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JOP i aplaud you for your effort, just remember a good portion of the fandom need kindergarten explanations... they take everything literally and cannot formulate meaning by the entire sentence or statement structure... it helps if you use brakets to explain what every word means, with links to their dictionary definition. may not hurt to spell phonetically too.

*This is not against any particular person... its more for laughs

kirbenvost wrote:Off-topic, but That Bot... I know you're someone, but who? I keep getting confused when people change their usernames. Where's Counterpunch, for that matter?

I have never been anybody but That Bot. Maybe you know me from somewhere else? I usually go by That Guy or variations, but that was taken and I elected to make my name here thematically appropriate. Also, that's a pretty common username so other That Guys may not be me.

JOP wrote:

That Bot wrote:Yes. All of those things you listed are transformable robot figures.

I will be the first to admit that I should have added the qualifiers 'complex' and 'high quality' to my comment about Hasbro and their production of transformable robot figures (or lack thereof). To be fair, I did not anticipate that someone might interpret the latter half of the sentence in a completely literal fashion, while also choosing to utterly disregard the earlier half of the sentence in which I criticize the Fall of Cybertron figures for their comparatively diminutive size and low material to cost ratio, and the Beast Hunters figures for their ridiculously reductive transformations.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for bringing this problem to my attention, and to inform you that going forward, I will attempt to structure my statements so that they are less open to willful misinterpretation by the sarcastically inclined.

Well look. Even if you put aside Bot Shots, Prime and Generations are the same kind of Transformers we've always had. Okay, yes, the're lighter, and they seem to cost more. But they really don't. If you check inflation, a deluxe now costs roughly the same as a deluxe in the late 90s. Likewise voyagers to their size equivalent. Somehow in the 2000s Hasbro managed to increase the size without increasing the price. Looking back, there was no way that could last. Economy crashed, and suddenly Hasbro has to cut costs. Result: less plastic in toys and inflation caught up with the prices. Course it seems that the Prime and early Generations figs were planned to have those retools with the spikes and giant weapons and whatnot so they were made extra small so the retools would be within plastic limitations.
ANYWAY. Prime and Generations are good old-fashined robot-to-something else Transformers without trying to compete with Bionicle or LEGO or Bakugan or whatever. Furthermore, in 2013 their one and only gimmick is transformation itself and the diversity of the weaponry, except the Gen voyagers which have a couple other gimmicks.

Wow. These are some of the ugliest Transformer things I've seen in a good while. I understand they feel a need to branch out, but these? I don't even know where to begin.

Oh wait, yes I do:

These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

Autobot032 wrote:These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

In fairness, I don't think I've heard Hasbro talk about third parties in a while. The ban on non-Transformers products at Botcon wasn't limited to 3P stuff, was it?

That Bot wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

In fairness, I don't think I've heard Hasbro talk about third parties in a while. The ban on non-Transformers products at Botcon wasn't limited to 3P stuff, was it?

They could sell if it was "non-toy products". Make of that what you will.

Agree with That Bot, beast wars voyagers were pretty small, armada beefed them up but with simpler transformations.

We haven't seen a Generations triple changing blitzwing because triple changers aren't cost effective to make due to the difficulty in reusing the mold.

I know I'm in the minority among adult collectors but I like Bot Shots, don't buy as many as I'd like due to not having anyone to play with, I like the kreo concept and I like these new building sets. Will I buy them all? No but I'll buy what I like

Autobot032 wrote:Wow. These are some of the ugliest Transformer things I've seen in a good while. I understand they feel a need to branch out, but these? I don't even know where to begin.

Oh wait, yes I do:

These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

It is possible that Hasbro has worked out some kind of profit sharing deal with lego or mega blocks.

Too bad the car/truck modes look so bad - that would have been where they could really differentiate themselves from neo-machines (Mega-Blocks versions, which have two modes too) and Hero Factory.

My 6-yr-old and 4-yr-old have a couple Hero Factory toys, and they are very sturdy, seem to lose parts less than damn RiD Knock-Out, despite them being designed to more easily come apart.

Problem with Hero Factory is that, unlike Ninjago, kids don't care about the storyline/characters. So, for transformers, this could work much better.

njb902 wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:Wow. These are some of the ugliest Transformer things I've seen in a good while. I understand they feel a need to branch out, but these? I don't even know where to begin.

Oh wait, yes I do:

These are terrible AND a ripoff of Lego. Hasbro has no problem complaining about 3rd parties, but when they're the 3rd party, well...

It is possible that Hasbro has worked out some kind of profit sharing deal with lego or mega blocks.

With the patent for the basic building block now public domain, I doubt that. Besides, while similar in execution, they don't share parts with Bionicle or Hero Factory as far as I can tell.

It's kinda funny complaining about Hasbro being unoriginal with these side-lines when Transformers was originally nothing but recycled Japanese mech toys. I mean, I totally agree that it's a bit disappointing seeing these "new" product lines that are blatantly similar to x popular rival toyline, but at the same time it's amusingly ironic.

That Bot wrote:Even if you put aside Bot Shots, Prime and Generations are the same kind of Transformers we've always had.

Yes and no. "Generations" (an unusual label, considering that the entire line consists of Fall of Cybertron characters) are smaller and lighter (but we'll get onto that subject shortly), and the Prime line seems to consist of new molds of the same damn group of characters, combined with what are now four (Thundertron, Predaking, Lazerback, Ripclaw) beast-themed figures with the same goddamn uninspired quadruped-to-biped transformation. Technically, they are Transformers figures; but they are along a number of axis (size, material weight, transformation complexity) quite terrible and therefore different from what has gone before.

That Bot wrote:Okay, yes, the're lighter, and they seem to cost more. But they really don't.

The problem is quite simple: Transformers are made from plastic; plastic is derived in large part from oil products; the cost of crude, despite fluctuations, is generally following an upward trend. Hasbro, rather than adjusting prices to match, have instead chosen to reduce the degree of plastic in their figures. This started with the second iteration of Classics, and has become horrendously noticeable with the the Fall of Cybertron figures.

Are figures more expensive now? Yes; regardless of whether Hasbro raises their prices, or reduces the size and amount of material in each figure, the outcome is the same - a worse cost to material ratio for the consumer.

That's a red herring though; I don't actually care if the figures are more expensive. If anything, I'm probably one of the few people that wishes Hasbro would actually accept the inevitable, raise their prices further, and produce figures that scale well with previous releases.

Going back to what you were saying earlier: Hasbro are currently diversifying the product lines under the Transformers brand umbrella, and that's great. However, one of the fundamental principles for business success is to focus on core competency; and I think an argument could be made that right now, Hasbro are over-diversifying at a time when their core product - in this case, figures - are positively lackluster.

You can counter that Hasbros core lines are fine; I'll agree to disagree; we will go our separate ways, and only time will tell if BotShots, Kre-O and Construct-Bots are the next big thing... or the next Robot Heroes and Built To Rule.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:We haven't seen a Generations triple changing blitzwing because triple changers aren't cost effective to make due to the difficulty in reusing the mold.

I know I'm in the minority among adult collectors but I like Bot Shots, don't buy as many as I'd like due to not having anyone to play with, I like the kreo concept and I like these new building sets. Will I buy them all? No but I'll buy what I like

They could repaint him as a Slamdance homage. Red tank mode and blue jet mode. It'd work well I think!

I've been thinking about getting Bot Shots myself, but I have been suckered into buying into games that suck before. I've tried bakugan when it came out, before I was aware that there was an anime (which just made it 100x worse for me), and I regret having four of the damn things. I also bought into that Transformers collectable 3d card game that came out after the 07 movie. The concept was awesome, but the execution was horrible. I still bought a lot of them though because the store I got them at was selling them for $1 a pack. Eh

As for these construct-bots, they don't interest me. Not really interested in these building sets, and the only Kre-O thing I'm interested in is Scorponok.

EDIT: bloop *spits up blood*

That Bot wrote:

kirbenvost wrote:Off-topic, but That Bot... I know you're someone, but who? I keep getting confused when people change their usernames. Where's Counterpunch, for that matter?

I have never been anybody but That Bot. Maybe you know me from somewhere else? I usually go by That Guy or variations, but that was taken and I elected to make my name here thematically appropriate. Also, that's a pretty common username so other That Guys may not be me.

Ah, I think I got confused because you have the same signature as someone else!

JOP wrote:

That Bot wrote:Even if you put aside Bot Shots, Prime and Generations are the same kind of Transformers we've always had.

Yes and no. "Generations" (an unusual label, considering that the entire line consists of Fall of Cybertron characters) are smaller and lighter (but we'll get onto that subject shortly), and the Prime line seems to consist of new molds of the same damn group of characters, combined with what are now four (Thundertron, Predaking, Lazerback, Ripclaw) beast-themed figures with the same goddamn uninspired quadruped-to-biped transformation. Technically, they are Transformers figures; but they are along a number of axis (size, material weight, transformation complexity) quite terrible and therefore different from what has gone before.

I'll grant that the name "Generations" is rather strange. However, since Air Raid and the Wreckers all seem to be non-game characters, that may possibly be where it comes from? Or it's an older "Generation" of Transformers.....IDK, that one is strange, but it's a toyline of robot to vehicle actions figures and that's the important part for my point.
While it's true that Beast Hunters has not introduced much in the way of new characters yet, this is generally consistent with past lines such as Cybertron and Beast Wars upgrading certain characters into new bodies (toys). It remains to be seen whether these new bodies will be seen in the show. Yes, the fact that all the returning first wave characters are retools of their counterparts from RID wave 1 is not good, BUT wave 2 gives us 4 ENTIRELY new molds (even for our returning characters), and Toy Fair should give us a look at wave 3 and beyond (as well as whether Generations is continuing after the Wreckers). Also, Thundertron and Predaking do NOT follow the generic quad-to-biped pattern, as Thundertron's forearms are in fact only half of his beast's forelegs, his upper arms filling in the chest cavity left by the lion head. Predaking's robot legs form his beast body and his rear beast legs fold up inside of them in robot mode. Additionally, vehicle transformers are guilty of the exact same trappings as everybody criticizes beast bots for. How many transformations boil down to "stand car on end, unfold legs from back of car, pull out arms from side of car, fold car hood down to form robot chest"? A whole lot. And even though Lazerback and Ripclaw have very basic transformations, they still manage to have cool tidbits in them, like how Lazerback's body splits open to store the beast head, and how Ripclaw's beast neck forms shoulder armor. I find that much more desirable than having beast legs just hanging off the back or sides of the robot (unless it's Big Convoy where you can pretend the mammoth rear legs are giant laser cannons in bot mode).

That Bot wrote:Okay, yes, the're lighter, and they seem to cost more. But they really don't.

The problem is quite simple: Transformers are made from plastic; plastic is derived in large part from oil products; the cost of crude, despite fluctuations, is generally following an upward trend. Hasbro, rather than adjusting prices to match, have instead chosen to reduce the degree of plastic in their figures. This started with the second iteration of Classics, and has become horrendously noticeable with the the Fall of Cybertron figures.

Are figures more expensive now? Yes; regardless of whether Hasbro raises their prices, or reduces the size and amount of material in each figure, the outcome is the same - a worse cost to material ratio for the consumer.

That's a red herring though; I don't actually care if the figures are more expensive. If anything, I'm probably one of the few people that wishes Hasbro would actually accept the inevitable, raise their prices further, and produce figures that scale well with previous releases.

I agree with you here. I'd be willing to pay more money for a better quality toy. I've got a preorder in for a third party Predacon right that's roughly voyager size right now for $75 and I'm okay with that because it looks cool as hell. I think the problem stems from non-fan parents who just see the pricetag and the size of the toy and compare it to the price of similarly-sized action figures. We know that this is a false dichotomy because even simple transformers are more complex than most action figures, but your non-Transfan parent will just see a 5" deluxe TF figure selling for $30, and a 5" action figure selling for $10, and possibly not consider engineering. Hasbro has to keep prices accessible, which results in sacrifices in plastic quality, quantity, and level of engineering. It sucks but that's just the way it is. I remain optimistic that things will improve in the future and take my enjoyment from how things are now.

Going back to what you were saying earlier: Hasbro are currently diversifying the product lines under the Transformers brand umbrella, and that's great. However, one of the fundamental principles for business success is to focus on core competency; and I think an argument could be made that right now, Hasbro are over-diversifying at a time when their core product - in this case, figures - are positively lackluster.

You can counter that Hasbros core lines are fine; I'll agree to disagree; we will go our separate ways, and only time will tell if BotShots, Kre-O and Construct-Bots are the next big thing... or the next Robot Heroes and Built To Rule.

Indeed, while I think these are a cool idea that I have no interest in, and think they'll do fine, I could be totally off the mark. Who knows.

kirbenvost wrote:Ah, I think I got confused because you have the same signature as someone else!

If you've seen someone else with this banner image

On this domain

Code: Select all

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Drago11/PPGZ/kaorugaogaigar.gif

It's probably me, or someone stealing from me.

you all keep saying the main approach for hasbro is kids...well i have been to botcon 5 times, where hasbro and takara do some major reveals, cater to the fans etc etc... yet in all my years i have yet to see the suppossed target...little kids.. 99% of the people i see are adult collectors... somethin you all didnt factor in.. also it has been stated a while back that almost 50% of boys toys are bought by adults for adults, and 16% of girls toys...

VioMeTriX wrote:you all keep saying the main approach for hasbro is kids...well i have been to botcon 5 times, where hasbro and takara do some major reveals, cater to the fans etc etc... yet in all my years i have yet to see the suppossed target...little kids.. 99% of the people i see are adult collectors... somethin you all didnt factor in.. also it has been stated a while back that almost 50% of boys toys are bought by adults for adults, and 16% of girls toys...

That statistic has got to be as bad as the "collectors account for only about 10% of the market," bit. I'd guess it's probably somewhere in the middle though, maybe closer to 25-30%?

RAcast wrote:

VioMeTriX wrote:you all keep saying the main approach for hasbro is kids...well i have been to botcon 5 times, where hasbro and takara do some major reveals, cater to the fans etc etc... yet in all my years i have yet to see the suppossed target...little kids.. 99% of the people i see are adult collectors... somethin you all didnt factor in.. also it has been stated a while back that almost 50% of boys toys are bought by adults for adults, and 16% of girls toys...

That statistic has got to be as bad as the "collectors account for only about 10% of the market," bit. I'd guess it's probably somewhere in the middle though, maybe closer to 25-30%?

I can only use my experience with the Joe fandom but Joe con averages 2,000 attendees a year; What's on Joe Mind? the number one Joe podcast averages 16,00 listeners. The majority of fans don't attend conventions.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

RAcast wrote:

VioMeTriX wrote:you all keep saying the main approach for hasbro is kids...well i have been to botcon 5 times, where hasbro and takara do some major reveals, cater to the fans etc etc... yet in all my years i have yet to see the suppossed target...little kids.. 99% of the people i see are adult collectors... somethin you all didnt factor in.. also it has been stated a while back that almost 50% of boys toys are bought by adults for adults, and 16% of girls toys...

That statistic has got to be as bad as the "collectors account for only about 10% of the market," bit. I'd guess it's probably somewhere in the middle though, maybe closer to 25-30%?

I can only use my experience with the Joe fandom but Joe con averages 2,000 attendees a year; What's on Joe Mind? the number one Joe podcast averages 16,00 listeners. The majority of fans don't attend conventions.

Mainly because most people can't afford travel expenses.

VioMeTriX wrote:you all keep saying the main approach for hasbro is kids...well i have been to botcon 5 times, where hasbro and takara do some major reveals, cater to the fans etc etc... yet in all my years i have yet to see the suppossed target...little kids.. 99% of the people i see are adult collectors... somethin you all didnt factor in.. also it has been stated a while back that almost 50% of boys toys are bought by adults for adults, and 16% of girls toys...

I'd wager that Botcon attendees make up about 1% of the Transformers purchasing community, if I had to throw a number out there without any real statistics.

Mindmaster wrote:

chuckdawg1999 wrote:The majority of fans don't attend conventions.

Mainly because most people can't afford travel expenses.

^THIS!

I'd like to attend Botcon and the like.....but most of these convention are just TOO DAMN FAR AWAY. The only TF Convention I can attend this year is Slagacon because it's in Ohio and I live in Ohio. Major travel cost reduction there.

well if i could afford to take you all to botcon i would... well except megs for pres, he doesnt deserve it

Am I the only one who finds Bumblebee comepletely BA?

Manterax Prime wrote:Am I the only one who finds Bumblebee comepletely BA?

BA?

Bad ass? if so i disagree, but that doesnt mean you cant like it

This is why I buy GEEWUN these days.