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Optimus Primevil wrote: so what's stopping them to go back or is such a hell-hole that optimus doesn't want to go back? probably because based on the ending of the first movie he basically tells them to go to earth.

Yes. The planet is basicly destroyed. This was explained in the first movie.

Optimus Primevil wrote: you even read the part about the using them as bait for a trap?).

Yes, but again, how do you plan on
1.- Housing them
2.- You run a very high risk more lives being put in danger in an attempted decepticon rescue.
3.- now you must create a facility that is not large enough, and strong enough to house all the captured decepticons.

Optimus Primevil wrote:they're sentient are they? so by optimus' logic they are entitled to freedom...hence why he kills them all instead(according to the movies).

Your reading his line out of context. In the first movie Ironhide asks..
"Why are we fighting to protect the humans? There such a primitive race." Optimus answer was.."Freedom is the right of all seintient beings". Meaning just because there not as advanced as we are does not mean they don't have the right to be free. The decepticons are planning to take our freedom and chocies away from us. That is not cool under Optimus watch.

so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?

Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?

When did we disect any advance beings? If your referring to megatron we never decected him.

But i'll ask again, how do you plan on holding any decpticon prisoners?

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?

When did we disect any advance beings? If your referring to megatron we never decected him.

But i'll ask again, how do you plan on holding any decpticon prisoners?

chop off zee limbs, surround the area with earth's toxic waste(well if cybertron's such a hell hole now then prime won't object to the earth's governments to use it as a dumping ground now would he?) then blow off aging earth nukes when someone gets on the perimeter.

harsh, yes but movie prime's all ready ruthless.

megatron was being picked off one piece at a time because he's the only specimen sector 7 had at the time. bumblebee's the one they'd tear open to see what's ticking.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote: don't the autobots have any 'holding facilities' on cybertron?

Maybe. But there not on Cybertron. There on earth.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and what makes megatron (and sentinel) any different from the roman and british empires who conquered and enslaved yet history sings praises of their accomplishments? then again megatron would be more alike with chinggis khan and history speaks more of his brutality than his accomplishments.?

Um, no history does not praise slavery as their acomplishments. Don't know who is teaching you history, but i'd switch classes.

Optimus Primevil wrote: in the dark horse star wars mini-series crimson empire, the main baddie carnor jax was wanted captured alive by the rebellion because of all his knowledge of the empire. with him they could end the war in a matter of months (as opposed to years). even though megatron and sentinel were off-planet for millenia, they still have forces loyal to them and by killing them off, those forces would've probably gone underground and engage in hit-and-run tactics. a skilled tactician could've used them (megatron and sentinel) as bait to draw those forces into a trap.

Again, your asuming that there is a facility large and strong enough to house them. And even if that were the case, you run the risk of the enemy forces staging a rescue and putting more lives in danger. Sentinel Proved that he was as strong, aif not stronger than Optimus. Atempting to hold him would have been to high of a risk. And concidering both Megs and Sentinel's ideal were to destroy/enslave the human race and that they can potentially lie for thousands of years, holding them captive wasn't feasible from logical stand point.

Optimus Primevil wrote:but then again, they are sentient and thus have the right to freedom

So its their right for freedom, but it it ok for them to take our freedom away? Sentinel and Megatron wanted to use Humans as slave labor, clean us dry of natural resources and were responisble for not only Autobot deaths, but hundreds of human deaths as well. Yet you believe they should still have the rights of freedom? Really?

twiztid_soundwave wrote:The thing that gets me, is that people understate the power the director has in regards to re-writes. If something goes on that the director didn't like, he has, full right to revise, and change it if he wishes, See Richard Donner's superman, their were many things cut, and changed by the directors wants. Bay is given FAR too little negativity where people use the writers as an excuse for bad character representation

But as this is, and always was, HIS vision, His Prime is just that, Bay's view of what Prime should do, and what he should be, taking nothing g1 or anything in regard. Hence, why he gets bashed for it

Actually, Prime was more "G1" in the first TF movie, but ya know what? People did nothing but bitch and complain on how much of a pussy he was getting the crap beaten out of him by Megatron. So Bay & Co. responded by making him the bad ass he should be. But again, people still bitched and complained that he to violent. So please don't give this garbage that this Prime is solely based on "Bay's vision", cause that is wrong. And please get over the G1 one referenaces. This is not G1, and even when the reboot comes in several years, don't expect it to be based off G1 either.

You say this is his vision and want to put it all on him. Where do you fit Hasbro's responisblity in all of this? They own the rights to TF. Not Bay. Its there product thats being represented. Not Bay's. They have the final say on what goes. Cause in the end, there one of the main parties that are highering him to represent thier product. So how about pointing your anger/fustration on the party the truly calls the shots.[/[quote]


This This This

I liked bay version of prime

Optimus Primevil wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?

When did we disect any advance beings? If your referring to megatron we never decected him.

But i'll ask again, how do you plan on holding any decpticon prisoners?

chop off zee limbs, surround the area with earth's toxic waste(well if cybertron's such a hell hole now then prime won't object to the earth's governments to use it as a dumping ground now would he?) then blow off aging earth nukes when someone gets on the perimeter.

harsh, yes but movie prime's all ready ruthless.

That is barbaric and sadistic, killing them is far more humane.

it's kinda difficult what counts as sadistic in regards to the movie tf's anatomy...swindle got beheaded and still managed to function. bumblebee got his legs blown off and he's still ticking. brawl/devastator managed to get up after all that crap he took.

i guess if it's like sideswipe who managed to pull off a one-liner describing how good he is when he cleaved sideways in half, that probably counts because it (depends on the viewer) sound like he had fun doing it.

Being nothing more than a torso locked away in a toxic wasteland sounds like hell. I think anyone would rather be dead than in that condition.

yup, off course that what i would do. prime won't do that. but 5150 cruiser was asking how would such a plan should take place and i gave him one scenario.

well diffrent people have got diffrent views. iv only watched the films including the cartoon one so i know nothings apart from the films.
everyone has freedom, youv just got to be carful of what you do thats all.

Optimus Primevil wrote: chop off zee limbs, surround the area with earth's toxic waste(well if cybertron's such a hell hole now then prime won't object to the earth's governments to use it as a dumping ground now would he?) then blow off aging earth nukes when someone gets on the perimeter.

harsh, yes but movie prime's all ready ruthless.

megatron was being picked off one piece at a time because he's the only specimen sector 7 had at the time. bumblebee's the one they'd tear open to see what's ticking.

Wow. I mean, really?

Your suggesting that cutting off the limbs of captured decepticons, surrounding them in toxic waste, and then setting off neucular weapons whitch would result in the instant death of them, as well as anyone within a 50 mile raduis is far better plan then just killing them in battle? Not to meantion the radiation that would linger and cause the slow death of thousands. This in your eyes is a better idea and more humane..

you do realize it's on cybertron or are you still thinking earth? because of course it's whacked to do that plan on earth and no government would allow that on their soil to happen.

death squads all the way then

Optimus Primevil wrote:you do realize it's on cybertron or are you still thinking earth? because of course it's whacked to do that plan on earth and no government would allow that on their soil to happen.

death squads all the way then

we were talking about earth. When did the conversation shift to Cybertron? Remember, they have no way to get back to Cybertron. SO i'll give you one more chance to validate your aurgument. On eath, how do you plan on imprisoning captured Decepticons??

oh sorry, i assumed they can go home via space bridges, if not go to space manually (they were capable of space flight in the first movie after all).

i'm sure the UN would rather imprison decepticons rather than have an armed group hunting, rounding them up and killing them all...you know like jews during world war II

Optimus Primevil wrote: i'm sure the UN would rather imprison decepticons rather than have an armed group hunting, rounding them up and killing them all...you know like jews during world war II

1.- After three attempts you still have not answered How you plan on imprisoning captured decepticon??

2.- Your Aurgument of the UN rather imprisoning them vs. hunting them is invalid since they have been hunting them. If they wanted to imprison them then they would have made provision to do so already instead of hunting them in ROTF.

And how can you compare their imprisoning to Jews in WWII??? Jews were not attempting to kill us and take over our planet.
I'm trying to be calm and respectfull as i can, but you keep avoid the questions asked and then using completely non relevent aurguments to attempt to back yours up and non of it is working to your benifit.

1.freeze them (like sector seven did) if you're not into turning them into torsos.

2.i mentioned the UN because apparently NEST is not a global task force if they had to request a clearance to use jordanian aerospace. and the problem at the shanghai scene is do they event want to capture them or are they just there to kill them? Optimus could me a grand speech at an assembly why it is imperative to take them all out and no quarter would be given, but then he'll probably look like an genocidial maniac.

3.didn't adolf claim that jews are bringing down the germans and must be eliminated? same argument, different set of people. even if they're evil who are they (humans and autobots) to be entitled the right to genocide to a side who are for all purposes defeated militarily?

Optimus Primevil wrote:1.freeze them (like sector seven did) if you're not into turning them into torsos.

2.i mentioned the UN because apparently NEST is not a global task force if they had to request a clearance to use jordanian aerospace. and the problem at the shanghai scene is do they event want to capture them or are they just there to kill them? Optimus could me a grand speech at an assembly why it is imperative to take them all out and no quarter would be given, but then he'll probably look like an genocidial maniac.

3.didn't adolf claim that jews are bringing down the germans and must be eliminated? same argument, different set of people. even if they're evil who are they (humans and autobots) to be entitled the right to genocide to a side who are for all purposes defeated militarily?

short answer:
for the greater good just exterminate them.

1) maybe to expensive to put them dormant via cryo statis and too dangerous.
2) OP is fed up. the war took too long.
3) well, ... they are the good guys... permission granted.

if only prime didn't keep using his tech spec quote in the movies, it would've been ok. makes him look like a hypocrite

rich prime wrote:

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote:

Actually, Prime was more "G1" in the first TF movie, but ya know what? People did nothing but bitch and complain on how much of a pussy he was getting the crap beaten out of him by Megatron. So Bay & Co. responded by making him the bad ass he should be. But again, people still bitched and complained that he to violent. So please don't give this garbage that this Prime is solely based on "Bay's vision", cause that is wrong. And please get over the G1 one referenaces. This is not G1, and even when the reboot comes in several years, don't expect it to be based off G1 either.

[/

G1 one, .."That he to violent....."? and there you have it folks the argument by the lowest common denominator.

the quote makes it unclear who's the one who compared movie prime to g1 prime, unless you backtrack to page 3.

He freed a lot of necks from carrying the burden of their heads.

what would happen if

a: decepticons surrendered to prime after DoTM?
b: decepticons surrendered to earth governments instead of the autobots if prime does not take prisoners?

Optimus Primevil wrote: 1.freeze them (like sector seven did) if you're not into turning them into torsos.

The only reason it worked for megatron was because he was already frozen. If you remember they were trying to freeze Bumble Bee and it wasn't working to well. Even with him not resisting after a good 20 minutes, he still wasn't frozen.

Optimus Primevil wrote: 2.i mentioned the UN because apparently NEST is not a global task force if they had to request a clearance to use jordanian aerospace...

They are a global task force, but that doesn't mean you have free rein to do whatever, when ever you want. There are still rules and laws that must be abided to.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and the problem at the shanghai scene is do they event want to capture them or are they just there to kill them? Optimus could me a grand speech at an assembly why it is imperative to take them all out and no quarter would be given, but then he'll probably look like an genocidial maniac..

Or maybe they would listen to him because he has thousands of years experiance fighting with them and knows first hand what there capable of. Not to meantion what they've already done on earth.

Optimus Primevil wrote:3.didn't adolf claim that jews are bringing down the germans and must be eliminated? same argument, different set of people. even if they're evil who are they (humans and autobots) to be entitled the right to genocide to a side who are for all purposes defeated militarily?

Your aurgument fails on a few acounts..

1.- Hitler had no evidence other than his own predjudice about the jews bringing down the german race.(and their is absolutely no aurgument of the case anyhow)

2.-The decepticons had already killed inocent humans and there plan was to continue to kill and enslave humanity.

3.-You say their defeted, then why are they such a threat to humanity and killing inocent humans? To the point were humans are abiding by their oderes and exiling the autobots? Doesn't sound like their defeted to me.


They were a serious threat, their intentions were to enslave humanity and take our resources, and they continued to kill inocent humans without quarter. At this point i still feel Optimus is fully justified in taking them all out.

1a. so the bots can't freeze the decepticons themselves? i would've suggested they'd supply the humans with better freezing tech but then optimus might object because the humans would probably weaponize it.
2a. that's the point, the UN would have more clearance to go to places because at least, on paper, they're neutral. the UN would have better chance to go to cuba than NATO or the US can.
3a. if he has such experience, then why did optimus chose the path that lead to a lot of collateral damage?

1b.nationalism practically needs a threat to focus their attention against, real or otherwise. what or whoever disagrees with them is their enemy. freedom fries anyone? besides, if based on the estimated wealth the germans took from the jews, it was a die hard 1 style misdirection, incite the populace with hatred and take the targets wealth.
2b.so what makes them different from the conquistadors? the rubber barons? white traffickers. humans being inhumane to humans, you'd expect nonhumans to be humane to humans? especially if one of their leaders were abused by humans(what was the fallen's reason for hating humans again?)? heck they didn't even want to admit that he's sentient hence the insistence they call him N.B.E.1
3b. so a human teaching decepticons to be ruthless ok with you?

so genocide is ok with you as long as to save another species?

I think I agree with 5150 Cruiser.