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Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Look one thing We always have to remember is that beside every thing own is made in sweat shops, in China, India, Taiwan and all that is that the factors comply to the countries health and safety regulations for factories not saying that Hasbro doesn't have part in it.

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

For one, I already said my economics were flawed, I am not a professor, and yes, I know what profit is, companies were doing just fine making a profit and employing people at a decent wage when Clinton was president, anyone who says different knows crap about politics nay reality, the only reason so much is manufactured overseas is so companies can make their bottom line look better for stockholders, you think they really care about delivering a product to you at a reasonable price? NO. Just what kind of job do you hold? I am not a flaming liberal, but neither am I a narrow minded conservative. There are many companies that could move jobs back over here and make money, they just refuse to. We all know companies don't get capital from thin air, they get it from the taxpayers in the form of bailouts, slush funds, etc. What is your economic theory, pay everyone that works on a production line two cents an hour so only the elite and rich can afford what someone else had to sweat and possibly bleed to produce? And yes if a company is only producing in a third world country, they are not investing crap back into the business. You do realize corporate profits are at an all time high, yet there are few and far between jobs and wages have been stagnant for the last 15 years. In fact wages have gone down in some cases due to some factories laying off permanent employees, only to bring them back through a temp service at a reduced wage.

Deszaras1979 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

For one, I already said my economics were flawed, I am not a professor, and yes, I know what profit is, companies were doing just fine making a profit and employing people at a decent wage when Clinton was president, anyone who says different knows crap about politics nay reality, the only reason so much is manufactured overseas is so companies can make their bottom line look better for stockholders, you think they really care about delivering a product to you at a reasonable price? NO. Just what kind of job do you hold? I am not a flaming liberal, but neither am I a narrow minded conservative. There are many companies that could move jobs back over here and make money, they just refuse to. We all know companies don't get capital from thin air, they get it from the taxpayers in the form of bailouts, slush funds, etc. What is your economic theory, pay everyone that works on a production line two cents an hour so only the elite and rich can afford what someone else had to sweat and possibly bleed to produce? And yes if a company is only producing in a third world country, they are not investing crap back into the business. You do realize corporate profits are at an all time high, yet there are few and far between jobs and wages have been stagnant for the last 15 years. In fact wages have gone down in some cases due to some factories laying off permanent employees, only to bring them back through a temp service at a reduced wage.

I'm a student and economics is a part of my subject.

I never said that companies weren't doing fine during Clinton, I also never said that they cared about delivering a quality product.

I simply told you have flawed your "example" was, also, if you knew it was flawed, then why the hell did you post it as an example in the first place?

They are companies and care about their bottom line, that and growing further, that is all companies care about. And the cheaper they can produce and sell their product, the more money they can make since more people can afford it and are more willing to buy it.

They are investing money in their businesses, they want to grow and reach more customers, in business terms increasing your capital and company size is investing in the business.

Also you need to stop blaming companies for everything, only large and important companies that employ a whole lot of people get bailouts so that they can keep as much of their work force as possible. It's our every fault for wanting everything cheaper than it should be and not thinking in long-term investments anymore. We want the best now, for cheap, and we want to replace it as soon as the never "better" version comes along.

We're currently living in an age of consumption, extreme consumption what used to be a long-term investment and was bought to last as long as possible, has become a cheap fashion accessory to be replaced once it's gone out of fashion.

Companies have tasted the "high-life", as in they earn more than ever due to the general public buying and buying and buying and buying, if everything went back to normal, we would take greater care of the money we spent and would keep our ipads longer, instead of getting rid of them once the new model comes out. Companies would earn less than now, which they just cannot accept anymore.

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:

Deszaras1979 wrote:Apple says if the ipad were produced in America it would be unaffordable, this is BS, yeah it would cost more, but they would have to pay their workers a decent wage and that is not bad, let's look at the logistics of this, Apple moves manufacturing to America, hires x amount of people to produce the ipad, prices of the ipad goes up, however; if wages for the production of ipad are raised to coincide with increase in retail price, let's say the ipad doubles it's retail price to 1000.00 for a base model, the linemen are making 15 to 20 an hour working 40 to 50 hours a week, at 15 an hour times 40 hours a week times 4 weeks a month, thats $2400 a month, American workers could afford a base model ipad and where I live, still be able to pay there bills and have money left over, instead companies send jobs over seas, americans lose jobs, income, etc, chinese people are paid pennies on the dollar, inferior products are made and everyone loses out in the end. Do you think a chinese worker could afford a base model ipad now? Apple pockets all the money, the workers get shiite, and we get crappy products. I know my economics are flawed in the above example, so don't crucify me on it, but this profit before people mentality is why we are in a recession/depression depending on where you live.

Do you know what the word profit means?
It means the money that is left after all the investments have been earned back, including wages.
If the retail price goes up due to Apple having to pay higher wages, guess what would happen if they increased their wages even further. You guessed it the iPAd would be even more expensive.

Companies don't get the money to pay their workers from thin air, they have to earn it first.

If someone used your example we would have an even higher inflation than now.

For one, I already said my economics were flawed, I am not a professor, and yes, I know what profit is, companies were doing just fine making a profit and employing people at a decent wage when Clinton was president, anyone who says different knows crap about politics nay reality, the only reason so much is manufactured overseas is so companies can make their bottom line look better for stockholders, you think they really care about delivering a product to you at a reasonable price? NO. Just what kind of job do you hold? I am not a flaming liberal, but neither am I a narrow minded conservative. There are many companies that could move jobs back over here and make money, they just refuse to. We all know companies don't get capital from thin air, they get it from the taxpayers in the form of bailouts, slush funds, etc. What is your economic theory, pay everyone that works on a production line two cents an hour so only the elite and rich can afford what someone else had to sweat and possibly bleed to produce? And yes if a company is only producing in a third world country, they are not investing crap back into the business. You do realize corporate profits are at an all time high, yet there are few and far between jobs and wages have been stagnant for the last 15 years. In fact wages have gone down in some cases due to some factories laying off permanent employees, only to bring them back through a temp service at a reduced wage.

I'm a student and economics is a part of my subject.

I never said that companies weren't doing fine during Clinton, I also never said that they cared about delivering a quality product.

I simply told you have flawed your "example" was, also, if you knew it was flawed, then why the hell did you post it as an example in the first place?

They are companies and care about their bottom line, that and growing further, that is all companies care about. And the cheaper they can produce and sell their product, the more money they can make since more people can afford it and are more willing to buy it.

They are investing money in their businesses, they want to grow and reach more customers, in business terms increasing your capital and company size is investing in the business.

Also you need to stop blaming companies for everything, only large and important companies that employ a whole lot of people get bailouts so that they can keep as much of their work force as possible. It's our every fault for wanting everything cheaper than it should be and not thinking in long-term investments anymore. We want the best now, for cheap, and we want to replace it as soon as the never "better" version comes along.

We're currently living in an age of consumption, extreme consumption what used to be a long-term investment and was bought to last as long as possible, has become a cheap fashion accessory to be replaced once it's gone out of fashion.

Companies have tasted the "high-life", as in they earn more than ever due to the general public buying and buying and buying and buying, if everything went back to normal, we would take greater care of the money we spent and would keep our ipads longer, instead of getting rid of them once the new model comes out. Companies would earn less than now, which they just cannot accept anymore.

The flaw in your example is that as companies hire people at reduced wages, outsource jobs overseas, the cost of living has gone up and disposable income among the poor and middle class is non-existent. Thus in the long run the poor and middle class in America will be living day to day while only the wealthy can afford anything not considered an essential to survive in the world today. Our economy is surviving on borrowed income, the govt. is in debt to other countries, a lot of the people are in debt to the credit card companies or banks, and there are no good jobs available, working at McDonald's doesn't cut it. I am glad you are a student, it is always good to further your education. However, it sounds to me like all your knowledge of the workforce comes from a book, I have been working since the mid nineties and things have never been as bad as they are now, I do not just blame the companies, our corrupt federal officials and the banks have to assume a large amount of responsibilty as well, btw, I have an AS in computer programming, I graduated with a 3.97 gpa in 2010, and am currently going for an AS in networking and servicing, I finished my first semester with straight A's. Jobs are few and far between in either field right now in my area, which is why I plan to move when I finish. You need to look beyond the books though, where I live used to be a mecca for furniture manufacturing but more and more plants are closing everyday, I know people who have worked at places for 15 years or more and are now having to struggle because their job was outsourced or they were replaced by temp workers who make way less than their full-time counterparts. I still stand by my opinion that profit over people will be the downfall of the whole damn economic system. There is no equilibrium right now. And it's not getting any better. I am very proud of my book knowledge, but the real world is a different place. p.s. I have not taken an economics class, though I did take an accounting class. Your example about earning back your investment is good if your talking about an upstart or a small business, but these companies that pay their CEOs 100 mil plus a year?

Deszaras1979 wrote:The flaw in your example is that as companies hire people at reduced wages, outsource jobs overseas, the cost of living has gone up and disposable income among the poor and middle class is non-existent. Thus in the long run the poor and middle class in America will be living day to day while only the wealthy can afford anything not considered an essential to survive in the world today.

That's not a flaw in my example, it's a flaw in the thinking of the economy and those working with it. Nothing can grow continuously and in unlimited numbers.
However, you must keep in mind that these companies are multinationals, and also sell their products in the companies they produce, believe it or not, but China is currently the biggest electronics market in the world.
Companies are not loyal to a single country, only to the one where they make the biggest amount of money.

Our economy is surviving on borrowed income, the govt. is in debt to other countries, a lot of the people are in debt to the credit card companies or banks, and there are no good jobs available, working at McDonald's doesn't cut it.

Every country is in debt to other countries and has stakes in them, it's part of the reason why the super powers don't rage war against each other, they're all dependent on each other. That's also why China won't go and start a war with the US, if they did, the US would pull it's stuff back and the Chinese economy would look like a dead horse that's been beaten to much.

I am glad you are a student, it is always good to further your education. However, it sounds to me like all your knowledge of the workforce comes from a book, I have been working since the mid nineties and things have never been as bad as they are now, I do not just blame the companies, our corrupt federal officials and the banks have to assume a large amount of responsibilty as well, btw, I have an AS in computer programming, I graduated with a 3.97 gpa in 2010, and am currently going for an AS in networking and servicing, I finished my first semester with straight A's. Jobs are few and far between in either field right now in my area, which is why I plan to move when I finish. You need to look beyond the books though, where I live used to be a mecca for furniture manufacturing but more and more plants are closing everyday, I know people who have worked at places for 15 years or more and are now having to struggle because their job was outsourced or they were replaced by temp workers who make way less than their full-time counterparts. I still stand by my opinion that profit over people will be the downfall of the whole damn economic system. There is no equilibrium right now.

My dad works at a company that's been in the process of moving production away from Germany to east Europe for the past few years due to the labour being cheaper there, believe me I know what goes down in the "real world". He even had to work under 5 different bosses for a time, one of them only stayed for about a month before being fired and replaced again.
Look at Siemens, their company image is that of a "family company", they even offered one of my former class mates a high paying job training due to his dad being a bit of a big deal in the company, he's currently with his girlfriend in a 3000 dollar hotel room in Dubai.

Part of the reason I'm still studying is due to my original field no-longer being relevant, now I'm studying to be a translator and luckily that's one of the few jobs that are still in high demand over here, due to there being less translators than stuff to translate.

And it's not getting any better. I am very proud of my book knowledge, but the real world is a different place. p.s. I have not taken an economics class, though I did take an accounting class. Your example about earning back your investment is good if your talking about an upstart or a small business, but these companies that pay their CEOs 100 mil plus a year?

Yes for them it's still a good model. A CEO who earns that much, earns that much for a reason.
He doesn't get to decide how much he earns, unless he's just that good. A CEO has the responsibility to
keep the company growing
keep the stockholders happy
increase the company's value
and secure the jobs for the work force
If he f**ks up, everyone looses their jobs and investments.
I once had to translate an interview with Maurice Lévy the current CEO of the Publicis Groupe, which thought me a lot about the reasons behind large pay checks.

And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

5150 Cruiser wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:And all this will stay as is, unless the Occupy Wall Street movement is heard and gets their way. Which I hope it will.

The "Occupy" movement is a bunch of garbage. A bunch of self righious people who think the world is owed to them. Its steady loosing steam as well as public support and I for one, and thankfull.

Why, what's wrong with what they say?