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Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

First of all, Spiderman is Spiderman. Prime has changed appearance dozens of times (and had various alt forms). The success of TF is that everything changes to keep it interesting - that is not the success of Spiderman. Also, Spiderman is primarily a literary figure, and TFs are primarily toys. That argument is weak.

Secondly, even fans with high standards, as you say, can enjoy the movie, as Ryan and a few other legacy types have already made clear. In fact, anyone can enjoy the movie - some just refuse to... the same type that seem to think they alone are the "real fans" which is laughable.

A prime example would be the 3-4 guys from Ain't It Cool News forums that joined here around midnight Aug 30 2006 specifically to start a fight with Don Murphy, and then stayed on to complain about anything and everything related to the movie.

What were there names... Phategod, Horseflesh and Riotflea I believe.

Yeah.

As for Riotflea's comments. Blockbuster movies are about money. Take home is what makes a movie franchise ultimately successful - not reviews or fanboys. There is going to be a TF movie because Dreamworks knows it will make a ton of cash, not because they think it will win Best Picture. Godzilla98 was still the most successful Godzilla movie ever - even if you and Toho didn't like it.

Wow, this is a fun thread. Excellent debate. Better than that one time in my Literture Through Films class, where me and another guy would go "This movie sucked!" "No, it rawked!" "No, it sucked!" "No, it rawked, but that movie DID suck." "Yeah!"

Good show, to everyone on both sides of the fence. Keep up the good debatin'!

(Yeah, I know it's impossible to win, but damn if I won't make a stand!"

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Ah, so now that they've been backed into a corner, the haters are pulling out the "you're not a real fan if you like the movie" statement.

Who the hell are you to judge my standards?

And as for Spider-man. Before that movie hit, the fans were calling it the worst insult to Spidey ever, for two little reasons: organic web shooters, and the Green Goblin design. Now look at what they say.

G1 was nothing more than Decepticons looking for energon and Autobots trying to stop them. Had the standard cartoon story lines of that time thrown in. Anything else is just rose colored nostalgia that we've all thrown in. I do it to, the difference is that I can let it go and see it for what it really was.

The only possible deviation from the original source this movie has is the Decepticons. They don't get much story development however, so we don't really know. We'll have to wait for the sequel.

This movie is the future of Transformers, weather the haters like it or not. All they can do is accept it and move on, or get out of dodge. This movie will do good, and there will be sequels.

Phategod1 wrote:Completly off-topic but I hated RiD too. If I wanted anime-crap I'd watch DBZ. Transformers did not, does not need to be Anime-ish and before anyone chimes in and says that G1 was anime. Im talking about those stupid japanimation "wild takes" (sweat Bubbles and other non-sense.)That plus there was too many humans. Beast wars and Beast machines had the right amount of Humes. NONE.

G1 wasnt anime. It was created here in the states. In order for it to be anime it has to be created and aired in japan first. Like DBZ, Gundam, and Robotech.

Zuko wrote:

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Because we haven't had quality in a Transformers show since Beast Wars.

We fans have been demanding quality. The movie assholes just didnt listen. Remember when they saide that Megatrons head would be changed because the fans were bitching? Well did it happen? No. They dont care about the fans. As long as the movie will make them money they dont give a rats ass about what the die hard fans think. If Bay wasnt directing it might have bee a diffrent story but since they got that idiot to direct he only wants to see what he wants on screen. Prime example: Pearl Harbor. That movie sucked but made money.

Megatron_Wolf wrote:We fans have been demanding quality. The movie assholes just didnt listen. Remember when they saide that Megatrons head would be changed because the fans were bitching? Well did it happen? No. They dont care about the fans. As long as the movie will make them money they dont give a rats ass about what the die hard fans think. If Bay wasnt directing it might have bee a diffrent story but since they got that idiot to direct he only wants to see what he wants on screen.

I think you're finally starting to see how movies are made.

It's been said before: If they made this specifically for the fans, which are a tiny piece of the population, it would fail horribly. Instead they're appealing to the larger crowd, which is the smart way to go.

Megatron_Wolf wrote:

Zuko wrote:

Phategod1 wrote:can I ask a question? How can someone be a fan of something for 20 years, and not be care about how its treated on celluloid. How can you invest hundreds of dollars on toys, Spend hundreds of hour on websites dedicated to it, but when it comes to the movie you don't demand quality? What if you spent $200.00 for MP prime and it fell apart the minute you took it out of the box? Why is Spiderman treated like the Holy Grail? It has nothing to do with how popular one series is over another It has to do with Director and Writer Competency. The thing is a lot of the "Fans" don't demand quality. But at least they (fans with low standards)can "enjoy the movie"

Because we haven't had quality in a Transformers show since Beast Wars.

We fans have been demanding quality. The movie assholes just didnt listen. Remember when they saide that Megatrons head would be changed because the fans were bitching? Well did it happen? No. They dont care about the fans. As long as the movie will make them money they dont give a rats ass about what the die hard fans think. If Bay wasnt directing it might have bee a diffrent story but since they got that idiot to direct he only wants to see what he wants on screen. Prime example: Pearl Harbor. That movie sucked but made money.

No really? That's exactly what I said two pages ago. They only said changes were made to stop the bitching for five minutes. And it worked. Theres no reason to cater to a couple thousand fans or even ten thousand fans because the movie would explode and maybe pull in a couple million.

Megatron_Wolf wrote:The movie assholes just didnt listen.

And why should they?

Milanion wrote:Godzilla98 was still the most successful Godzilla movie ever - even if you and Toho didn't like it.

Tristar - who made a ton internationally but didn't break even domestically when you factor in the 22 million spent on domestic marketing- were unhappy enough with it to cancel planned sequels and give Toho the go-ahead to restart their franchise a year later (which, per their contract with Tristar, was supposed to be on hold for as long as the American series continued).

The professional critics- http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/godzilla/ - didn't like it either.

The theater companies- who couldn't fill seats and were only allowed to keep something like 15% of the per-ticket-sales the first few weeks- weren't all too happy with it.

Trendmasters and other licensors- who lost money after the tepid response to the film failed to move their product- weren't too happy with it.

The retail companies like Toys R Us, KB Toys, Wal-Mart, etc. and their shareholders- who lost money because they had to clearance the Godzilla merchandise to get it to move- didn't think too fondly of it.

Taco Bell- who signed-on as a licensor after Burger King passed only to find nobody wanted their Godzilla tie-in merchandise and it wasn't doing anything for business- was pretty disappointed with it.


At their most successful the traditional Godzilla films have grossed over 3 to 4 times over their meager budgets, and even after the financial flop of Godzilla: Final Wars they continue to rake in royalties from the thriving collectibles industry.

In what way does any of that amount to "Godzilla98 was still the most successful Godzilla movie ever"?

AbsumZer0 wrote:

Milanion wrote:Godzilla98 was still the most successful Godzilla movie ever - even if you and Toho didn't like it.

Tristar - who made a ton internationally but didn't break even domestically when you factor in the 22 million spent on domestic marketing- were unhappy enough with it to cancel planned sequels and give Toho the go-ahead to restart their franchise a year later (which, per their contract with Tristar, was supposed to be on hold for as long as the American series continued).

The professional critics- http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/godzilla/ - didn't like it either.

The theater companies- who couldn't fill seats and were only allowed to keep something like 15% of the per-ticket-sales the first few weeks- weren't all too happy with it.

Trendmasters and other licensors- who lost money after the tepid response to the film failed to move their product- weren't too happy with it.

The retail companies like Toys R Us, KB Toys, Wal-Mart, etc. and their shareholders- who lost money because they had to clearance the Godzilla merchandise to get it to move- didn't think too fondly of it.

Taco Bell- who signed-on as a licensor after Burger King passed only to find nobody wanted their Godzilla tie-in merchandise and it wasn't doing anything for business- was pretty disappointed with it.


At their most successful the traditional Godzilla films have grossed over 3 to 4 times over their meager budgets, and even after the financial flop of Godzilla: Final Wars they continue to rake in royalties from the thriving collectibles industry.

In what way does any of that amount to "Godzilla98 was still the most successful Godzilla movie ever"?

Because, as even you said, "worldwide" it earned about 25 times more than any other movie in the franchise.

Taco Bell, Trendmasters, whatever - that's not the movie. The movie is the movie. It was successful as a movie. It was the most successful of the Godzilla movies.