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Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon (but now it's not!)

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby craggy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:30 pm

hellkitty wrote:Here's the dumb thing, though: I can see their beef against direct competition: toys. I can't see their beef against fan art or fan crafts, because they're actually not LOSING any money. If they're not selling a competitive product, they are losing NOTHING.

allow me to play "unicron's lawyer" for a second...
But I'm pretty sure Hasbro can in some way claim to be losing money off Joe Bloggs drawing a nice picture of Starscream and selling it for $5. Hasbro sell a license to IDW to create comic books, which are essentially paper with pictures of transformers on them. I'd suspect, although haven't actually seen any lately, that IDW or a 3rd party have a license to create art prints and posters and stuff featuring the art from those comics, and I'm fairly certain there must be some company somewhere getting paid to produce posters featuring the movie renders of Prime and Bumblebee, that are clogging up space in stores across the land as we speak.

This sort of corporate BS isn't new. The Mouse recently hit an old man with a lawsuit because he was selling Ghost Rider prints. The man was Gary Friedrich who cannot be legally named as the creator of Ghost Rider, because Herr Disney got a court order to stop such identification being made. That's in an industry that publishes the names of the creators of the work (which is done on a work for hire contract, same as IDW's comics, or Takara's toy engineering) on the covers of the products. You think Hasbro, who very rarely identify or acknowledge their designers, are going to go any easier on people?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Che » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:06 pm

=P
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby G1 Legacy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:10 pm

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GetRightRobot wrote:
I'm going to BOO the S**T outa these people at the panels. Wanna join in?


Dude, I AM SO THERE with you on that sentiment. I am SO exhausted at this point with this continuing series of setbacks as we get closer and closer to Botcon weekend. My biggest complaint that I mentioned weeks ago in another thread (Re: 3rd Party Ban) is why for the love of god are they waiting until THIS close to the actual function to implement these stupid-ass new rules AFTER everyone has pre-paid and gotten their financial commitments paid out and all types of other travel "ducks in a row". You don't advertise a function with the plan of serving "A" and then on the actual date in question change the plan to then serve "B". After I said that before in the other thread, someone on here disagreed and said they thought Hasbro had a right to do whatever they wanted on whatever time scale they chose, and thats fine if you wanna think that. But anyone that knows anything about taking care of your customer base can tell you that Hasbro is making a huge mistake this year with how they are choosing to implement all of these new protocols this late in the game. I've gotten used to Botcon being a certain way and if it's not going to be that way anymore then I'm probobly not going anymore.
I'm already committed to going this year and have made all these plans but I gotta be honest, it's looking like things are building up to be a big 'ol suck fest with plenty of SUCK. With gas going up at the rate that it is, I don't wanna drive all the way from Tallahassee to Dallas and back again just to have to sit through all of this "panel drama" and reduced market place and item availability. I really feel bad for the people spending more money than me on hotels and airfare. This whole situation seems to be getting out of hand at the last minute. At this point I'm mainly going to meet the people that will be there and for the gathering in general, it'll be nice to put a name and face togetheir for alot of the community members here.

I'm gonna wait and see how the site moderators and heiarchy of Seibertron decide to handle this as a group. I have a feeling that I'm not the only one who is feeling perturbed at this point.

Way to go Hasblow....way to go.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Kibble » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:33 pm

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Torgon02 wrote:
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
Dorkimus wrote:Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.


Really? Never heard of that story.

My guess is that is to prevent software piracy, as I can imagine it's pretty easy to copy games onto a blank cartridge or disk if you have the right equipment. With us in the Netherlands we're pretty strict on software sales: exchange within 24 hours, or if it has a one-use activation code, no exchange at all.


I actually have a couple of DS games like that. To activate the games online functionality it registered the game/console combination so I can never use that cartridge online in different console or with a different user account.

EA is leading the way for a total ban on all used game sales with the idea that every time someone buys a used game they lose a new copy sale :BANG_HEAD:
And I think it's Warner Bro's who is trying to do the same with movies :BANG_HEAD: :BANG_HEAD:


So what happens when your console shits out and you have to buy a new one? Your games no longer work? That seems like a bunch of BS...
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby JelZe GoldRabbit » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm

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Kibble wrote:
Torgon02 wrote:
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
Dorkimus wrote:Actually some game companies tried to stop people from re-selling their games. Some suggested making the games kind of a console bound. Meaning that once you put the game inside your console it is registered to that particular console only and basically you couldn't sell it forward. But I think that this didn't quite work. Don't remember all the details, but I guess it was against some laws and such.


Really? Never heard of that story.

My guess is that is to prevent software piracy, as I can imagine it's pretty easy to copy games onto a blank cartridge or disk if you have the right equipment. With us in the Netherlands we're pretty strict on software sales: exchange within 24 hours, or if it has a one-use activation code, no exchange at all.


I actually have a couple of DS games like that. To activate the games online functionality it registered the game/console combination so I can never use that cartridge online in different console or with a different user account.

EA is leading the way for a total ban on all used game sales with the idea that every time someone buys a used game they lose a new copy sale :BANG_HEAD:
And I think it's Warner Bro's who is trying to do the same with movies :BANG_HEAD: :BANG_HEAD:


So what happens when your console shits out and you have to buy a new one? Your games no longer work? That seems like a bunch of BS...


Only the online functions, like Net Play. But that's beside the point of this thread.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby T-Macksimus » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:39 pm

G1 Legacy wrote:GetRightRobot wrote:
I'm going to BOO the S**T outa these people at the panels. Wanna join in?


Dude, I AM SO THERE with you on that sentiment. I am SO exhausted at this point with this continuing series of setbacks as we get closer and closer to Botcon weekend. My biggest complaint that I mentioned weeks ago in another thread (Re: 3rd Party Ban) is why for the love of god are they waiting until THIS close to the actual function to implement these stupid-ass new rules AFTER everyone has pre-paid and gotten their financial commitments paid out and all types of other travel "ducks in a row". You don't advertise a function with the plan of serving "A" and then on the actual date in question change the plan to then serve "B". After I said that before in the other thread, someone on here disagreed and said they thought Hasbro had a right to do whatever they wanted on whatever time scale they chose, and thats fine if you wanna think that. But anyone that knows anything about taking care of your customer base can tell you that Hasbro is making a huge mistake this year with how they are choosing to implement all of these new protocols this late in the game. I've gotten used to Botcon being a certain way and if it's not going to be that way anymore then I'm probobly not going anymore.
I'm already committed to going this year and have made all these plans but I gotta be honest, it's looking like things are building up to be a big 'ol suck fest with plenty of SUCK. With gas going up at the rate that it is, I don't wanna drive all the way from Tallahassee to Dallas and back again just to have to sit through all of this "panel drama" and reduced market place and item availability. I really feel bad for the people spending more money than me on hotels and airfare. This whole situation seems to be getting out of hand at the last minute. At this point I'm mainly going to meet the people that will be there and for the gathering in general, it'll be nice to put a name and face togetheir for alot of the community members here.

I'm gonna wait and see how the site moderators and heiarchy of Seibertron decide to handle this as a group. I have a feeling that I'm not the only one who is feeling perturbed at this point.

Way to go Hasblow....way to go.



Without going back and checking I believe I may have been that a-hole (my word, not yours) that said that Hasbro had the right to do this and on their time scale and I stand by that remark. It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks, it's a fact. It's perfectly legal and can be upheld in a court of law. They don't have to disclose jack-diddly-squat. HOWEVER...I never said that I or anyone else had to like that fact. Yeah it does suck for those who made plans but let's face it, for all the platitudes given, for all the "nods" to the G1 fans or anyone else, you are all...just...statistics. Each and every one of us is a percentage on a chart at the annual stock-holders meeting and we, as older fans and collectors are not the largest percentage on that chart. At the point where any of you seriously start to think we matter that much, you might want to consider a psychiatric evaluation. The consideration that they do give us is because we are the consumers that are bringing the next generation of consumers into the market so they just throw some of their obscene profits into dangling a tasty piece of cheese in front of the mouse hole to lure us out and hope that we bring our baby mice out with us. That's it! Like I've said before, we don't have to like it but it is what it is and it's only going to get worse so you either roll with it or decide to walk away from the whole thing now, cut your losses and kiss your hobby goodbye forever. Your choice, Hasbro doesn't give a rats-ass either way.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Botch the Crab » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:52 pm

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Uncommon wrote:I would have thought the best way to fight the third-party toys is to actually compete with them.


Quoted for truth!
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby craggy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:34 pm

I think a lot of us have had enough of Hasbro trying to put their cheese in our mouse-holes.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Stryfe Convoy » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:29 pm

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Ok...

Here's something for anyone who knows the legal system to either answer or confirm. Was Botcon advertised to sell anything in the artist's alley? I don't know. Was Botcon advertised to have vendors sell Transformers products at the convention? Yes. Does third party products fall under Transformers products? No. Was Botcon advertised to be a convention where the fans can get together and be fans, and share all that being a fan of Transformers is? I'd like to think so. Here's the kicker. How many fans are going to be there and all happy and grateful with all of these changes in the rules for attending Botcon? Isn't this false advertisement? If not Hasbro themselves, could FunPub face these repercussions? Obviously, there are a lot of people who are upset about this, but could there be more at stake then just the fandom being royally upset?

Also, what can we really do to change it? As many people have already posted, there are no chances of getting refunds. Having the 'entire' fandom show up and start booing and heckling Hasbro and/or FunPub is only gonna make them stop holding the convention. Then what? Dairycon and TFCon are great conventions from what I've read here on the site, but they don't have the resources that Hasbro brings to the table. The exclusives from Dairycon are great, but they won't bring anything like the original Shattered Glass set, or the Games of Deception set.

This is becoming a very sticky situation, and I'm afraid that we might lose more than just the convention, but we might lose all of the news sites we all visit, including Seibertron.com... I'm just putting that out there, because Hasbro can sure try and do that...

This isn't good business on anyone's part...
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Vicalliose » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:19 pm

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I believe certain statistics are based on Hasbro's ENTIRE toy lineup. I don't think we're quite insignificant to Transformers sales specifically. Kids are eclectic little bags of short attention span, the majority of them probably only buying a few Transformers and a hole bunch of other random stuff in between. Where as collectors almost strictly focus on Transformers, and get them in huge amounts, shelves lined with the things.

If the tiniest little financial loss matters to Hasbro, such as 3rd party companies and fan artists which ONLY appeal to collectors, then they are going about this all wrong.

As for this fan art ban nonsense. Call all the purchases "donations" instead of "sales". People donate to fan artists all the time on DA right? Ah no, I'm sure lawyers have something to prevent that as well... :roll:
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Bumblevivisector » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:29 pm

If it was just Hasbro putting their foot down at BotCon, I wouldn't be too concerned about this. But in the aftermath of the SOPA/PIPA debacle, with ACTA still looming worldwide unless the EU shoots it down, and the RIAA getting the U.S. government to force ISPs to spy on their customers supposedly to spot illegal downloads and ultimately deny access to the internet to anyone they accuse of I.P. theft (this will be in place by July if it isn't already, and you won't have much legal recourse), is anyone else worried that this whole decade is going to be defined by waves of lawsuits from media giants over flimsy claims of I.P. violation that ultimately lead to big restrictions on freedom of speech?

I'm sorry if that's straying off topic, but the timing of this has me afraid that it's all connected. Otherwise, I might actually side with Hasbro, but even if they are losing money from I.P. violations, protecting the rights of average citizens falsely accused or facing disproportionately hard penalties for minor infringement is quickly going to become a LOT more important to everyone on this site. Couldn't a good corporate lawyer blur the line between copyright infringement and bad word-of-mouth where online reviews and comments are concerned if it would protect a company's profits?

Hopefully I'm overreacting. If these policies never extend beyond BotCon, then call me Chicken-Little (or was that Henny-Penny?) Just pointing out a slippery slope while we're still on solid ground.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby shin_hibiki » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:38 pm

G1 Legacy wrote:My biggest complaint that I mentioned weeks ago in another thread (Re: 3rd Party Ban) is why for the love of god are they waiting until THIS close to the actual function to implement these stupid-ass new rules AFTER everyone has pre-paid and gotten their financial commitments paid out and all types of other travel "ducks in a row".


This is what is known, in the common parlance, as answering one's own question. ;)
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby alternator77 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:46 pm

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its going to look like chinatown in alot of hotels around dallas next month :lol: :lol:
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby xyl360 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:50 pm

This move makes perfect sense to me.

If they are to be able to have a legal leg to stand on against third party/KO toys, then they must fight ALL IP violations, including usage of their IP in derivative works, such as sculptures, statues, drawings, T-shirts and anything else which might be sold for profit.

If a company wants to sell T-shirts in a store with a TF character on it, they must first purchase the proper licensing/negotiate a deal with Has/Tak to do so. That's the same thing as with bands at concerts. There are often sellers of unlicensed stuff, but it's illegal and they crack down on it if they find it.

That's all Hasbro is doing and are well within their legal rights to do so.

When it was JUST fan made stuff and straight KO's of existing products, it wasn't such a big deal as the lines were clear on who the bad guys were legally in Hasbro's eyes, but now that small companies (who are getting much larger thanks to their big sales, i.e. TFC and FP) are basing their entire business models on using Has/Tak's IP for the creation of derivative works which they sell for profit without any licensing agreement with Has/Tak, Hasbro had to step in and do something, otherwise, under US copyright laws, they lose exclusive rights to their own IP, meaning tomorrow Mattel would legally be able to release an 'Optimus Prime' figure with no legal recourse to be taken by Hasbro.

That's why they have to do this.

It sucks, and I don't like it, but I do understand it. My only hope is that they DO eventually create a true 'elite collectors' type line to cater to us instead of just to the kiddies, but I see such a move being more forthcoming from Takara than I do Hasbro, as their focus is already on adults and not children with the majority of their TF lines.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby alternator77 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:15 pm

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it just dawned on me that those trademarks hasbro just applied for may never see the light of day, what im saying is this could be just another step in their attempts to control their ip
i mean seriously they didnt have a tm on scorponok? talk about sleeping on the job >:oP
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby vectorA3 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:16 pm

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This really that much of a problem H? Not even Megatron would stoop to this level. 2 movies that made over a $1 billion each (at least 2.5 bill between the 3 films) and they're pennypinching fan art over IP?

What's next? Sorry, attendees of all TF cons the rest of the year must pay extra to wear any TF related apparel and pay to even utter the words "transformers, autobot or decepticon" Seriously wtf?!! Terrible

If hasTak would compete with these 3rd party companies and actually put out decent product (Devastators, reflectors, Bruticus etc.) and brand new never before made MP characters -they wouldn't have this problem as bad. They act like they don't have the $, infrastructure and resources to do this. BULL &*(^*(%G S&*T!!!!
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Samsonator » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:53 pm

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This is gonna break into a bit of a rant I apologize...

The convention for the fans is becoming less about the fans with each passing year, it is getting insanely more corporate and it saddens me that I have yet to go to a Botcon, and so, have missed out on the convention back when it was still fun for everyone.
Still for something like this, while it is a sign of the times we, as fans, are having to go through, it is generating a lot of "Ruined Forever" talk that, to me, screams of premature overreaction.

Transformers is and always has been a Hasbro brand, and they have every right to dictate how it is handled at their official convention. Their handling of this situation definitely leaves a bit to be desired, though..

I understand the positions of those who have already paid airfare for the con, have their hotels registered, and whatnot. Having such things announced a month before the Con, dropped on the laps of people who already paid to go, is bullshit to a heretofore unheard of degree, and a terrible move on the parties involved. I feel especially bad for any artists who have already paid their way, and were expecting to recoup some of that cost with commissions and prints of their works and the like. Honestly what the hell is the point of an artist alley at a Transformers convention, if the artist aren't allowed to sell pieces they've done of the characters everyone's there to celebrate? Yeah they can draw them, but nobody can buy that art? That's total crap.

I get that Hasbro's finally starting to take this third party stuff seriously, but there's gotta be a better way to handle it than half-assed schemes that stir up a shitstorm in the fandom like this. Maybe their plan is to get us so pissed that these things are happening, that we turn our backs on the third party companies for bringing us to this stage? I could see that being the case, fighting the third party companies by blaming them for the state of the convention... The only possibly logical reasoning I can think of for this action.

Even with all this going on, I still think that anyone saying this will be the death of the franchise, or the end of the fandom, anyone who wants to boycott Hasbro, or Botcon, are all overreacting and their pressing of the RUINED FOREVER button is definitely premature.

Will I stop buying Transformers? No.
Will I stop buying 3rd party stuff? Also, No.
Will I stop renewing my Club subscription? Again, No.
Will I pass on any reasonable opportunities for me to hit a Botcon in the future? No.
Does this mean I hate the fandom for supporting those who have wronged us in the eyes of so many? Not a chance.

I'm just gonna keep riding it out, and see what happens.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby KenjaminLinus » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:58 pm

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I personally think the banning on art is pretty lame, but it IS Hasbro's right to decide that.

...Just like it was my right to buy Hercules instead of going to Botcon/getting the exclusives.

Seems like I regret the decision less every day, kind of a shame really.

Will I stop buying Transformers? No.
Will I stop buying 3rd party stuff? Also, No.
Will I stop renewing my Club subscription? Again, No.
Will I pass on any reasonable opportunities for me to hit a Botcon in the future? No.

Does this mean I hate the fandom for supporting those who have wronged us in the eyes of so many? Not a chance.

I'm just gonna keep riding it out, and see what happens.

This pretty much sums up how I feel perfectly
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Son of Primus » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:07 pm

This is really is becoming insane. I mean I understand trying to protect your product, but at what costs? It's not like artists are mass producing TF comics for the 'con and people are buying them instead of official products ... it's just a drawing.

As far as third parties, well if you ask me as "IP infringing" as they may or may not be ... Hasbro has missed the boat so many times it's not even funny. We (as a fandom) have said what we want and we have shown we are willing to pay top dollar for it. I LOVE ever third party offering I have bought ... I can not say the same thing about every Hasbro product I have owned. Not to mention, the third parties are filling a need we adult collectors have. It's not like these are taking money away from Hasbro because there is no (real, 6 figure) Classics Devastator, non white Prime repaint of Classics Magnus, Classics Insecticons or Classics Reflector.

Instead of fighting (what will probably be) a losing battle (because Hasbro doesn't own the rights to transforming robot toys and I am fairly sure the third-parties will find a way to produce and sell them ... not to mention if we fans want them, we will find a way to buy them) why doesn't Hasbro offer a third-party licensing program like some other companies do? Make it cost effective for the third-parties to buy into (I don't know, something like 5-10% of sales go to Hasbro this way the cost of third-party figures doesn't go through the roof) and that allows the third-party company to use the Transformers name and call it an "Officially Licensed Adult Collectable." Hasbro gets paid, the third-party gets paid, the toys we WANT actually get made.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Down_Shift » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:08 pm

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Weapon: Rust Ray Gun
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

The hell is the point of having a fan convention? Maybe they'll freak out when people start making their own characters in FOC.

I wonder if this will turn SDCC into a gong-show too?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:10 pm

Motto: "Surf in the Summer, Collect in the Winter."
Weapon: Neptune Sword
I agree with just about everything you said. For the artists, it sucks they can't make any money. On a personal level, it sucks for me if see an awesome drawing, and can't get a print. Lose lose.


Samsonator wrote:
Will I stop buying Transformers?no
No, although there really isn't much for me in the stores right now.

Samsonator wrote:Will I stop buying 3rd party stuff? Also, No.


Not a laughable chance in hell.

Samsonator wrote:Will I stop renewing my Club subscription? Again, No.


I will not give anymore money to these irresponsible clowns. I will save a ton by buying from ebay instead of playing the cost of attending Botcon and the $42 for a "club". Not to mention the added peace of mind.

Samsonator wrote:Will I pass on any reasonable opportunities for me to hit a Botcon in the future? No.


Airfare+ Hotel+ Primus+ add-ons= $3000.00 vs $800.00 for all the toys on ebay. Pass.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Motto: "Surf in the Summer, Collect in the Winter."
Weapon: Neptune Sword
And just as a side note, how much you wanna bet Has/Tak doesn't have permission for the UNDENIABLE Mcdowell Douglas F-15 they are using for MP-o3, MP-03G, MP-o6, MP-o7, MP-11, MP-11s, and the American versions.


Hypocrites.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby KenjaminLinus » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:32 pm

Motto: ""...more than you need a FRIEND??" - Tracks"
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And just as a side note, how much you wanna bet Has/Tak doesn't have permission for the UNDENIABLE Mcdowell Douglas F-15 they are using for MP-o3, MP-03G, MP-o6, MP-o7, MP-11, MP-11s, and the American versions.


Hypocrites.


Ha! That is hilariously true, not to mention the countless other like-licensed vehicles used over the years. Hypocrites indeed.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby CommanderHazar » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:39 pm

I don't find this as hard to believe or understand as some other here seem to. In fact, I think it makes perfect sense. If Hasbro wants to have any chance at all of fighting the third-party companies like Fansproject and TFC Toys, where the infringement issue is not clear cut (no exact copies of designs, no use of trademarked terms, etc...) they have to crack down against the blatant infringement. As someone else pointed out, US trademark law is a use it and defend it or lose it deal.

The timing of the move may be bad for the fans, but I can also see the logic behind it. If it's too late to back out and get a refund, people either have to go and get their money's worth out of what they spent, and recoup what they can under the new rules, or lose the investment and get nothing for it. Hasbro wins either way as they still get their money with no refunds.

I'm only surprised they haven't done this sooner.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Down_Shift » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:46 pm

Motto: "Everyone has a bad hobby or a bad habit and I'd rather have a bad hobby over a bad habit."
Weapon: Rust Ray Gun
alternator77 wrote:it just dawned on me that those trademarks hasbro just applied for may never see the light of day, what im saying is this could be just another step in their attempts to control their ip
i mean seriously they didnt have a tm on scorponok? talk about sleeping on the job >:oP


They still have it, they are just renewing the trademarks.
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