Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Guess the big boxed sets aren't selling well... if they ever were.

Still, between these and the blind packs and the gestalts, Kre-O has some interesting stuff and a good variety in the product. It's a niche audience who'll buy these, but I'll bet they sell better than the current crop.

Might get OP and Soundwave. Old collector's habits...

VioMeTriX wrote:Nice sarcasm there. but i agree with JOP and its what ive been saying, unless we as fandom and more importantly money spending shoppers do something about this the trend downward will continue.

There is no downward trend. This is branching out. There are still two simultaneous lines of pure Transformers for you to choose from. Three if you include the plethora of residual DOTM. If you don't like any of the main lines, go back and fill in some old gaps in your collection from lines you did like while you wait for something new that you like to hit retail. Find another hobby. Do something productive. Don't just sit around and mope because this brand isn't the same as it was however many years ago. Companies change, and not always in the way we like them to. That's just life.

how do we make a change? stop buying the sub par junk and stick with the better stuff we want. bot shots, the new bionical-ish crap, the smaller deluxes, the over priced voyagers.

This is what you should always do anyways. Nobody is forcing you to like these things, or to buy them, or to worship at Hasbro's altar. Buy what you like. Don't buy what you don't like. Don't fret over this side merchandise if it doesn't strike your fancy.

now i am not saying buy nothing at all... but if we could all gear ourselves towards buying better figures and let the rest sit on shelves, it will send a message.

I think you're forgetting two important points:
* adult fans like us only count for a small percentage of sales
* kids are the target audience of this brand as a whole and make up the vast majority of sales
It's been demonstrated that kids love Bot Shots. Small, cheap, gimmicky things are in right now. Beyblade, Bakugan, Monsuno, and now Bot Shots. It's like the 2010s version of Pogs.

I don't know what the consensus is on Kre-O, but it must be doing something right since they keep pumping out new stuff. And since LEGO's Bionicle and Hero Factory lines of what are essentially constructable action figures continue to sell like hotcakes, Hasbro wants a piece of that pie too. If they've done focus testing and concluded that kids will like this stuff, then more power to them I say.

Again, by all means, don't buy things you don't like. Doing otherwise is silly. But try to remember our stake in the business. We adult fans are the vocal minority of this franchise. With the exception of Masterpieces, these toys are not made exclusively for us, they do not have to meet our absolute approval. Hasbro's philosophy is to make toys for kids and if adults like them, too, that's just Prime. Please don't try to give us more power than we have. I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm saying it out of sincere concern, because if you believe we have more power than we do, and things continue as they are, you will just find yourself more frustrated.

this is how companies work, they have analysts that say wahts selling and whats not and what direction to move in. right now we seem to be eating up the junk yet still complaining about it...

Again, kids buy this stuff, not just us. Bot Shots are selling well among kids, Hasbro continues to make them.

time to send a message folks, and its up to each of you to decide what that message is. i am personally only buying mastepieces and alternity figures. i knows these are tailored to collectors and i cant expect hasbro to always cater to these lines, but i am letting them know i wont stand for the other stuff until the QC improves.

Just a little correction, quality is different from quality control. I'm pretty sure you mean quality in this situation, not QC.

and That Bot, from the way youve responded to me, and now i see a few others... i guess you are the new local smartass... good job

It's true, I can be very snarky, but I'm usually well-intentioned and I can also be very eloquent like in this post.


I'd just like to remind everybody: the Transformers brand exists for one purpose and one alone: making money for Hasbro. Everything they do is towards that end. And their target audience is kids. As long as kids like what Hasbro is offering, there's no problem. If adult fans have problems, they may get addressed, but we aren't really that much concern to them. And because we are adult fans of a children's franchise, it's important that we remember that we don't get much say in the direction the franchise goes in, because again, we're outside the target audience and contribute little to the bottom line. Sure, you may think these building sets are ugly and a waste of plastic, but maybe to someone in the target audience they're the coolest thing ever. This doesn't make your opinion invalid, but it's always important to keep it in perspective.

Quick note: I just noticed Prime has a couple energon swords stored on his back.

it is funny that hasbro doesnt realize most adult collectors are parents, and we buy toys for our kids, and my son even realizes the value of not buying crap figures....hasbro doesnt do everything to make money... if so we wouldnt have enough bumblebees on shelves to create a floating island to live on... i know thats far fetched, but damn dont you see that same yellow hell on all of the shelves the last few years or so.

but i know when my child spends my money or even his own, i am making sure as a responsible parent that money is spent wisely on a lasting toy, no matter the brand.

That Bot, your answer rings true, but not absolute, just as my view shouldnt be an absolute either. but there are things we can do. again the majority of transformers kids should have a significant number of transformer collecting parents (dads)... so lets come together as a community, and see what small things we can do as a whole to have an impact on what hasbro does as far as transformers lines, and the quality of figures over all. i am fully aware of trending and gimmicks, but the only gimmick transformers really need is intuitive transformations, good story, and a good product for a fair price...

My friend David is an area rep for hasbro (and my assurance i get the figures i want) also agrees the quality has come down and price has gone up. hes not sure what to do.

Maybe Hasbro's noticing that quality has been lacking. I know some don't agree but I feel a lot of the stuff they're showing off lately seems a bit nicer even if it isn't in line with what I want to collect. DOTM and PRID (*cough* and FOC Bruticus) were low points for Transformers, hopefully it's uphill from here.

Off-topic, but That Bot... I know you're someone, but who? I keep getting confused when people change their usernames. Where's Counterpunch, for that matter?

Yeah, first thing that came to mind was Bionicle/Hero Factory. They look kind of nice but I'll pass, I don't need them. Kreons fill my desire for silly buildable TFs quite nicely. Glad to see a Blitzwing, I hope we get a real one soon.

kirbenvost wrote:Maybe Hasbro's noticing that quality has been lacking. I know some don't agree but I feel a lot of the stuff they're showing off lately seems a bit nicer even if it isn't in line with what I want to collect. DOTM and PRID (*cough* and FOC Bruticus) were low points for Transformers, hopefully it's uphill from here.

Off-topic, but That Bot... I know you're someone, but who? I keep getting confused when people change their usernames. Where's Counterpunch, for that matter?

Yeah, first thing that came to mind was Bionicle/Hero Factory. They look kind of nice but I'll pass, I don't need them. Kreons fill my desire for silly buildable TFs quite nicely. Glad to see a Blitzwing, I hope we get a real one soon.

I agree

They should've made these right from the start. I said it before Slizers/Roboriders/Bionicle concept is great for Transformers!


I do think they transform without reassembling the whole thing. Maybe put of 4 wheels or 2 wings but nothing more than that.

Wow! These make Kre-O look like msterpieces, but I totally see myself buying some sets just to get a specific piece.

That Bot wrote:Yes. All of those things you listed are transformable robot figures.

I will be the first to admit that I should have added the qualifiers 'complex' and 'high quality' to my comment about Hasbro and their production of transformable robot figures (or lack thereof). To be fair, I did not anticipate that someone might interpret the latter half of the sentence in a completely literal fashion, while also choosing to utterly disregard the earlier half of the sentence in which I criticize the Fall of Cybertron figures for their comparatively diminutive size and low material to cost ratio, and the Beast Hunters figures for their ridiculously reductive transformations.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for bringing this problem to my attention, and to inform you that going forward, I will attempt to structure my statements so that they are less open to willful misinterpretation by the sarcastically inclined.

JOP i aplaud you for your effort, just remember a good portion of the fandom need kindergarten explanations... they take everything literally and cannot formulate meaning by the entire sentence or statement structure... it helps if you use brakets to explain what every word means, with links to their dictionary definition. may not hurt to spell phonetically too.

*This is not against any particular person... its more for laughs

kirbenvost wrote:Off-topic, but That Bot... I know you're someone, but who? I keep getting confused when people change their usernames. Where's Counterpunch, for that matter?

I have never been anybody but That Bot. Maybe you know me from somewhere else? I usually go by That Guy or variations, but that was taken and I elected to make my name here thematically appropriate. Also, that's a pretty common username so other That Guys may not be me.

JOP wrote:

That Bot wrote:Yes. All of those things you listed are transformable robot figures.

I will be the first to admit that I should have added the qualifiers 'complex' and 'high quality' to my comment about Hasbro and their production of transformable robot figures (or lack thereof). To be fair, I did not anticipate that someone might interpret the latter half of the sentence in a completely literal fashion, while also choosing to utterly disregard the earlier half of the sentence in which I criticize the Fall of Cybertron figures for their comparatively diminutive size and low material to cost ratio, and the Beast Hunters figures for their ridiculously reductive transformations.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for bringing this problem to my attention, and to inform you that going forward, I will attempt to structure my statements so that they are less open to willful misinterpretation by the sarcastically inclined.

Well look. Even if you put aside Bot Shots, Prime and Generations are the same kind of Transformers we've always had. Okay, yes, the're lighter, and they seem to cost more. But they really don't. If you check inflation, a deluxe now costs roughly the same as a deluxe in the late 90s. Likewise voyagers to their size equivalent. Somehow in the 2000s Hasbro managed to increase the size without increasing the price. Looking back, there was no way that could last. Economy crashed, and suddenly Hasbro has to cut costs. Result: less plastic in toys and inflation caught up with the prices. Course it seems that the Prime and early Generations figs were planned to have those retools with the spikes and giant weapons and whatnot so they were made extra small so the retools would be within plastic limitations.
ANYWAY. Prime and Generations are good old-fashined robot-to-something else Transformers without trying to compete with Bionicle or LEGO or Bakugan or whatever. Furthermore, in 2013 their one and only gimmick is transformation itself and the diversity of the weaponry, except the Gen voyagers which have a couple other gimmicks.

Wow. These are some of the ugliest Transformer things I've seen in a good while. I understand they feel a need to branch out, but these? I don't even know where to begin.

Oh wait, yes I do:

These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

Autobot032 wrote:These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

In fairness, I don't think I've heard Hasbro talk about third parties in a while. The ban on non-Transformers products at Botcon wasn't limited to 3P stuff, was it?

That Bot wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

In fairness, I don't think I've heard Hasbro talk about third parties in a while. The ban on non-Transformers products at Botcon wasn't limited to 3P stuff, was it?

They could sell if it was "non-toy products". Make of that what you will.

Agree with That Bot, beast wars voyagers were pretty small, armada beefed them up but with simpler transformations.

We haven't seen a Generations triple changing blitzwing because triple changers aren't cost effective to make due to the difficulty in reusing the mold.

I know I'm in the minority among adult collectors but I like Bot Shots, don't buy as many as I'd like due to not having anyone to play with, I like the kreo concept and I like these new building sets. Will I buy them all? No but I'll buy what I like

Autobot032 wrote:Wow. These are some of the ugliest Transformer things I've seen in a good while. I understand they feel a need to branch out, but these? I don't even know where to begin.

Oh wait, yes I do:

These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

It is possible that Hasbro has worked out some kind of profit sharing deal with lego or mega blocks.

Too bad the car/truck modes look so bad - that would have been where they could really differentiate themselves from neo-machines (Mega-Blocks versions, which have two modes too) and Hero Factory.

My 6-yr-old and 4-yr-old have a couple Hero Factory toys, and they are very sturdy, seem to lose parts less than damn RiD Knock-Out, despite them being designed to more easily come apart.

Problem with Hero Factory is that, unlike Ninjago, kids don't care about the storyline/characters. So, for transformers, this could work much better.

njb902 wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:Wow. These are some of the ugliest Transformer things I've seen in a good while. I understand they feel a need to branch out, but these? I don't even know where to begin.

Oh wait, yes I do:

These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

It is possible that Hasbro has worked out some kind of profit sharing deal with lego or mega blocks.

With the patent for the basic building block now public domain, I doubt that. Besides, while similar in execution, they don't share parts with Bionicle or Hero Factory as far as I can tell.

It's kinda funny complaining about Hasbro being unoriginal with these side-lines when Transformers was originally nothing but recycled Japanese mech toys. I mean, I totally agree that it's a bit disappointing seeing these "new" product lines that are blatantly similar to x popular rival toyline, but at the same time it's amusingly ironic.

That Bot wrote:Even if you put aside Bot Shots, Prime and Generations are the same kind of Transformers we've always had.

Yes and no. "Generations" (an unusual label, considering that the entire line consists of Fall of Cybertron characters) are smaller and lighter (but we'll get onto that subject shortly), and the Prime line seems to consist of new molds of the same damn group of characters, combined with what are now four (Thundertron, Predaking, Lazerback, Ripclaw) beast-themed figures with the same goddamn uninspired quadruped-to-biped transformation. Technically, they are Transformers figures; but they are along a number of axis (size, material weight, transformation complexity) quite terrible and therefore different from what has gone before.

That Bot wrote:Okay, yes, the're lighter, and they seem to cost more. But they really don't.

The problem is quite simple: Transformers are made from plastic; plastic is derived in large part from oil products; the cost of crude, despite fluctuations, is generally following an upward trend. Hasbro, rather than adjusting prices to match, have instead chosen to reduce the degree of plastic in their figures. This started with the second iteration of Classics, and has become horrendously noticeable with the the Fall of Cybertron figures.

Are figures more expensive now? Yes; regardless of whether Hasbro raises their prices, or reduces the size and amount of material in each figure, the outcome is the same - a worse cost to material ratio for the consumer.

That's a red herring though; I don't actually care if the figures are more expensive. If anything, I'm probably one of the few people that wishes Hasbro would actually accept the inevitable, raise their prices further, and produce figures that scale well with previous releases.

Going back to what you were saying earlier: Hasbro are currently diversifying the product lines under the Transformers brand umbrella, and that's great. However, one of the fundamental principles for business success is to focus on core competency; and I think an argument could be made that right now, Hasbro are over-diversifying at a time when their core product - in this case, figures - are positively lackluster.

You can counter that Hasbros core lines are fine; I'll agree to disagree; we will go our separate ways, and only time will tell if BotShots, Kre-O and Construct-Bots are the next big thing... or the next Robot Heroes and Built To Rule.

That Bot wrote:

kirbenvost wrote:Off-topic, but That Bot... I know you're someone, but who? I keep getting confused when people change their usernames. Where's Counterpunch, for that matter?

I have never been anybody but That Bot. Maybe you know me from somewhere else? I usually go by That Guy or variations, but that was taken and I elected to make my name here thematically appropriate. Also, that's a pretty common username so other That Guys may not be me.

Ah, I think I got confused because you have the same signature as someone else!

JOP wrote:

That Bot wrote:Even if you put aside Bot Shots, Prime and Generations are the same kind of Transformers we've always had.

Yes and no. "Generations" (an unusual label, considering that the entire line consists of Fall of Cybertron characters) are smaller and lighter (but we'll get onto that subject shortly), and the Prime line seems to consist of new molds of the same damn group of characters, combined with what are now four (Thundertron, Predaking, Lazerback, Ripclaw) beast-themed figures with the same goddamn uninspired quadruped-to-biped transformation. Technically, they are Transformers figures; but they are along a number of axis (size, material weight, transformation complexity) quite terrible and therefore different from what has gone before.

I'll grant that the name "Generations" is rather strange. However, since Air Raid and the Wreckers all seem to be non-game characters, that may possibly be where it comes from? Or it's an older "Generation" of Transformers.....IDK, that one is strange, but it's a toyline of robot to vehicle actions figures and that's the important part for my point.
While it's true that Beast Hunters has not introduced much in the way of new characters yet, this is generally consistent with past lines such as Cybertron and Beast Wars upgrading certain characters into new bodies (toys). It remains to be seen whether these new bodies will be seen in the show. Yes, the fact that all the returning first wave characters are retools of their counterparts from RID wave 1 is not good, BUT wave 2 gives us 4 ENTIRELY new molds (even for our returning characters), and Toy Fair should give us a look at wave 3 and beyond (as well as whether Generations is continuing after the Wreckers). Also, Thundertron and Predaking do NOT follow the generic quad-to-biped pattern, as Thundertron's forearms are in fact only half of his beast's forelegs, his upper arms filling in the chest cavity left by the lion head. Predaking's robot legs form his beast body and his rear beast legs fold up inside of them in robot mode. Additionally, vehicle transformers are guilty of the exact same trappings as everybody criticizes beast bots for. How many transformations boil down to "stand car on end, unfold legs from back of car, pull out arms from side of car, fold car hood down to form robot chest"? A whole lot. And even though Lazerback and Ripclaw have very basic transformations, they still manage to have cool tidbits in them, like how Lazerback's body splits open to store the beast head, and how Ripclaw's beast neck forms shoulder armor. I find that much more desirable than having beast legs just hanging off the back or sides of the robot (unless it's Big Convoy where you can pretend the mammoth rear legs are giant laser cannons in bot mode).

That Bot wrote:Okay, yes, the're lighter, and they seem to cost more. But they really don't.

The problem is quite simple: Transformers are made from plastic; plastic is derived in large part from oil products; the cost of crude, despite fluctuations, is generally following an upward trend. Hasbro, rather than adjusting prices to match, have instead chosen to reduce the degree of plastic in their figures. This started with the second iteration of Classics, and has become horrendously noticeable with the the Fall of Cybertron figures.

Are figures more expensive now? Yes; regardless of whether Hasbro raises their prices, or reduces the size and amount of material in each figure, the outcome is the same - a worse cost to material ratio for the consumer.

That's a red herring though; I don't actually care if the figures are more expensive. If anything, I'm probably one of the few people that wishes Hasbro would actually accept the inevitable, raise their prices further, and produce figures that scale well with previous releases.

I agree with you here. I'd be willing to pay more money for a better quality toy. I've got a preorder in for a third party Predacon right that's roughly voyager size right now for $75 and I'm okay with that because it looks cool as hell. I think the problem stems from non-fan parents who just see the pricetag and the size of the toy and compare it to the price of similarly-sized action figures. We know that this is a false dichotomy because even simple transformers are more complex than most action figures, but your non-Transfan parent will just see a 5" deluxe TF figure selling for $30, and a 5" action figure selling for $10, and possibly not consider engineering. Hasbro has to keep prices accessible, which results in sacrifices in plastic quality, quantity, and level of engineering. It sucks but that's just the way it is. I remain optimistic that things will improve in the future and take my enjoyment from how things are now.

Going back to what you were saying earlier: Hasbro are currently diversifying the product lines under the Transformers brand umbrella, and that's great. However, one of the fundamental principles for business success is to focus on core competency; and I think an argument could be made that right now, Hasbro are over-diversifying at a time when their core product - in this case, figures - are positively lackluster.

You can counter that Hasbros core lines are fine; I'll agree to disagree; we will go our separate ways, and only time will tell if BotShots, Kre-O and Construct-Bots are the next big thing... or the next Robot Heroes and Built To Rule.

Indeed, while I think these are a cool idea that I have no interest in, and think they'll do fine, I could be totally off the mark. Who knows.

kirbenvost wrote:Ah, I think I got confused because you have the same signature as someone else!

If you've seen someone else with this banner image

On this domain

Code: Select all

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Drago11/PPGZ/kaorugaogaigar.gif

It's probably me, or someone stealing from me.