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Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon (but now it's not!)

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Bumblevivisector » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:29 pm

If it was just Hasbro putting their foot down at BotCon, I wouldn't be too concerned about this. But in the aftermath of the SOPA/PIPA debacle, with ACTA still looming worldwide unless the EU shoots it down, and the RIAA getting the U.S. government to force ISPs to spy on their customers supposedly to spot illegal downloads and ultimately deny access to the internet to anyone they accuse of I.P. theft (this will be in place by July if it isn't already, and you won't have much legal recourse), is anyone else worried that this whole decade is going to be defined by waves of lawsuits from media giants over flimsy claims of I.P. violation that ultimately lead to big restrictions on freedom of speech?

I'm sorry if that's straying off topic, but the timing of this has me afraid that it's all connected. Otherwise, I might actually side with Hasbro, but even if they are losing money from I.P. violations, protecting the rights of average citizens falsely accused or facing disproportionately hard penalties for minor infringement is quickly going to become a LOT more important to everyone on this site. Couldn't a good corporate lawyer blur the line between copyright infringement and bad word-of-mouth where online reviews and comments are concerned if it would protect a company's profits?

Hopefully I'm overreacting. If these policies never extend beyond BotCon, then call me Chicken-Little (or was that Henny-Penny?) Just pointing out a slippery slope while we're still on solid ground.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby shin_hibiki » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:38 pm

G1 Legacy wrote:My biggest complaint that I mentioned weeks ago in another thread (Re: 3rd Party Ban) is why for the love of god are they waiting until THIS close to the actual function to implement these stupid-ass new rules AFTER everyone has pre-paid and gotten their financial commitments paid out and all types of other travel "ducks in a row".


This is what is known, in the common parlance, as answering one's own question. ;)
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby alternator77 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:46 pm

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its going to look like chinatown in alot of hotels around dallas next month :lol: :lol:
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby xyl360 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:50 pm

This move makes perfect sense to me.

If they are to be able to have a legal leg to stand on against third party/KO toys, then they must fight ALL IP violations, including usage of their IP in derivative works, such as sculptures, statues, drawings, T-shirts and anything else which might be sold for profit.

If a company wants to sell T-shirts in a store with a TF character on it, they must first purchase the proper licensing/negotiate a deal with Has/Tak to do so. That's the same thing as with bands at concerts. There are often sellers of unlicensed stuff, but it's illegal and they crack down on it if they find it.

That's all Hasbro is doing and are well within their legal rights to do so.

When it was JUST fan made stuff and straight KO's of existing products, it wasn't such a big deal as the lines were clear on who the bad guys were legally in Hasbro's eyes, but now that small companies (who are getting much larger thanks to their big sales, i.e. TFC and FP) are basing their entire business models on using Has/Tak's IP for the creation of derivative works which they sell for profit without any licensing agreement with Has/Tak, Hasbro had to step in and do something, otherwise, under US copyright laws, they lose exclusive rights to their own IP, meaning tomorrow Mattel would legally be able to release an 'Optimus Prime' figure with no legal recourse to be taken by Hasbro.

That's why they have to do this.

It sucks, and I don't like it, but I do understand it. My only hope is that they DO eventually create a true 'elite collectors' type line to cater to us instead of just to the kiddies, but I see such a move being more forthcoming from Takara than I do Hasbro, as their focus is already on adults and not children with the majority of their TF lines.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby alternator77 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:15 pm

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it just dawned on me that those trademarks hasbro just applied for may never see the light of day, what im saying is this could be just another step in their attempts to control their ip
i mean seriously they didnt have a tm on scorponok? talk about sleeping on the job >:oP
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby vectorA3 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:16 pm

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This really that much of a problem H? Not even Megatron would stoop to this level. 2 movies that made over a $1 billion each (at least 2.5 bill between the 3 films) and they're pennypinching fan art over IP?

What's next? Sorry, attendees of all TF cons the rest of the year must pay extra to wear any TF related apparel and pay to even utter the words "transformers, autobot or decepticon" Seriously wtf?!! Terrible

If hasTak would compete with these 3rd party companies and actually put out decent product (Devastators, reflectors, Bruticus etc.) and brand new never before made MP characters -they wouldn't have this problem as bad. They act like they don't have the $, infrastructure and resources to do this. BULL &*(^*(%G S&*T!!!!
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Samsonator » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:53 pm

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This is gonna break into a bit of a rant I apologize...

The convention for the fans is becoming less about the fans with each passing year, it is getting insanely more corporate and it saddens me that I have yet to go to a Botcon, and so, have missed out on the convention back when it was still fun for everyone.
Still for something like this, while it is a sign of the times we, as fans, are having to go through, it is generating a lot of "Ruined Forever" talk that, to me, screams of premature overreaction.

Transformers is and always has been a Hasbro brand, and they have every right to dictate how it is handled at their official convention. Their handling of this situation definitely leaves a bit to be desired, though..

I understand the positions of those who have already paid airfare for the con, have their hotels registered, and whatnot. Having such things announced a month before the Con, dropped on the laps of people who already paid to go, is bullshit to a heretofore unheard of degree, and a terrible move on the parties involved. I feel especially bad for any artists who have already paid their way, and were expecting to recoup some of that cost with commissions and prints of their works and the like. Honestly what the hell is the point of an artist alley at a Transformers convention, if the artist aren't allowed to sell pieces they've done of the characters everyone's there to celebrate? Yeah they can draw them, but nobody can buy that art? That's total crap.

I get that Hasbro's finally starting to take this third party stuff seriously, but there's gotta be a better way to handle it than half-assed schemes that stir up a shitstorm in the fandom like this. Maybe their plan is to get us so pissed that these things are happening, that we turn our backs on the third party companies for bringing us to this stage? I could see that being the case, fighting the third party companies by blaming them for the state of the convention... The only possibly logical reasoning I can think of for this action.

Even with all this going on, I still think that anyone saying this will be the death of the franchise, or the end of the fandom, anyone who wants to boycott Hasbro, or Botcon, are all overreacting and their pressing of the RUINED FOREVER button is definitely premature.

Will I stop buying Transformers? No.
Will I stop buying 3rd party stuff? Also, No.
Will I stop renewing my Club subscription? Again, No.
Will I pass on any reasonable opportunities for me to hit a Botcon in the future? No.
Does this mean I hate the fandom for supporting those who have wronged us in the eyes of so many? Not a chance.

I'm just gonna keep riding it out, and see what happens.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby 1111111222233333 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:58 pm

Motto: ""...more than you need a FRIEND??" - Tracks"
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I personally think the banning on art is pretty lame, but it IS Hasbro's right to decide that.

...Just like it was my right to buy Hercules instead of going to Botcon/getting the exclusives.

Seems like I regret the decision less every day, kind of a shame really.

Will I stop buying Transformers? No.
Will I stop buying 3rd party stuff? Also, No.
Will I stop renewing my Club subscription? Again, No.
Will I pass on any reasonable opportunities for me to hit a Botcon in the future? No.

Does this mean I hate the fandom for supporting those who have wronged us in the eyes of so many? Not a chance.

I'm just gonna keep riding it out, and see what happens.

This pretty much sums up how I feel perfectly
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Son of Primus » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:07 pm

This is really is becoming insane. I mean I understand trying to protect your product, but at what costs? It's not like artists are mass producing TF comics for the 'con and people are buying them instead of official products ... it's just a drawing.

As far as third parties, well if you ask me as "IP infringing" as they may or may not be ... Hasbro has missed the boat so many times it's not even funny. We (as a fandom) have said what we want and we have shown we are willing to pay top dollar for it. I LOVE ever third party offering I have bought ... I can not say the same thing about every Hasbro product I have owned. Not to mention, the third parties are filling a need we adult collectors have. It's not like these are taking money away from Hasbro because there is no (real, 6 figure) Classics Devastator, non white Prime repaint of Classics Magnus, Classics Insecticons or Classics Reflector.

Instead of fighting (what will probably be) a losing battle (because Hasbro doesn't own the rights to transforming robot toys and I am fairly sure the third-parties will find a way to produce and sell them ... not to mention if we fans want them, we will find a way to buy them) why doesn't Hasbro offer a third-party licensing program like some other companies do? Make it cost effective for the third-parties to buy into (I don't know, something like 5-10% of sales go to Hasbro this way the cost of third-party figures doesn't go through the roof) and that allows the third-party company to use the Transformers name and call it an "Officially Licensed Adult Collectable." Hasbro gets paid, the third-party gets paid, the toys we WANT actually get made.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Down_Shift » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:08 pm

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

The hell is the point of having a fan convention? Maybe they'll freak out when people start making their own characters in FOC.

I wonder if this will turn SDCC into a gong-show too?
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:10 pm

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I agree with just about everything you said. For the artists, it sucks they can't make any money. On a personal level, it sucks for me if see an awesome drawing, and can't get a print. Lose lose.


Samsonator wrote:
Will I stop buying Transformers?no
No, although there really isn't much for me in the stores right now.

Samsonator wrote:Will I stop buying 3rd party stuff? Also, No.


Not a laughable chance in hell.

Samsonator wrote:Will I stop renewing my Club subscription? Again, No.


I will not give anymore money to these irresponsible clowns. I will save a ton by buying from ebay instead of playing the cost of attending Botcon and the $42 for a "club". Not to mention the added peace of mind.

Samsonator wrote:Will I pass on any reasonable opportunities for me to hit a Botcon in the future? No.


Airfare+ Hotel+ Primus+ add-ons= $3000.00 vs $800.00 for all the toys on ebay. Pass.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Motto: "Surf in the Summer, Collect in the Winter."
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And just as a side note, how much you wanna bet Has/Tak doesn't have permission for the UNDENIABLE Mcdowell Douglas F-15 they are using for MP-o3, MP-03G, MP-o6, MP-o7, MP-11, MP-11s, and the American versions.


Hypocrites.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby 1111111222233333 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:32 pm

Motto: ""...more than you need a FRIEND??" - Tracks"
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And just as a side note, how much you wanna bet Has/Tak doesn't have permission for the UNDENIABLE Mcdowell Douglas F-15 they are using for MP-o3, MP-03G, MP-o6, MP-o7, MP-11, MP-11s, and the American versions.


Hypocrites.


Ha! That is hilariously true, not to mention the countless other like-licensed vehicles used over the years. Hypocrites indeed.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby CommanderHazar » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:39 pm

I don't find this as hard to believe or understand as some other here seem to. In fact, I think it makes perfect sense. If Hasbro wants to have any chance at all of fighting the third-party companies like Fansproject and TFC Toys, where the infringement issue is not clear cut (no exact copies of designs, no use of trademarked terms, etc...) they have to crack down against the blatant infringement. As someone else pointed out, US trademark law is a use it and defend it or lose it deal.

The timing of the move may be bad for the fans, but I can also see the logic behind it. If it's too late to back out and get a refund, people either have to go and get their money's worth out of what they spent, and recoup what they can under the new rules, or lose the investment and get nothing for it. Hasbro wins either way as they still get their money with no refunds.

I'm only surprised they haven't done this sooner.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Down_Shift » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:46 pm

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alternator77 wrote:it just dawned on me that those trademarks hasbro just applied for may never see the light of day, what im saying is this could be just another step in their attempts to control their ip
i mean seriously they didnt have a tm on scorponok? talk about sleeping on the job >:oP


They still have it, they are just renewing the trademarks.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Flashwave » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:38 pm

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KenjaminLinus wrote:
And just as a side note, how much you wanna bet Has/Tak doesn't have permission for the UNDENIABLE Mcdowell Douglas F-15 they are using for MP-o3, MP-03G, MP-o6, MP-o7, MP-11, MP-11s, and the American versions.


Hypocrites.


Ha! That is hilariously true, not to mention the countless other like-licensed vehicles used over the years. Hypocrites indeed.


You wanna bet?

RID Side Burn, repaint came with this lovely emb;em from Dodge.

Binaltech/Alternators. Don't need to say anything more on that one.

The Movie figs: Admittedly, the auto companies are probably paying Hasbro on this onefor the advertising, but yiou can darn well guarentee there's a license in there somewhere.

About the only ones you can argue are the G1 rereleases, anymore. I don't know if Hastak went after licenses or if they've been hit with them later, or if the toys have been deemed "Not scale enough" to make a valid case on, even if it is based on an acgtual car. (See Cyb. Crosswise. he's based on a Citroen soemthing or other, but it's not enough to say he is one.) Hotwheels, believe it or not, does this sometimes too.

I'm with a fairly slight majority here. I'm not going to boycott anyone, I'll still join the club as Credit card fraud happens to anybody, and with as long as it took for them to hit my card, I don't know if it came from funpub or Paypal, who was also hit recently iirc.

I do agree, this is kinda a dumb move to annoucne so late, but I understand the IP rights. I cannot get behind this argument that it's to get OUT of the toy business though, because all of this is to SELL TOYS. What good are IP rights if no one is using them, hmm?

What Hasbro needs to do, when all this is over and their lawyers are fat and happy again, is put out a new contract with the artists that's a Convention-only license at a minimum, an X% of sales clause. It'll still drive away artists, as it ill make the tables that much more expensive, but it's the only logical compromise I see.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby FracturedKoi » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:07 pm

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JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
FracturedKoi wrote:I can understand wanting to protect your property, IP, or whatnot, but to restrict fans enjoyment, creativity, enthusiasm, and fun at a convention for the fans is going a bit too far.


You're not totally getting it. It's not the fan art itself that's banned, it's selling it. Giving it away should be perfectly fine, as long as the artist don't earn money from Hasbro's IP without a license. That includes paid commissions.


I meant to elaborate more on my thoughts earlier, but I was running short on time. I'd have added a thought about how George Lucas treats his fans. Sure, he wantonly changes his films on a whim adding in superfluous amounts of the word "NO!" and blinking Ewoks...but he encourages fans to participate in groups like the 501...which consists of nothing but guys making and selling armor that's intended to be nearly exact replicas of what you're seen on screen.

As to rather the selling of these is frowned upon at Star Wars cons, I really can't say, but at least he acknowledges and encourages those of us that troop. (I'm not 501, but I do tend to show up at places as Vader of Boba Fett xD)

And I do "get" it, Jelz, I do. As I said, I understand wanting to protect your legally trademarked property. It just seems to me that there would've been a better way of handling the matter is all.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby FracturedKoi » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:15 pm

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Ooh...I just thought of an amusing anecdote....

What if, and I hope you're seated people, but what if...

Someone had a booth selling nothing but old 80's GoBots =|
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Autobot032 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:38 pm

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I wonder if Hasbro's flat out lying to us.

What if toy sales aren't doing as well as they stated? What if it's true that they're shifting to multimedia instead of toys?

More and more...I'm seeing the possibility where we won't see TFs any more. They'll make their money where and when they can and then move onto the next bigger better thing. Can't keep the toys going if they're not selling. We think they are, but what if they aren't?

I have a feeling we're seeing Hasbro jumping off of a sinking ship like a rat would.

I could be wrong, but something's not right here.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby El Duque » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:25 am

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Flashwave wrote:You wanna bet?

RID Side Burn, repaint came with this lovely emb;em from Dodge.


Funny you should bring him up, because if I remember correctly this is one of the few times Hasbro actually got busted on one of the borrowed car designs. When Hasbro released the RID line domestically Dodge noticed and leaned on them for a licensing deal until they gave in.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Trikeboy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:08 am

Personally, I think this is going to spell the end of Botcon as we know it. How many people will still feel the pain that Hasbro is pushing onto dealers and fans in a years time. The fact that they are changing what is allowed when many people can no longer cancel tickets will leave a bitter taste in their mouths. So many questions of Botcon 2013 will probably not be answered until after the tickets are on sale. Also, as we have seen this year, Hasbro can and probably will change things too near the event for people to decide not to go.

I used to want to go to Botcon but now I really don't, the fun just feels taken out of it by corporate bigwigs. I'll stick to Auto Assembly, such a fun convention with like minded people. No politics there, just a bunch of people getting together to celebrate our interests.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Autobot032 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:45 am

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I think we'll see lawsuits from the fans, over this. I'm sure they'll lose, but at least it'll make a notable case for all to see. Even show Hasbro that we are willing to fight back.

You might ask why would anyone file? Well, people bought their tickets and services on a good faith agreement. They had good reason to have faith in both Fun Publications and Hasbro to deliver an up to par experience this year, with previous years.

For years, 3rd party groups and resellers pushed product and showcased upcoming items.
For years, fans could sell their artwork with no problem. Artistic ability was encouraged, actually.

Now...threats of your wares being confiscated, reporting to the authorities, physical removal from the premises, plus now you're not allowed to showcase your artistic talent, even though they give you a venue to do so.

And all of this comes AFTER you bought and paid, in full, your tickets, accommodations, various fees, etc...all on a promise you'd be given the same experience this year, had in prior years.

To me, that seems shady and dishonest. It reeks of illegality, but most likely isn't actionable. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have someone stand up and fight back. In a twist of fate, you might just run into a judge who would see the plight of the fans and say they're owed their lost money back, because they were given promises and expectations in lieu of money. And it was never delivered.

Like I said, I'm sure it'd be laughed out of a court room, but you never know unless you try.

I'd be trying my best to find out how to get my money back.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:55 am

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Man, I'm so glad I listened to instinct and stayed away from BotCon this year. If it wasn't for Furman and Latta's induction, this BotCon would be a total and utter bomb all around. Hasbro can suck it.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby AutobotMR2 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:33 am

Motto: "That sound you hear is the roar of a Mach 5 engine speeding your way!"
Weapon: Double-Barreled, Armor-Piercing Particle Beam Cann...
Sadly as you pointed out Autobot032, I highly doubt if anyone tries to take legal action agianst Hasbro for this...nothing will come of it. They more than likely put some form of fine print in the agreement about how prices are non-refundable. Thank christ I'm not going, because the Hasbro panel would end with me getting thrown out for punching a Hasbro and Fun Pub rep right in the middle of the face....cursed Hasbro Nazis!
Looking to acquire a complete set of the G1 Insecticons (Bombshell, Kickback, and Shrapnel). They dont have to be MISB, have the cards. The TRU re-issues are fine too. The only person that can verify my buying status is CounterPunch as he is the only person I have purchased from.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Rated X » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:51 am

Motto: ""Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.""
Weapon: Saw-Edged Pincer
Hasbro is a piece of s**t and I have lost all respect for them. They are the scum of the earth.
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Check out my Customs:

Classics Pounce and Wingspan
classics-pounce-and-wingspan-t95811.php

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Collection photos will be updated soon at this link :
http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/rated-x-s-collection-t55699.php
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