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freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:13 am

so is that why optimus never leaves any transformer he fights to live? if only he let demolishor lived to find out more about the fallen, then he could've stopped a majority of the events on RotF from happening andhe could've also just beat the crap out of megatron and sentinel then have them locked up, but then he had to violate his own rule.


then again seeing an optimus giving no quarter is one of the movies strong points (no "out of the way hot rod' scenes)
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Joker'sRequiem » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:57 am

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Optimus Primevil wrote:if only he let demolishor lived to find out more about the fallen, then he could've stopped a majority of the events on RotF from happening

That is assuming that Demolishor was privy to all of the details of the Fallen and Megatron's plans for Earth. For all the audience knows, he knows nothing more than "The Fallen shall rise again". I always say him as more of a messenger, who's purpose was to deliver an ominous warning. Any extent of his knowledge about the actual plan that the Fallen and Megatron execute later isn't really much beyond speculation.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and he could've also just beat the crap out of megatron and sentinel then have them locked up, but then he had to violate his own rule.

Where would he lock them up? What country would want to undertake the responsibility and national security risk of housing intergalactic war criminals? And who would be responsible for paying for, funding, and maintaining the facility? The size that would be necessary to house Megatron and Sentinel alone would have been a very large undertaking in terms of construction, and the size you would need to house numerous Decepticon prisoners is an even greater, more expensive undertaking for any nation. And ultimately, what would stop the Decepticons from working to free those captured, or the prisoners themselves from escaping and starting the conflict all over again.

Megatron has only one goal: The utter extermination and/or enslavement of the human race. That is the end result of his attempts to rebuild Cybertron. The moment he chose to attempt to use the All-Spark to rebuild an army of Decepticons and restart the war he lost his right to freedom. The moment he chose to use a sun harvester to destroy our sun, and thus ALL SENTIENT LIFE ON OUR PLANET he lost his right to freedom. And the moment he and Sentinel tried to enslave the entire human race to be used as slave labor he lost his right to freedom. He and the Decepticons chose their path to their goal, and in the end, Optimus chose to sacrifice the freedom of the few to ensure the freedom of the many.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby SlyTF1 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:33 am

Motto: "Destruction is the ultimate freedom."
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Because they all threatened freedom. When someone defies freedom, Optimus gets pissed, and when he gets pissed he kills those who oppose freedom.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby shamone » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:49 am

yeah sure freedom isnt free, you gotta thrown in your buck o'five
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:24 pm

Joker'sRequiem wrote:That is assuming that Demolishor was privy to all of the details of the Fallen and Megatron's plans for Earth. For all the audience knows, he knows nothing more than "The Fallen shall rise again". I always say him as more of a messenger, who's purpose was to deliver an ominous warning. Any extent of his knowledge about the actual plan that the Fallen and Megatron execute later isn't really much beyond speculation.


well... if he let his live long enough to 'ask' then we could've been sure now would we?

Joker'sRequiem wrote:Where would he lock them up? What country would want to undertake the responsibility and national security risk of housing intergalactic war criminals? And who would be responsible for paying for, funding, and maintaining the facility? The size that would be necessary to house Megatron and Sentinel alone would have been a very large undertaking in terms of construction, and the size you would need to house numerous Decepticon prisoners is an even greater, more expensive undertaking for any nation. And ultimately, what would stop the Decepticons from working to free those captured, or the prisoners themselves from escaping and starting the conflict all over again.

Megatron has only one goal: The utter extermination and/or enslavement of the human race. That is the end result of his attempts to rebuild Cybertron. The moment he chose to attempt to use the All-Spark to rebuild an army of Decepticons and restart the war he lost his right to freedom. The moment he chose to use a sun harvester to destroy our sun, and thus ALL SENTIENT LIFE ON OUR PLANET he lost his right to freedom. And the moment he and Sentinel tried to enslave the entire human race to be used as slave labor he lost his right to freedom. He and the Decepticons chose their path to their goal, and in the end, Optimus chose to sacrifice the freedom of the few to ensure the freedom of the many.


don't the autobots have any 'holding facilities' on cybertron?

and what makes megatron (and sentinel) any different from the roman and british empires who conquered and enslaved yet history sings praises of their accomplishments? then again megatron would be more alike with chinggis khan and history speaks more of his brutality than his accomplishments.


in the dark horse star wars mini-series crimson empire, the main baddie carnor jax was wanted captured alive by the rebellion because of all his knowledge of the empire. with him they could end the war in a matter of months (as opposed to years). even though megatron and sentinel were off-planet for millenia, they still have forces loyal to them and by killing them off, those forces would've probably gone underground and engage in hit-and-run tactics. a skilled tactician could've used them (megatron and sentinel) as bait to draw those forces into a trap.

but then again, they are sentient and thus have the right to freedom
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby NatsumeRyu » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:49 pm

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After watching all three films in one day, I came to the realization that Prime seems to have given up most of his hope for his own race, even from the get go of the first film, like how he would rather get rid of the cube at any cost (IE his own life is the greatest he can offer without beginning to involve others). It starts when Bumblebee is captured and Prime's refusing to rescue him because "there's no way to free Bumblebee without harming the humans." From there he defends the human race in speaking to the other Autobots because we're "primitive."
It gets reinforced in the second film when he's revived.

It looks a lot like he's molding and trying desperately to protect the human race from what happened to the Cybertronians.
From that perspective, suddenly human life (or any form of life he deems more redeemable than his own race's) has more value than his brothers. :(
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Phategod1 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:11 am

The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Powermaster Jazz » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:11 am

He did set them free....to the afterlife.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:29 am

Powermaster Jazz wrote:He did set them free....to the afterlife.



so basically optimus is darkseid? in case no one gets it, the worst thing darkseid can do to you is send you into an eternal reincarnation loop, with the next life being more crap-@$$ than the last. the best thing he can do to you is a quick death.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Superion12345 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:38 am

Optimus Primevil wrote:so is that why optimus never leaves any transformer he fights to live? if only he let demolishor lived to find out more about the fallen, then he could've stopped a majority of the events on RotF from happening andhe could've also just beat the crap out of megatron and sentinel then have them locked up, but then he had to violate his own rule.

then again seeing an optimus giving no quarter is one of the movies strong points (no "out of the way hot rod' scenes)


well, the autobots aren't living in freedom....

NatsumeRyu wrote:After watching all three films in one day, I came to the realization that Prime seems to have given up most of his hope for his own race, even from the get go of the first film, like how he would rather get rid of the cube at any cost (IE his own life is the greatest he can offer without beginning to involve others). It starts when Bumblebee is captured and Prime's refusing to rescue him because "there's no way to free Bumblebee without harming the humans." From there he defends the human race in speaking to the other Autobots because we're "primitive."
It gets reinforced in the second film when he's revived.

It looks a lot like he's molding and trying desperately to protect the human race from what happened to the Cybertronians.
From that perspective, suddenly human life (or any form of life he deems more redeemable than his own race's) has more value than his brothers. :(


Cybertronians are endangered race but he cares. Optimus Prime is the leader and he decides their fate.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:53 am

he's leader of one FACTION, not all...then again that'll be a shout-out to armada optimus prime who declared that he's the leader of all transformers.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Superion12345 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:07 am

Optimus Primevil wrote:he's leader of one FACTION, not all...then again that'll be a shout-out to armada optimus prime who declared that he's the leader of all transformers.

The other FACTION is without leadership. :)
yea, he could declare the leader of all transformers but hard to tell if the remaining decepticons would follow his lead or just simply wait for a new decepticon leader.
but they can just go haywire because they have nothing to lose... :)
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:15 am

possible substitute leaders are busy 'debating' who should lead while inside a space transport. that or whoever's fourth in command
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby twiztid_soundwave » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:54 pm

Motto: ""Why do I keep seeing you in my dreams Optimus? Are you trying to tell me I'm not the leader you were? I already know that."---Rodimus"
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Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

I couldn't have said this better myself.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby SlyTF1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:59 pm

Motto: "Destruction is the ultimate freedom."
Weapon: Plasma Beam Rifle
twiztid_soundwave wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.

I couldn't have said this better myself.


Too bad Bay didn't write the movie. And who gives a damn about honor? Either way they're going to die.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby twiztid_soundwave » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Motto: ""Why do I keep seeing you in my dreams Optimus? Are you trying to tell me I'm not the leader you were? I already know that."---Rodimus"
Weapon: Rapid-Fire Energy Pulse Cannon
The thing that gets me, is that people understate the power the director has in regards to re-writes. If something goes on that the director didn't like, he has, full right to revise, and change it if he wishes, See Richard Donner's superman, their were many things cut, and changed by the directors wants. Bay is given FAR too little negativity where people use the writers as an excuse for bad character representation

But as this is, and always was, HIS vision, His Prime is just that, Bay's view of what Prime should do, and what he should be, taking nothing g1 or anything in regard. Hence, why he gets bashed for it
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:56 pm

Phategod1 wrote:The Long and short of it is Bay Never understood the character of Optimus. Bay made him your typical Kill everything hero. The G1 Optimus would never Kill a defenseless opponent, There is no honor in that. Optimus killing with cheap one liners is not Optimus at all.


i think it would've been nice if michael patterned his optimus with toki from fist of the northstar, practically the most saintly figure in a crap sack world full of pillaging (strangely not much raping) and violence.

he'll still kill you but he does it humanely (triggering all the pleasure receptors in your body while it's contorting in ways the body should not be able to do).
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:00 pm

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Optimus Primevil wrote: don't the autobots have any 'holding facilities' on cybertron?


Maybe. But there not on Cybertron. There on earth.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and what makes megatron (and sentinel) any different from the roman and british empires who conquered and enslaved yet history sings praises of their accomplishments? then again megatron would be more alike with chinggis khan and history speaks more of his brutality than his accomplishments.?


Um, no history does not praise slavery as their acomplishments. Don't know who is teaching you history, but i'd switch classes.


Optimus Primevil wrote: in the dark horse star wars mini-series crimson empire, the main baddie carnor jax was wanted captured alive by the rebellion because of all his knowledge of the empire. with him they could end the war in a matter of months (as opposed to years). even though megatron and sentinel were off-planet for millenia, they still have forces loyal to them and by killing them off, those forces would've probably gone underground and engage in hit-and-run tactics. a skilled tactician could've used them (megatron and sentinel) as bait to draw those forces into a trap.


Again, your asuming that there is a facility large and strong enough to house them. And even if that were the case, you run the risk of the enemy forces staging a rescue and putting more lives in danger. Sentinel Proved that he was as strong, aif not stronger than Optimus. Atempting to hold him would have been to high of a risk. And concidering both Megs and Sentinel's ideal were to destroy/enslave the human race and that they can potentially lie for thousands of years, holding them captive wasn't feasible from logical stand point.

Optimus Primevil wrote:but then again, they are sentient and thus have the right to freedom


So its their right for freedom, but it it ok for them to take our freedom away? Sentinel and Megatron wanted to use Humans as slave labor, clean us dry of natural resources and were responisble for not only Autobot deaths, but hundreds of human deaths as well. Yet you believe they should still have the rights of freedom? Really?



twiztid_soundwave wrote:The thing that gets me, is that people understate the power the director has in regards to re-writes. If something goes on that the director didn't like, he has, full right to revise, and change it if he wishes, See Richard Donner's superman, their were many things cut, and changed by the directors wants. Bay is given FAR too little negativity where people use the writers as an excuse for bad character representation

But as this is, and always was, HIS vision, His Prime is just that, Bay's view of what Prime should do, and what he should be, taking nothing g1 or anything in regard. Hence, why he gets bashed for it


Actually, Prime was more "G1" in the first TF movie, but ya know what? People did nothing but bitch and complain on how much of a pussy he was getting the crap beaten out of him by Megatron. So Bay & Co. responded by making him the bad ass he should be. But again, people still bitched and complained that he to violent. So please don't give this garbage that this Prime is solely based on "Bay's vision", cause that is wrong. And please get over the G1 one referenaces. This is not G1, and even when the reboot comes in several years, don't expect it to be based off G1 either.

You say this is his vision and want to put it all on him. Where do you fit Hasbro's responisblity in all of this? They own the rights to TF. Not Bay. Its there product thats being represented. Not Bay's. They have the final say on what goes. Cause in the end, there one of the main parties that are highering him to represent thier product. So how about pointing your anger/fustration on the party the truly calls the shots.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:05 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:
Optimus Primevil wrote: don't the autobots have any 'holding facilities' on cybertron?


5150 Cruiser wrote:Maybe. But there not on Cybertron. There on earth.


so what's stopping them to go back or is such a hell-hole that optimus doesn't want to go back? probably because based on the ending of the first movie he basically tells them to go to earth.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and what makes megatron (and sentinel) any different from the roman and british empires who conquered and enslaved yet history sings praises of their accomplishments? then again megatron would be more alike with chinggis khan and history speaks more of his brutality than his accomplishments.?


5150 Cruiser wrote: Um, no history does not praise slavery as their acomplishments. Don't know who is teaching you history, but i'd switch classes.


history class doesn't tell it that...directly, it's mostly pop media like movies(like in gladiator where the conquering romans are up against the celts. the celts are portrayed as savage barbarians who beheaded a roman officer and sent the corpse on a horse, by default the civilized romans look like the good guys) and tv shows. then again hitler was basing his third reich on the roman empire and whatever they did he tried to make it even better (one of his plans was to make a Colosseum in berlin that is three times or so bigger than the original)
Optimus Primevil wrote: in the dark horse star wars mini-series crimson empire, the main baddie carnor jax was wanted captured alive by the rebellion because of all his knowledge of the empire. with him they could end the war in a matter of months (as opposed to years). even though megatron and sentinel were off-planet for millenia, they still have forces loyal to them and by killing them off, those forces would've probably gone underground and engage in hit-and-run tactics. a skilled tactician could've used them (megatron and sentinel) as bait to draw those forces into a trap.


5150 Cruiser wrote: Again, your asuming that there is a facility large and strong enough to house them. And even if that were the case, you run the risk of the enemy forces staging a rescue and putting more lives in danger. Sentinel Proved that he was as strong, aif not stronger than Optimus. Atempting to hold him would have been to high of a risk. And concidering both Megs and Sentinel's ideal were to destroy/enslave the human race and that they can potentially lie for thousands of years, holding them captive wasn't feasible from logical stand point.


you even read the part about the using them as bait for a trap?

Optimus Primevil wrote:but then again, they are sentient and thus have the right to freedom


5150 Cruiser wrote:So its their right for freedom, but it it ok for them to take our freedom away? Sentinel and Megatron wanted to use Humans as slave labor, clean us dry of natural resources and were responisble for not only Autobot deaths, but hundreds of human deaths as well. Yet you believe they should still have the rights of freedom? Really?

they're sentient are they? so by optimus' logic they are entitled to freedom...hence why he kills them all instead(according to the movies).
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby shamone » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:51 am

twiztid_soundwave wrote:The thing that gets me, is that people understate the power the director has in regards to re-writes. If something goes on that the director didn't like, he has, full right to revise, and change it if he wishes, See Richard Donner's superman, their were many things cut, and changed by the directors wants. Bay is given FAR too little negativity where people use the writers as an excuse for bad character representation

But as this is, and always was, HIS vision, His Prime is just that, Bay's view of what Prime should do, and what he should be, taking nothing g1 or anything in regard. Hence, why he gets bashed for it


exactly

this this this
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:11 pm

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Optimus Primevil wrote: so what's stopping them to go back or is such a hell-hole that optimus doesn't want to go back? probably because based on the ending of the first movie he basically tells them to go to earth.


Yes. The planet is basicly destroyed. This was explained in the first movie.

Optimus Primevil wrote: you even read the part about the using them as bait for a trap?).


Yes, but again, how do you plan on
1.- Housing them
2.- You run a very high risk more lives being put in danger in an attempted decepticon rescue.
3.- now you must create a facility that is not large enough, and strong enough to house all the captured decepticons.

Optimus Primevil wrote:they're sentient are they? so by optimus' logic they are entitled to freedom...hence why he kills them all instead(according to the movies).



Your reading his line out of context. In the first movie Ironhide asks..
"Why are we fighting to protect the humans? There such a primitive race." Optimus answer was.."Freedom is the right of all seintient beings". Meaning just because there not as advanced as we are does not mean they don't have the right to be free. The decepticons are planning to take our freedom and chocies away from us. That is not cool under Optimus watch.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:19 pm

so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:12 pm

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Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?


When did we disect any advance beings? If your referring to megatron we never decected him.

But i'll ask again, how do you plan on holding any decpticon prisoners?
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby Optimus Primevil » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:09 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:
Optimus Primevil wrote:so it's ok for the humans to capture and dissect advanced beings and not the other way around?


When did we disect any advance beings? If your referring to megatron we never decected him.

But i'll ask again, how do you plan on holding any decpticon prisoners?



chop off zee limbs, surround the area with earth's toxic waste(well if cybertron's such a hell hole now then prime won't object to the earth's governments to use it as a dumping ground now would he?) then blow off aging earth nukes when someone gets on the perimeter.

harsh, yes but movie prime's all ready ruthless.

megatron was being picked off one piece at a time because he's the only specimen sector 7 had at the time. bumblebee's the one they'd tear open to see what's ticking.
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Re: freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

Postby rich prime » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:25 am

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Weapon: Adhesion Rifle
5150 Cruiser wrote:
Optimus Primevil wrote: don't the autobots have any 'holding facilities' on cybertron?


Maybe. But there not on Cybertron. There on earth.

Optimus Primevil wrote:and what makes megatron (and sentinel) any different from the roman and british empires who conquered and enslaved yet history sings praises of their accomplishments? then again megatron would be more alike with chinggis khan and history speaks more of his brutality than his accomplishments.?


Um, no history does not praise slavery as their acomplishments. Don't know who is teaching you history, but i'd switch classes.


Optimus Primevil wrote: in the dark horse star wars mini-series crimson empire, the main baddie carnor jax was wanted captured alive by the rebellion because of all his knowledge of the empire. with him they could end the war in a matter of months (as opposed to years). even though megatron and sentinel were off-planet for millenia, they still have forces loyal to them and by killing them off, those forces would've probably gone underground and engage in hit-and-run tactics. a skilled tactician could've used them (megatron and sentinel) as bait to draw those forces into a trap.


Again, your asuming that there is a facility large and strong enough to house them. And even if that were the case, you run the risk of the enemy forces staging a rescue and putting more lives in danger. Sentinel Proved that he was as strong, aif not stronger than Optimus. Atempting to hold him would have been to high of a risk. And concidering both Megs and Sentinel's ideal were to destroy/enslave the human race and that they can potentially lie for thousands of years, holding them captive wasn't feasible from logical stand point.

Optimus Primevil wrote:but then again, they are sentient and thus have the right to freedom


So its their right for freedom, but it it ok for them to take our freedom away? Sentinel and Megatron wanted to use Humans as slave labor, clean us dry of natural resources and were responisble for not only Autobot deaths, but hundreds of human deaths as well. Yet you believe they should still have the rights of freedom? Really?



twiztid_soundwave wrote:The thing that gets me, is that people understate the power the director has in regards to re-writes. If something goes on that the director didn't like, he has, full right to revise, and change it if he wishes, See Richard Donner's superman, their were many things cut, and changed by the directors wants. Bay is given FAR too little negativity where people use the writers as an excuse for bad character representation

But as this is, and always was, HIS vision, His Prime is just that, Bay's view of what Prime should do, and what he should be, taking nothing g1 or anything in regard. Hence, why he gets bashed for it


Actually, Prime was more "G1" in the first TF movie, but ya know what? People did nothing but bitch and complain on how much of a pussy he was getting the crap beaten out of him by Megatron. So Bay & Co. responded by making him the bad ass he should be. But again, people still bitched and complained that he to violent. So please don't give this garbage that this Prime is solely based on "Bay's vision", cause that is wrong. And please get over the G1 one referenaces. This is not G1, and even when the reboot comes in several years, don't expect it to be based off G1 either.

You say this is his vision and want to put it all on him. Where do you fit Hasbro's responisblity in all of this? They own the rights to TF. Not Bay. Its there product thats being represented. Not Bay's. They have the final say on what goes. Cause in the end, there one of the main parties that are highering him to represent thier product. So how about pointing your anger/fustration on the party the truly calls the shots.[/
[quote]


This This This

I liked bay version of prime
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #96 - Age of Extinction
Twincast / Podcast #96:
"Age of Extinction"
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Posted: Monday, July 7th, 2014