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freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:27 am

Phategod1 wrote:I watched Captain America last week, and there's a scene that I find that perfectly explains the nature of G1 Optimus, Optimus Primal, and even the Optimus in Transformers Prime, When Stanley Tucci's character asks Steve Rodgers (captain America) if he wants to just Kill Nazi's Steve's (captain America's) response is "I don't want to kill anyone I just hate bullies". This is what Bay's Prime fails to capture, Bays Prime believes the only good threat is a dead threat. Its kind of hypocritical to say freedom is right of all sentient life but only if your an autobot and agree with me and the way I do things.

Bays prime does not take prisoners, and kills wounded enemies, that does not sound noble at all.


cap takes it a bit further after bucky gets killedthat he won't stop until all of hydra is killed or CAPTURED, so even after all the things hydra did, he was still willing to give them some mercy.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:33 am

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Optimus Primevil wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:I watched Captain America last week, and there's a scene that I find that perfectly explains the nature of G1 Optimus, Optimus Primal, and even the Optimus in Transformers Prime, When Stanley Tucci's character asks Steve Rodgers (captain America) if he wants to just Kill Nazi's Steve's (captain America's) response is "I don't want to kill anyone I just hate bullies". This is what Bay's Prime fails to capture, Bays Prime believes the only good threat is a dead threat. Its kind of hypocritical to say freedom is right of all sentient life but only if your an autobot and agree with me and the way I do things.

Bays prime does not take prisoners, and kills wounded enemies, that does not sound noble at all.


cap takes it a bit further after bucky gets killedthat he won't stop until all of hydra is killed or CAPTURED, so even after all the things hydra did, he was still willing to give them some mercy.

The big difference is there really is no way to imprison Decepticons. They're too dangerous to just throw in a box.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby JetOptimus23 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:46 pm

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Optimus Primevil wrote:@4. so in insane troll logic, is optimus using us to justify the extinction of the decepticons? and yes, i believe they can be saved but how can you save them if you kill them all? oh it's wrong to execute a weaponsmith but it's ok to execute someone missing most of his face, and body.
@5. so who scanned the planet? pretty sloppy for them to have built the darn thing and ready to go then some humanoids show up at the grand opening. and about megs, it was pretty obvious something's not right with him if he can't even fly straight, sector seven might not have picked him ALL off but they probably took SOMETHING off to make the stuff simmons said they produced thanks to NBE-1.
@7 is it greed or impatience? since they already had a complete machine set up, wouldn't it be a shame to not use it? besides, if the fallen is such an unworthy fellow, then the matrix would be turned into magic dust and he can't turn it on anyway. the fact that the fallen can use the matrix means he is worthy of leadership, just not the leader you like.

...have you been talking to a woman with a snake around her neck? Because it really seems like you think the AUTOBOTS are the opressers here.

Let me lay it down for you: The Decepticons wanted to first create an army of our machines to take over the universe. When that failed, they tried to destroy the sun for energon, which of course would've killed everything. Luckily, the Autobots stopped them. Then they moved on to invading earth, attacking a major human city, killing most of it's imhabitants, and planning to enslave all of humanity to rebuild their planet, and then probably killing all of their remaining slaves. So really, there's no use defending them, and how do you contain a giant, alien robot when you're a squishy human being?
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Phategod1 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:35 am

Evil_the_Nub wrote:
Optimus Primevil wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:I watched Captain America last week, and there's a scene that I find that perfectly explains the nature of G1 Optimus, Optimus Primal, and even the Optimus in Transformers Prime, When Stanley Tucci's character asks Steve Rodgers (captain America) if he wants to just Kill Nazi's Steve's (captain America's) response is "I don't want to kill anyone I just hate bullies". This is what Bay's Prime fails to capture, Bays Prime believes the only good threat is a dead threat. Its kind of hypocritical to say freedom is right of all sentient life but only if your an autobot and agree with me and the way I do things.

Bays prime does not take prisoners, and kills wounded enemies, that does not sound noble at all.


cap takes it a bit further after bucky gets killedthat he won't stop until all of hydra is killed or CAPTURED, so even after all the things hydra did, he was still willing to give them some mercy.

The big difference is there really is no way to imprison Decepticons. They're too dangerous to just throw in a box.


If the autobots were given the resources to operate completely autonomously They would have had foresight to build prisons, there were cells on the Ark, Megatron was held up at hoover Damn for how long? There machines once they were disabled it not like there wounds would heal and they'd be up to full strength, and ready to blow up some prison gaurd.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:01 am

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Phategod1 wrote:
Evil_the_Nub wrote:
Optimus Primevil wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:I watched Captain America last week, and there's a scene that I find that perfectly explains the nature of G1 Optimus, Optimus Primal, and even the Optimus in Transformers Prime, When Stanley Tucci's character asks Steve Rodgers (captain America) if he wants to just Kill Nazi's Steve's (captain America's) response is "I don't want to kill anyone I just hate bullies". This is what Bay's Prime fails to capture, Bays Prime believes the only good threat is a dead threat. Its kind of hypocritical to say freedom is right of all sentient life but only if your an autobot and agree with me and the way I do things.

Bays prime does not take prisoners, and kills wounded enemies, that does not sound noble at all.


cap takes it a bit further after bucky gets killedthat he won't stop until all of hydra is killed or CAPTURED, so even after all the things hydra did, he was still willing to give them some mercy.

The big difference is there really is no way to imprison Decepticons. They're too dangerous to just throw in a box.


If the autobots were given the resources to operate completely autonomously They would have had foresight to build prisons, there were cells on the Ark, Megatron was held up at hoover Damn for how long? There machines once they were disabled it not like there wounds would heal and they'd be up to full strength, and ready to blow up some prison gaurd.

Megatron escaped remember? You can't keep someone locked up when his buddies are capable of hacking even the most secure computers. And are able to disguise themselves as anything, even people.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby dinojack86 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:50 am

If they had devoted a little more time to Optimus' characterization in relation to the other Autobots and Decepticons it would have made a little more sense I think. His actions at the end of DOTM were the sum of everything he had been through in the entire war. Remember the war had been fought for thousands of years before Optimus arrived at earth. He made it very clear that earth was the Autobots new home, living peacefully with humans, protecting them. A bond grows between Optimus and Sam (Sam even dies trying to bring him back to life!) so you can see there is a strong connection there. Sam is human and his people were in trouble. Optimus believed more than anything else it was his duty to protect Sam and his people. Thus, after a drawn out war, dying by the hands of Megatron already (only to be revived), being betrayed by his coach, mentor and friend, knowing that failure meant the destruction of earth, SEEING that destruction right before his eyes, Optimus' actions at the end of DOTM make sense to me.

He killed Megatron having been tricked and offered ample amount of opportunity then he executes Sentinel Prime acting as the final judge for his fallen friend. And don't get it twisted, Sentinel Prime probably deserved a lot worse considering what he did. There's no telling how many humans he killed as well as killing Ironhide (Optimus' best friend and battle-buddy (army term). I think Optimus acted upon the ebst solution he could think of, as leader of the Autobots he can make that call. Freedom is everyone's right but there are still consequences for our actions.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Biddybot » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:23 pm

One of the reasons I really like movieverse Optimus Prime is that his behaviour seems refreshingly alien to me now, that his own codes of ethics and morality have gradually progressed during the course of the three movies from something that the average human would consider proper and justifiable to something that seems much more objective, pragmatic, and, well, machine-driven in nature. And I do mean ‘progress’. A somewhat alien-thinking, impossible to fully predict Optimus is much more interesting to me than an Optimus who’s really just a big guy in a metal suit standing in for a standard human hero.

Here’s one possible interpretation of how his thought processes might have changed if he really has gone ‘alien’... First, I do think Optimus started off as somewhat human-standard insofar as what constitutes the average person’s definitions of ‘goodness’ and ‘heroism’. Had he been able to defeat Megatron in the first movie, I believe Optimus might have let a wounded Megatron slink off with his surviving minions. He would have read him the Autobot version of the riot act—“Show your face on Earth again and I’ll ensure that you no longer HAVE a face."—but he would have let him live. That would have been the noble thing to do, the human thing, to show mercy even to your enemy. Not the smartest thing to do, but that’s part of being a human hero too, to be a little stupid sometimes for the sake of upholding your morals. As it was, Megatron kicked his butt and Optimus prepared to sacrifice himself instead. Again, a noble choice. Luckily averted, but still…I think most people would consider his intent there heroic in nature…

By the time ROTF rolled around, I think something must have happened that began inherently altering Optimus’s response to the Deception threat. Perhaps the body count, the amount of destruction wrought during the unfilmed months built up bit by bit just as rain caught by a tipping bucket rain gauge builds up drop by drop until the collection unit clicks over to start anew. Except that in Optimus’s case, his ‘clicks’ didn’t record units of rainfall, they amounted to an ever increasing escalation of potential aggression. Eventually, his aggression shifted from merely reactive to proactive. The loss of the AllSpark may have played a role here too. Perhaps its loss even WAS the factor that began the escalation or forced the shift—with all hope of creating more Transformers gone, I’d say it would be very logical for Optimus to become much more protective of those few Autobots that are left and begin expanding that umbrella of protection over his new alien comrades as well. In short, he no longer wants to just chase away the predators threatening his flock, he now wants to destroy them completely. By hunting, traps or poison, the ethics of how he does it isn’t so important anymore, Optimus just wants them all GONE.

Acquiring Jetfire’s sacrificial parts and a greater degree of power probably cranks Optimus’s innate potential aggressiveness even higher. And sometime during the intervening years and by the time DOTM starts, his protective drive expands yet again to encompass the entire Earth. Optimus has now become utterly naturalized. He now feels it his sworn duty to protect his new home and all its inhabitants, even if said threats should come from his former home or even former colleagues. If it’s Deception in nature or in league with the Decepticons, it’s become something to be eradicated. Exterminated. The betrayal of Sentinel Prime, that just triggers the very last click. Never again will Optimus Prime allow any second chances, be agreeable to parlaying with enemies or playing at posturing. Threaten his adopted planet and people in the least again, and he’ll retaliate in full immediately. And so he should. Cause that’s the way I like my Optimus!

Given all that, it should now be easy to understand how such an Optimus Prime could still say that “Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." and sincerely believe it. Because from his mindset and his viewpoint, the very act or even intent of causing harm to any of HIS charges instantly negates your right to consider yourself sentient. Malicious destruction and preying on others, that's what animals do, Optimus might think…sick, instinct-driven, non-thinking animals. The kind of living organisms Optimus no longer has any qualms about putting down.

Or something like that. It’s entirely possible that the movies just had crappy, inconsistent script-writing.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:52 pm

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Optimus Primevil wrote:@4. so in insane troll logic, is optimus using us to justify the extinction of the decepticons? and yes, i believe they can be saved but how can you save them if you kill them all? oh it's wrong to execute a weaponsmith but it's ok to execute someone missing most of his face, and body.
@5. so who scanned the planet? pretty sloppy for them to have built the darn thing and ready to go then some humanoids show up at the grand opening. and about megs, it was pretty obvious something's not right with him if he can't even fly straight, sector seven might not have picked him ALL off but they probably took SOMETHING off to make the stuff simmons said they produced thanks to NBE-1.
@7 is it greed or impatience? since they already had a complete machine set up, wouldn't it be a shame to not use it? besides, if the fallen is such an unworthy fellow, then the matrix would be turned into magic dust and he can't turn it on anyway. the fact that the fallen can use the matrix means he is worthy of leadership, just not the leader you like.



All of your so called "aurguments' have been put to rest and are poorly constructed. Bottom line is the cons started the war, killed inocent human life and attempted to enslave humanity to ensure their way of life. They needed to be put down. Optimus did not kill inocent Cons.
And Megatrons truce... He killed Optimus once before, killed his comrades, humans and Was one of the orcistrators of enslaving humanity. His truce was a farce. There is no defense for Megatron. Non what-so-ever.

Phategod1 wrote:Its kind of hypocritical to say freedom is right of all sentient life but only if your an autobot and agree with me and the way I do things.


No its not hypocritcal. You completely fail to see the meaning of his words. Freedom is everyones right in the way that someone else does not have the right to take that freedom away. whitch is exactly what the decepticons were doing. Killing humanity with the harvester, and then attempting to enslave humanity. Optimus was protecting humanity from the decepticons. You both seriously believe that when one attempts the vile acts that the decepticons have done, that they should go unpunished and their freedoms still should remain? For what? So they could continue to do the same? And no, they can not be imprisoned. This aurgument is non sence. They live for centuries. Were expected to just pile them up in storage? And please, their is no "Re habilitation program".

Their actions are indefensible, and defending them is just that.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby dylansdad » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:15 am

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Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

Yeah, totally agree. The Optimus I know & admire would never kill an injured,unarmed foe. This movie sucks bad & has perverted all that was good about Transformers.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Red 50 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:08 pm

Motto: "Never send an army to do a dinobot's job"
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Now which opponent do you mean?

Demolishor - being so large he is still a potential threat and even if they had some means to cryo-contain them, he'd be too large for it.

Shockwave - Decepticons had invaded a human city. Killed thousands of people. Shockwave was among them, maybe even leading some of them. He may have been crippled a bit by humans, but it made him no less dangerous.

Megatron - if he had let him live, then after making a full recovery, he would have most likely started new assault. Optimus prevented the cycle repeating by killing him, wether or not it was a worthy kill, is yours to debate.

Sentinel Prime - every crime has a price and punishment. In war, treason and killing your own troops is above all others. Besides after Megatrons vicious attack he was most likeley already dying, Optimus just finished him faster.

The many Decepticon Troops - Like with Shockwave, they had killed thousands of men, women and children. They were gonna wreck and destroy a planet Optimus had sworn to protect, his friends among them. This wasn't "don't kill them 'cause they're our brethren" type of mission, this was "destroy the enemy at all cost" type of mission.

Yes, Optimus had faced similar thing in G1 cartoon and let them live, and in return the Decepticons conquered Cybertron, hijacked their shuttle and killed everyone in it, catastrophically attacked their city on Earth and during battle royale Megatron fatally wounded Optimus (who returned favor), and thus a new leader would become Rodimus Prime. But had Prime killed Megatron earlier, none of this wouldn't have happened.

I idolize Optimus Prime from all series I have seen him in. There is no one like him, and there won't be anyone like Optimus. But while freedom is the right of all sentient beings, Justice must be served to all beings.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby shamone » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:28 pm

dylansdad wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

Yeah, totally agree. The Optimus I know & admire would never kill an injured,unarmed foe. This movie sucks bad & has perverted all that was good about Transformers.


i agree to an extent. The killing wounded injured unarmed combatants is not the actions of a hero
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:38 pm

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shamone wrote:
dylansdad wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

Yeah, totally agree. The Optimus I know & admire would never kill an injured,unarmed foe. This movie sucks bad & has perverted all that was good about Transformers.


i agree to an extent. The killing wounded injured unarmed combatants is not the actions of a hero


A hero is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes for the great or good. Not someone who lets huge threats escape or live.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby shamone » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:42 pm

SlyTF1 wrote:
shamone wrote:
dylansdad wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

Yeah, totally agree. The Optimus I know & admire would never kill an injured,unarmed foe. This movie sucks bad & has perverted all that was good about Transformers.


i agree to an extent. The killing wounded injured unarmed combatants is not the actions of a hero


A hero is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes for the great or good. Not someone who lets huge threats escape or live.


thats one interpretation
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:39 pm

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dylansdad wrote:This movie sucks bad & has perverted all that was good about Transformers.


You have admitted you know very little about Transformers outside the G1 toon.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:22 am

@jetoptimus23: the plumed serpent believes the decepticons are the heroes, i believe that the decepticons are evil yet still have to be given rights like everybody else. big difference. one of the problems with the trilogy is that they keep contradicting each other. the first movie originally has megatron go after the allspark and if he had succeeded he probably would've left because at that time there were no earth machines to turn into an army(meaning that earth had no value for megatron at that point). then the second movie suddenly shows that they've got a big machine in egypt(suddenly the earth is important to the transformers) then the third has apparently the allspark was sent here on purpose (as oppossed to being sent here by accident) with help from a prime who is in league with megatron (and by default, the fallen who is in his couch waiting for the primes to die out).

if some snot nosed punks can keep a giant whale thingy in their pocket via a spherical container, why not giant robots?

@Evil_the-nub: so why can't the autobots work with the humans in incarcerating beaten/surrendering decepticons...wing dagger and padlock are jailers after all.

@dinojack: you're correct about the lack of onscreen character development, the first movie practically implies that optimus was holding back (via insisting on a suicide plan rather than fight megatron) then the sequels have him being able to kick everyone's collective skidplates. the big question for me is why it took earth and the humans for him to be more aggresive?

@Biddybot: isn't it strange that since the allspark was the cause of the war (according to the first movie) won't it's loss signal that the war is over or has the killing gone long enough that there has to be a winner to justify all the loses? optimus could've reasoned that since the allspark is gone that means their species is doomed because they can't make anymore, would they risk extinction(to keep on fighting) over preservation?(though the hatchlings from the sequel kinda renders the allspark useless as the only means of reproduction). though in ROTF the autobots and nest are hunting decepticons and apparently good at it, maybe a sadistic streak in him got lit up seeing that despite the loss of the allspark, the decepticons are coming to earth for no good reason (seeing that it took the fallen's big broadcast of 2009 to blow the lid that aliens walk amongst us, one would think the decepticons are not too aggresive/blatant in their actions to blow their cover). if you add your theory about jetfire's parts heightening optimus' aggression, can one think optimus is in a power trip?

the scary part about optimus putting decepticons in the same class as "sick, instinct-driven, non-thinking animals" is has optimus subscribed to the same train of thought as his enemies?

@5150 cruiser: the problem about the 'cons started the war' is that who presented that argument to the humans? the autobots. and "Freedom is everyones right in the way that someone else does not have the right to take that freedom away" so optimus not giving a choice to a injured decepticon is exempt from that? heck did he asked for their unconditional surrender? no, he wanted them all dead and would probably hunted them all down even the ones off earth.

@red 50: so demolishor's size is excuse enough to kill him? he could've caused a lot more damage fighting yet he ran. they reduced him into a head (easy enough to incarcerate and maintain) but they never intended for him to live seeing instead of "do you yield?" optimus says "any last words?".
about the troops: one of my biggest complaints about nearly every tf series is the flimsy reasoning about the decepticons being evil, basically they just are.

and you're right justice must be served but who would be more credible serving it? superman or justice lord superman? because what would happen to human collaborators? would he deem them the same justice he'd dispense to the decepticons?
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby TulioDude » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:23 pm

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shamone wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
shamone wrote:
dylansdad wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

Yeah, totally agree. The Optimus I know & admire would never kill an injured,unarmed foe. This movie sucks bad & has perverted all that was good about Transformers.


i agree to an extent. The killing wounded injured unarmed combatants is not the actions of a hero


A hero is someone who is willing to do whatever it takes for the great or good. Not someone who lets huge threats escape or live.


thats one interpretation



In a war,they fight for survival because the Decepticons have no mercy,they dont care to kill all the Autobots or humans.IF they come back they might kill their friends.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby dash23 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:24 am

Typical "the good always prevail against evil" thus giving Optimus Prime the "freedom" to kill them all...Plus that's what most movie goers want to see. :)
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby F Prime » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:41 am

Motto: "math...thrash...Math....Thrash...MATH....THRASH..."
Weapon: No Weapon
I always interpreted Prime's status a little differently. I took him to mean that each sentient species has the right to obtain Freedom. He never violates that. The Decepticons had freedom to choose their actions; that freedom does not excuse them from consequences. Thus I had no problem with his killing of Decepticons.

I wouldn't want G1 Prime doing that....but this is not G1 Prime in the same way that the Optimus in Animated is not G1 Prime. Personally, I think variety adds flavor and I am glad that every single Prime portrayed is not G1 Prime.
Pi is exactly 3!
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Fuzor
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #98 - Combiner Wars
Twincast / Podcast #98:
"Combiner Wars"
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Posted: Thursday, August 14th, 2014