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Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon (but now it's not!)

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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Flashwave » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:38 pm

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KenjaminLinus wrote:
And just as a side note, how much you wanna bet Has/Tak doesn't have permission for the UNDENIABLE Mcdowell Douglas F-15 they are using for MP-o3, MP-03G, MP-o6, MP-o7, MP-11, MP-11s, and the American versions.


Hypocrites.


Ha! That is hilariously true, not to mention the countless other like-licensed vehicles used over the years. Hypocrites indeed.


You wanna bet?

RID Side Burn, repaint came with this lovely emb;em from Dodge.

Binaltech/Alternators. Don't need to say anything more on that one.

The Movie figs: Admittedly, the auto companies are probably paying Hasbro on this onefor the advertising, but yiou can darn well guarentee there's a license in there somewhere.

About the only ones you can argue are the G1 rereleases, anymore. I don't know if Hastak went after licenses or if they've been hit with them later, or if the toys have been deemed "Not scale enough" to make a valid case on, even if it is based on an acgtual car. (See Cyb. Crosswise. he's based on a Citroen soemthing or other, but it's not enough to say he is one.) Hotwheels, believe it or not, does this sometimes too.

I'm with a fairly slight majority here. I'm not going to boycott anyone, I'll still join the club as Credit card fraud happens to anybody, and with as long as it took for them to hit my card, I don't know if it came from funpub or Paypal, who was also hit recently iirc.

I do agree, this is kinda a dumb move to annoucne so late, but I understand the IP rights. I cannot get behind this argument that it's to get OUT of the toy business though, because all of this is to SELL TOYS. What good are IP rights if no one is using them, hmm?

What Hasbro needs to do, when all this is over and their lawyers are fat and happy again, is put out a new contract with the artists that's a Convention-only license at a minimum, an X% of sales clause. It'll still drive away artists, as it ill make the tables that much more expensive, but it's the only logical compromise I see.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby FracturedKoi » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:07 pm

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JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
FracturedKoi wrote:I can understand wanting to protect your property, IP, or whatnot, but to restrict fans enjoyment, creativity, enthusiasm, and fun at a convention for the fans is going a bit too far.


You're not totally getting it. It's not the fan art itself that's banned, it's selling it. Giving it away should be perfectly fine, as long as the artist don't earn money from Hasbro's IP without a license. That includes paid commissions.


I meant to elaborate more on my thoughts earlier, but I was running short on time. I'd have added a thought about how George Lucas treats his fans. Sure, he wantonly changes his films on a whim adding in superfluous amounts of the word "NO!" and blinking Ewoks...but he encourages fans to participate in groups like the 501...which consists of nothing but guys making and selling armor that's intended to be nearly exact replicas of what you're seen on screen.

As to rather the selling of these is frowned upon at Star Wars cons, I really can't say, but at least he acknowledges and encourages those of us that troop. (I'm not 501, but I do tend to show up at places as Vader of Boba Fett xD)

And I do "get" it, Jelz, I do. As I said, I understand wanting to protect your legally trademarked property. It just seems to me that there would've been a better way of handling the matter is all.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby FracturedKoi » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:15 pm

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Ooh...I just thought of an amusing anecdote....

What if, and I hope you're seated people, but what if...

Someone had a booth selling nothing but old 80's GoBots =|
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Autobot032 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:38 pm

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I wonder if Hasbro's flat out lying to us.

What if toy sales aren't doing as well as they stated? What if it's true that they're shifting to multimedia instead of toys?

More and more...I'm seeing the possibility where we won't see TFs any more. They'll make their money where and when they can and then move onto the next bigger better thing. Can't keep the toys going if they're not selling. We think they are, but what if they aren't?

I have a feeling we're seeing Hasbro jumping off of a sinking ship like a rat would.

I could be wrong, but something's not right here.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby El Duque » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:25 am

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Flashwave wrote:You wanna bet?

RID Side Burn, repaint came with this lovely emb;em from Dodge.


Funny you should bring him up, because if I remember correctly this is one of the few times Hasbro actually got busted on one of the borrowed car designs. When Hasbro released the RID line domestically Dodge noticed and leaned on them for a licensing deal until they gave in.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Trikeboy » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:08 am

Personally, I think this is going to spell the end of Botcon as we know it. How many people will still feel the pain that Hasbro is pushing onto dealers and fans in a years time. The fact that they are changing what is allowed when many people can no longer cancel tickets will leave a bitter taste in their mouths. So many questions of Botcon 2013 will probably not be answered until after the tickets are on sale. Also, as we have seen this year, Hasbro can and probably will change things too near the event for people to decide not to go.

I used to want to go to Botcon but now I really don't, the fun just feels taken out of it by corporate bigwigs. I'll stick to Auto Assembly, such a fun convention with like minded people. No politics there, just a bunch of people getting together to celebrate our interests.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Autobot032 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:45 am

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I think we'll see lawsuits from the fans, over this. I'm sure they'll lose, but at least it'll make a notable case for all to see. Even show Hasbro that we are willing to fight back.

You might ask why would anyone file? Well, people bought their tickets and services on a good faith agreement. They had good reason to have faith in both Fun Publications and Hasbro to deliver an up to par experience this year, with previous years.

For years, 3rd party groups and resellers pushed product and showcased upcoming items.
For years, fans could sell their artwork with no problem. Artistic ability was encouraged, actually.

Now...threats of your wares being confiscated, reporting to the authorities, physical removal from the premises, plus now you're not allowed to showcase your artistic talent, even though they give you a venue to do so.

And all of this comes AFTER you bought and paid, in full, your tickets, accommodations, various fees, etc...all on a promise you'd be given the same experience this year, had in prior years.

To me, that seems shady and dishonest. It reeks of illegality, but most likely isn't actionable. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have someone stand up and fight back. In a twist of fate, you might just run into a judge who would see the plight of the fans and say they're owed their lost money back, because they were given promises and expectations in lieu of money. And it was never delivered.

Like I said, I'm sure it'd be laughed out of a court room, but you never know unless you try.

I'd be trying my best to find out how to get my money back.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:55 am

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Man, I'm so glad I listened to instinct and stayed away from BotCon this year. If it wasn't for Furman and Latta's induction, this BotCon would be a total and utter bomb all around. Hasbro can suck it.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby AutobotMR2 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:33 am

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Sadly as you pointed out Autobot032, I highly doubt if anyone tries to take legal action agianst Hasbro for this...nothing will come of it. They more than likely put some form of fine print in the agreement about how prices are non-refundable. Thank christ I'm not going, because the Hasbro panel would end with me getting thrown out for punching a Hasbro and Fun Pub rep right in the middle of the face....cursed Hasbro Nazis!
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Rated X » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:51 am

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Hasbro is a piece of s**t and I have lost all respect for them. They are the scum of the earth.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:06 am

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Alright, after calming down (cause the 3.P. and I.P. issues gets me wound up), getting a good night sleep, and a powerful cup of coffee this morning, I feel much better about this thing. >:oP Here's how I feel this morning:

BOTCON IS GOING TO BE THE ABSOLUTE BEST BOTCON EVER!!! :KREMZEEK: :KREMZEEK:

Quite a stark difference from yesterday I know, BUT, how much fun was every "last" day of school? huh? Think about it? Never gonna see these people again, to hell with the "club", people, this year is going be ANARCHY! Woo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :michaelbay:

But I've heard it mentioned, this isn't the end of Fan art, or 3rd party. Just the end of it at one SEVERALLY overpriced convention.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Che » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:08 am

FracturedKoi wrote:Ooh...I just thought of an amusing anecdote....
What if, and I hope you're seated people, but what if...
Someone had a booth selling nothing but old 80's GoBots =|

I would love it, I miss those simple little guys =}
3rd party companies, bring some GoBots back! XD

I really don't care that much with what's going to happen with Botcon, Hasbro can do whatever they want with it, although is really bad that these rules are being established or made public just now that everyone have already planned their trips, but would they push harder? Close sites? Close webstores? All these only to keep being "a toy company for kids which sells best buddies Optimus and Bumblebee in multiple colors and shapes"? I only hope Hasbro doesn't become something like RIAA... Less money for lawyers, more money for designers and engineers, that's what I have to say!
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Court Jester » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:05 am

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby YoungPrime » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:43 am

At this rate all the benders would be better off selling they the products outside the damn convention.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby freetouch » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:48 am

You know, a lot of this has to do with John "jin saotome" Mallamas. He's been pushing for an end to 3rd party toys for a while now, under the guise to "help hasbro" all while he is still making custom figures for sale.

He is literally biting the hand the feeds him now, and as a result of his "help" hasbro is turning botcon into a shell. I'm sorry for everyone who is going to this botcon, and I hope its not the last, but every other con is starting to look better and better.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:06 am

I wonder how Hasbro will defend itself on this. Not on banning 3rd party stuff or KOs (I think we all saw that coming), but on fan art. It's a real dick move on the artists who must have already made plans to sell there.

Gotta wonder what made Hasbro decide to go bananas on this all of a sudden. I tend to think it was the high quality KOs of stuff like the Dinocassettes and the Headmaster set that finally did it for them. I'm not their biggest fan, but the shutdown of KOToys seems like the first salvo against the 3rd party market. Which, apparently, includes fan art.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby JelZe GoldRabbit » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:23 am

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Gauntlet101010 wrote:I wonder how Hasbro will defend itself on this. Not on banning 3rd party stuff or KOs (I think we all saw that coming), but on fan art. It's a real dick move on the artists who must have already made plans to sell there.

Gotta wonder what made Hasbro decide to go bananas on this all of a sudden. I tend to think it was the high quality KOs of stuff like the Dinocassettes and the Headmaster set that finally did it for them. I'm not their biggest fan, but the shutdown of KOToys seems like the first salvo against the 3rd party market. Which, apparently, includes fan art.


In a sense, commercial art is included in the whole legal picture.

Think of it this way. We all know the bootleg and KO principle, meaning trying to earn money by using designs of other companies without permission. We see and acknowledge it with toys, yet we don't when it comes to art, even if the artists use Hasbro's designs for profit. I can only assume this is because we recognise the artists as fans themselves, and not as ordinary thieves like the KO companies are.

To Hasbro it doesn't seem to matter. Eye for an eye, tooth for
a tooth. If non-licensed (and non-Hasbro for that matter) toys are to be banned from BotCon, it wouldn't make sense legally to still allow unlicensed art to be sold no matter who made it, would it?

Mind you, I'm not defending Hasbro's action in any way, just trying to provide a few points of insight from my point of view. Take it as you wish.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:46 am

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:I wonder how Hasbro will defend itself on this. Not on banning 3rd party stuff or KOs (I think we all saw that coming), but on fan art. It's a real dick move on the artists who must have already made plans to sell there.

Gotta wonder what made Hasbro decide to go bananas on this all of a sudden. I tend to think it was the high quality KOs of stuff like the Dinocassettes and the Headmaster set that finally did it for them. I'm not their biggest fan, but the shutdown of KOToys seems like the first salvo against the 3rd party market. Which, apparently, includes fan art.


In a sense, commercial art is included in the whole legal picture.

Think of it this way. We all know the bootleg and KO principle, meaning trying to earn money by using designs of other companies without permission. We see and acknowledge it with toys, yet we don't when it comes to art, even if the artists use Hasbro's designs for profit. I can only assume this is because we recognise the artists as fans themselves, and not as ordinary thieves like the KO companies are.

To Hasbro it doesn't seem to matter. Eye for an eye, tooth for
a tooth. If non-licensed (and non-Hasbro for that matter) toys are to be banned from BotCon, it wouldn't make sense legally to still allow unlicensed art to be sold no matter who made it, would it?

Mind you, I'm not defending Hasbro's action in any way, just trying to provide a few points of insight from my point of view. Take it as you wish.

That's probably how it is for them, and it's probably what they intended to say when they banned non-Hasbro TF stuff from Botcon. IMHO, they probably intended to ban fan art from Botcon at that time too, but just neglected to mention it specifically thinking people would get it.

But it's one thing to guess at what's probably going on in their minds as far as legality is concerned and another to get an explanation on why they sought out this PR nightmare that's happening. Stopping vendors from selling non-Hasbro TF toys ... I get that. I don't think that needs any explanation. But stopping Joe TF fan from selling at artist's alley ... where you go to BUY FAN ART ... as a fan I feel they should explain how they justify this morally, as opposed to legally. If they feel they were pushed into this situation due to the emergence of whatever new 3rd party product or KO, fine .... but I'd like to hear that from their lips.

I'm not one of those guys who thinks Hasbro doesn't care about it's fans either. So I'd be interested on WTF is going on in their heads on this.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby alternator77 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:31 pm

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why do i have the feeling ebay is next?
i mean whats to stop them from contacting ebay and saying "yeah you know that custom bruticus/menasor/animated omega supreme thats our ip and these people arent allowed to sell it.
any custon repaint could be removed for sure. >:oP
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:38 pm

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alternator77 wrote:why do i have the feeling ebay is next?
i mean whats to stop them from contacting ebay and saying "yeah you know that custom bruticus/menasor/animated omega supreme thats our ip and these people arent allowed to sell it.
any custon repaint could be removed for sure. >:oP



If that day comes, I will sell my entire collection, piece by piece like a vicious scalper, wash my hands of this hobby and put a down payment on a house.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:54 pm

I think KOs would be targeted before 3rd party stuff and fan art. They tried to get KOs before, and they're harder to find now, but if you know what to look for you can still find them.

Hasbro owns Botcon and can coarse online stores (by not supplying them), but ebay is one, huge, garage sale. I don't know if they can really do anything about that.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby JelZe GoldRabbit » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:23 pm

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Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think KOs would be targeted before 3rd party stuff and fan art. They tried to get KOs before, and they're harder to find now, but if you know what to look for you can still find them.

Hasbro owns Botcon and can coarse online stores (by not supplying them), but ebay is one, huge, garage sale. I don't know if they can really do anything about that.


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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby kirbenvost » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:30 pm

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Yeah, they've already cracked down on KOs on eBay, all they have to do is go to eBay themselves, or have some guy trolling all day, reporting 'unauthorized' auctions. There are still loopholes that can be found, but it's harder now than before.

I still think 3rd Party stuff will always find a way though. Hasbro really has no power to shut down some small operation in China, and every time they take down a website they can just put another up. Even if they threaten the big retailers and force them to take down all 3rd Party products, the manufacturers will start up their own shops.

What's really dying here is the fun of the hobby, when Hasbro becomes the bad guy, more interested in protecting their property than actually producing quality product.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby GetRightRobot » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:32 pm

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kirbenvost wrote:Yeah, they've already cracked down on KOs on eBay, all they have to do is go to eBay themselves, or have some guy trolling all day, reporting 'unauthorized' auctions. There are still loopholes that can be found, but it's harder now than before.

I still think 3rd Party stuff will always find a way though. Hasbro really has no power to shut down some small operation in China, and every time they take down a website they can just put another up. Even if they threaten the big retailers and force them to take down all 3rd Party products, the manufacturers will start up their own shops.

What's really dying here is the fun of the hobby, when Hasbro becomes the bad guy, more interested in protecting their property than actually producing quality product.



Everything you just said. igear.shop is a fine example. Fun killers.
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Re: Fan Art Sales now being banned at Botcon.

Postby Gauntlet101010 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:47 pm

Transformer KOs can still easily be found on ebay. Granted you won't find the ones you want by searching for "Transformers KO" anymore (although you still do get results), but they are there. I can't really agree that they've continued to crack down on them when I was just now looking at KOs of the Seekers and Botcon Breakdown.

And MP Megs being banned "at one point" is just that .... being banned "at one point".

I guess we'll see what happens, but there seems to be a lot of holes in trying to ban stuff from ebay.
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