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He freed a lot of necks from carrying the burden of their heads.

what would happen if

a: decepticons surrendered to prime after DoTM?
b: decepticons surrendered to earth governments instead of the autobots if prime does not take prisoners?

Optimus Primevil wrote: 1.freeze them (like sector seven did) if you're not into turning them into torsos.

The only reason it worked for megatron was because he was already frozen. If you remember they were trying to freeze Bumble Bee and it wasn't working to well. Even with him not resisting after a good 20 minutes, he still wasn't frozen.

Optimus Primevil wrote: 2.i mentioned the UN because apparently NEST is not a global task force if they had to request a clearance to use jordanian aerospace...

They are a global task force, but that doesn't mean you have free rein to do whatever, when ever you want. There are still rules and laws that must be abided to.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and the problem at the shanghai scene is do they event want to capture them or are they just there to kill them? Optimus could me a grand speech at an assembly why it is imperative to take them all out and no quarter would be given, but then he'll probably look like an genocidial maniac..

Or maybe they would listen to him because he has thousands of years experiance fighting with them and knows first hand what there capable of. Not to meantion what they've already done on earth.

Optimus Primevil wrote:3.didn't adolf claim that jews are bringing down the germans and must be eliminated? same argument, different set of people. even if they're evil who are they (humans and autobots) to be entitled the right to genocide to a side who are for all purposes defeated militarily?

Your aurgument fails on a few acounts..

1.- Hitler had no evidence other than his own predjudice about the jews bringing down the german race.(and their is absolutely no aurgument of the case anyhow)

2.-The decepticons had already killed inocent humans and there plan was to continue to kill and enslave humanity.

3.-You say their defeted, then why are they such a threat to humanity and killing inocent humans? To the point were humans are abiding by their oderes and exiling the autobots? Doesn't sound like their defeted to me.


They were a serious threat, their intentions were to enslave humanity and take our resources, and they continued to kill inocent humans without quarter. At this point i still feel Optimus is fully justified in taking them all out.

1a. so the bots can't freeze the decepticons themselves? i would've suggested they'd supply the humans with better freezing tech but then optimus might object because the humans would probably weaponize it.
2a. that's the point, the UN would have more clearance to go to places because at least, on paper, they're neutral. the UN would have better chance to go to cuba than NATO or the US can.
3a. if he has such experience, then why did optimus chose the path that lead to a lot of collateral damage?

1b.nationalism practically needs a threat to focus their attention against, real or otherwise. what or whoever disagrees with them is their enemy. freedom fries anyone? besides, if based on the estimated wealth the germans took from the jews, it was a die hard 1 style misdirection, incite the populace with hatred and take the targets wealth.
2b.so what makes them different from the conquistadors? the rubber barons? white traffickers. humans being inhumane to humans, you'd expect nonhumans to be humane to humans? especially if one of their leaders were abused by humans(what was the fallen's reason for hating humans again?)? heck they didn't even want to admit that he's sentient hence the insistence they call him N.B.E.1
3b. so a human teaching decepticons to be ruthless ok with you?

so genocide is ok with you as long as to save another species?

I think I agree with 5150 Cruiser.

Optimus Primevil wrote: 1a. so the bots can't freeze the decepticons themselves? i would've suggested they'd supply the humans with better freezing tech but then optimus might object because the humans would probably weaponize it.

There was nothing i the movie that suggested they had any kind of freezing weapons, so no, they can't freeze them without the Humans help.

Optimus Primevil wrote:2a. that's the point, the UN would have more clearance to go to places because at least, on paper, they're neutral. the UN would have better chance to go to cuba than NATO or the US can..

Only a select few were privliged to see the autobots in person. So at that time speaking directly in front of the U.N. wasn't a possibility.

Optimus Primevil wrote: 3a. if he has such experience, then why did optimus chose the path that lead to a lot of collateral damage?..

1b.- he does have the experiance. There is no aurguing this. period. He has been the Leder of the autobots for thousands of years. He is the only one that can give inteligence on the decepticons and there actions.
2b.-What makes you think there was any other way than the methoed used? Your asuming the decepticons would have been willing captures of Nest and the Autobots, and all evidence has pointed to that being false.

Optimus Primevil wrote: 1b.nationalism practically needs a threat to focus their attention against, real or otherwise. what or whoever disagrees with them is their enemy. freedom fries anyone? besides, if based on the estimated wealth the germans took from the jews, it was a die hard 1 style misdirection, incite the populace with hatred and take the targets wealth.

You just proved my point why the decepticons need to be terminated and justifing Optimus actions. The decepticons, like the germans believed anyone that didn't believe in their cause deserved to be exterminated. There was no cause for the cons cause other than there own greed.

Optimus Primevil wrote: 2b.so what makes them different from the conquistadors? the rubber barons? white traffickers. humans being inhumane to humans, you'd expect nonhumans to be humane to humans? especially if one of their leaders were abused by humans(what was the fallen's reason for hating humans again?)? .

Fail. Complete fail. If you are familiar with anything TF then you know that their war on earth has nothing to do with any of their leader being "abused" by humans. This never happeed. And if your reffering to megatron, he was never abused by humans. It was stated he was studied and they reversed engineered him to make modern day equipment. And the fallen didn't have a reason to hate humans. He wanted to turn on the machine back in the 600 B.C. to harvest the sun and destroy the human race. So there was absolutely nothing the humans could have done to either prevent this, or agravate the fallen. The fact that you thik there is any defense for the cons is border line insulting.

Optimus Primevil wrote: heck they didn't even want to admit that he's sentient hence the insistence they call him N.B.E.1
3b. so a human teaching decepticons to be ruthless ok with you?.

Lol.. To bad that never happened. decepticons were ruthless far before any human interaction. The fallen wanting to turn on the sun harvester is direct proof of this.

Optimus Primevil wrote: so genocide is ok with you as long as to save another species?

Genocide is exactly what the Cons were attempting to do!!! How do you not see this??? The cons came to earth. Not the other way around. We are protecting our way of life. Nothing more, nothing less. At this point your just reaching in an attempt to prove to yourself that your right, but all your doing is backing up Optimus actions and behavior

Red 50 wrote:I think I agree with 5150 Cruiser.

Thank you! At least what i'm saying makes sence to someone!

1a. it all the insta-powers RoTF had, no one thought of having a transformer capable of freezing abilities?

2a. can't it be a closed door meeting? if the decepticons are such a threat then why inform only a few that there is such a threat?

3a. if you listen at prime's line to a fallen demolishor, optimus had no plans to let them live at all, hence why can't they have a sniper unit take them down rather than send an combat unit to drag the fight as long as it did. moviewise that would suck, real life it's practical. prime don't have the experience to think of such a plan?

4. so when adolf uses that arguement it's bad but when optimus does it, it's good? it's like torture and WMDs it's either bad or not, you don't go renaming it to "weapons of mass protection" or "whatever the US is calling torture".

5. allspark fell on earth, megs could've just taken it but got skyfired and humans picked off pieces of him to make "earth" tech while being aware and not being able to do anything. if megatron had no hatred of humans when he came here, he did now. the fallen would've killed us anyway if the sun harvester was on mercury, the rule of the primes was that never put the darn thing on a planet with life.

6.so dylan gould doesn't count?

7. they're protecting theirs by trying to get the allspark and turn the darn machine on.

Optimus Primevil wrote:1a. it all the insta-powers RoTF had, no one thought of having a transformer capable of freezing abilities?.

Apparently not. We can only go by what we have seen, not what we "Think" they could have come up with.

2a. can't it be a closed door meeting? if the decepticons are such a threat then why inform only a few that there is such a threat?

Because people a whole are stupid. You tell who you need to tell and thats it. The more you tell, the more likely it is that priliged information gts out in the public eye.

3a. if you listen at prime's line to a fallen demolishor, optimus had no plans to let them live at all, hence why can't they have a sniper unit take them down rather than send an combat unit to drag the fight as long as it did. moviewise that would suck, real life it's practical. prime don't have the experience to think of such a plan?

You just answered you own question.
1.- people don't pay $10 to see a con get snipered and thats it.
2.- Demolisher, Sideways, and presumibly every con in hiding) is in vehicle mode. If your going to sniper someone, you need a clear shot of a vital body part. You don't have that shot in vehicle mode. (and no, there aren't no speacial infra red energon sensing equipment that can tell nest or the autobots were the heads or sparks are. So don't even try it. )

4. so when adolf uses that arguement it's bad but when optimus does it, it's good? it's like torture and WMDs it's either bad or not, you don't go renaming it to "weapons of mass protection" or "whatever the US is calling torture".

Do you even pay attention to what is said? Seriously, last time dude. I've explained on 3 different occasions what the differance is. Hittler was about world domination and imprisoned inocent people based on lies and his own personal predijuce. Basicly exactly what the decepticons cause were about. Prime and the autobots were about fefending the humans and the right to live on their own planet from the decepticons who planed on destroying earth and enslaving humanity. Yet, you somehow still believe that their lifes should be spared?

5. allspark fell on earth, megs could've just taken it but got skyfired and humans picked off pieces of him to make "earth" tech while being aware and not being able to do anything. if megatron had no hatred of humans when he came here, he did now. the fallen would've killed us anyway if the sun harvester was on mercury, the rule of the primes was that never put the darn thing on a planet with life.

Again, you don't listen to anything. He was never picked off. He was studied! Get it?? Studied!! And the rule was to never destroy a sun that would in turn destory a planet with life. And even so, if your rule was the correct one, you just proved yourself wrong again! They did put the damn thing on a planet with life and the fallen knowing this still wanted to turn it on!

6.so dylan gould doesn't count?

No he doesn't, cause the decepticons were doing far worse to humans long before him. Heck, the Cons even turned against their own human conspirators and had Lazerbeak kill them all.

7. they're protecting theirs by trying to get the allspark and turn the darn machine on

No, it had nothing to do with protecting their own. It was the Fallen's greed that was the modivation to turn on the machine.


At this point, we seem to be going around in circles and you have disproved your own "therey's" in your own posts. So at this pint, i'm not sure if there anything more that can be added to help your case. Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

@4. so in insane troll logic, is optimus using us to justify the extinction of the decepticons? and yes, i believe they can be saved but how can you save them if you kill them all? oh it's wrong to execute a weaponsmith but it's ok to execute someone missing most of his face, and body.
@5. so who scanned the planet? pretty sloppy for them to have built the darn thing and ready to go then some humanoids show up at the grand opening. and about megs, it was pretty obvious something's not right with him if he can't even fly straight, sector seven might not have picked him ALL off but they probably took SOMETHING off to make the stuff simmons said they produced thanks to NBE-1.
@7 is it greed or impatience? since they already had a complete machine set up, wouldn't it be a shame to not use it? besides, if the fallen is such an unworthy fellow, then the matrix would be turned into magic dust and he can't turn it on anyway. the fact that the fallen can use the matrix means he is worthy of leadership, just not the leader you like.

I watched Captain America last week, and there's a scene that I find that perfectly explains the nature of G1 Optimus, Optimus Primal, and even the Optimus in Transformers Prime, When Stanley Tucci's character asks Steve Rodgers (captain America) if he wants to just Kill Nazi's Steve's (captain America's) response is "I don't want to kill anyone I just hate bullies". This is what Bay's Prime fails to capture, Bays Prime believes the only good threat is a dead threat. Its kind of hypocritical to say freedom is right of all sentient life but only if your an autobot and agree with me and the way I do things.

Bays prime does not take prisoners, and kills wounded enemies, that does not sound noble at all.