of Hasbro property. Seems pretty BS to me. Why don't they compromise and require artists who wish to sell art purchase a one-time license for say $10 and they are permitted to sell their work for the duration of the 'Con. Hasbro gets their cut, everyone's (generally) happy. Y'know, instead of being dicks and outright banning it.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby RhA » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:01 pm

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby njb902 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:11 pm

guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby metaphorge » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:14 pm

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njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....
The problem with this strategy (as I pointed out above) is it's rapidly becoming difficult to produce decent toys that can be sold inexpensivey, thus why Hasbro is trying to get out of the toy business....
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Dead Metal » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:17 pm

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Just watch, the next thing to fall victim will be the cosplay! :lol:
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:23 pm

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njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....



A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby metaphorge » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:43 pm

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I'm more than a bit fed up with people making excuses for corporations taking foolish measures to protect their intellectual property against imagined threats. I'm a Transformers fan, not a Hasbro apologist.

If Hasbro wants fan loyalty they have to continue to earn it, especially since their entire business model rests heavily on exploiting parents' nostalgia for their own childhoods....
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby njb902 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:51 pm

GetRightRobot wrote:
njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....



A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?


but hasbro didn't start botcon they juat co-opted it. they saw a way to make a quick buck and ran with it. also I apologize for getting off topic, I wasn't commenting on botcon so much as on hasbro.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby RhA » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:53 pm

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GetRightRobot wrote:
njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....



A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?


This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:59 pm

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RhA wrote:
GetRightRobot wrote:
njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....



A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?


This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.



....counted.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Dead Metal » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:05 pm

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GetRightRobot wrote:
RhA wrote:
GetRightRobot wrote:
njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....



A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?


This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.



....counted.

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby NTESHFT » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:05 pm

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RhA wrote:
GetRightRobot wrote:
njb902 wrote:guys/girls this is a toy company.....its "targeted" audience are children. it isn't very surprising they don't worry about their adult consumers. as long as kids go to stores and say mommy I want a transformer hasbro is happy. when they become unhappy they arnt going to worry about changeing things they are just going to move on........so yeah no more transformers.....



A counter intuitive argument seeing as we are talking about a convention that no children can register for.

Anyone under the age of what? 18? has to be accompanied by an adult. A half Generation One themed boxed set.... for kids who weren't even alive for G1?


This is truly a fan-thing indeed. This is arguably the ONLY place where our opinion truly counts.



Yeah, well it looks as though even our voice won't count there for much longer.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby craggy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:33 pm

I'd sggest that any artsits out there who like to make money could take something they own the rights to, be it a small-press comic, prints of your own characters, or, if 2nd hand toys are okay, a bunch of cyberverse guys or something, and offer Free Sketches with the purchase of something Hasbro hasn't banned. Or, y'know, try to sell sketches of stuff they're not claiming ownership of. Original GoBots designs or something.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:47 pm

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craggy wrote:I'd sggest that any artsits out there who like to make money could take something they own the rights to, be it a small-press comic, prints of your own characters, or, if 2nd hand toys are okay, a bunch of cyberverse guys or something, and offer Free Sketches with the purchase of something Hasbro hasn't banned. Or, y'know, try to sell sketches of stuff they're not claiming ownership of. Original GoBots designs or something.



..oooorrrrrrr, save a bunch of money by not paying their ridiculous admission costs and go to a FAN convention like TFCon, DairyCon, TFExpo, Auto Assembly, Roll out Roll Call. Instead of paying to get into a Corporate Function.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby cybercat » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Okay, Hasbro has a right--I guess--to protect their intellectual property. I work in academia. I write papers. People use my ideas in my papers to make their own papers. I don't get money, but in my field, I get credited--they must cite me as their source. So I GET IP and wanting to be credited, even though in my case it has never fattened my wallet.

Here's the dumb thing, though: I can see their beef against direct competition: toys. I can't see their beef against fan art or fan crafts, because they're actually not LOSING any money. If they're not selling a competitive product, they are losing NOTHING.

Botcon is the big loser here, in both meanings of the word. I think they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and honestly, I'm wondering if it's even worth it to go this year, and if I do go, I'm pretty sure I will NOT be attending future ones: the only reason I'd go is I've already sunk money into airfare, etc that's nonrefundable.

But to me, the dickest of dick moves, honestly, is that this is just breaking NOW. The fact that they're sending these letters out now to me is an admission that they're changing policy--in a sense, they are VIOLATING THE CONTRACT that they have made AA's sign, and pay for. If they'd announced all of this BEFORE registration, I assure you, my decision to attend or not would have been a NON decision, and I would have kept my money.

In short, breaking this with less than 30 days to go till Con time? When people have no choice to cancel their registrations? WRONG ANSWER.

HK, srsly.
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