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I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Transformers 3 is scheduled to be released on July 1st, 2011. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby SlyTF1 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:06 pm

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cotss2012 wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:
cotss2012 wrote:Define "not many".

Minor things like Wheelie disappearing before the final battle.


So the National Air and Space Museum being located in the middle of a desert in Arizona is "minor", in your opinion? What would you consider a "major" plot hole?


That's not a plot hole. In no way does it dramatically effect the plot.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby cotss2012 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:17 pm

DUDE.

Wheelie points a laser at Washington, D.C. on a map in John Turturro's basement

The characters go to Washington, D.C.

They enter the National Air and Space Museum... in Washington, D.C.

When they exit the same museum, it has moved, and is now roughly 3,000 miles from its previous location.

THAT IS A HUGE GODDAMN PLOT HOLE.
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby SlyTF1 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:04 pm

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cotss2012 wrote:DUDE.

Wheelie points a laser at Washington, D.C. on a map in John Turturro's basement

The characters go to Washington, D.C.

They enter the National Air and Space Museum... in Washington, D.C.

When they exit the same museum, it has moved, and is now roughly 3,000 miles from its previous location.

THAT IS A HUGE GODDAMN PLOT HOLE.


Just because the creators chose a different spot to portray a spot doesn't make it a plot hole. In he movie, it's still damn in DC. It doesn't change the plot at all.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:04 pm

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cotss2012 wrote:DUDE.

Wheelie points a laser at Washington, D.C. on a map in John Turturro's basement

The characters go to Washington, D.C.

They enter the National Air and Space Museum... in Washington, D.C.

When they exit the same museum, it has moved, and is now roughly 3,000 miles from its previous location.

THAT IS A HUGE GODDAMN PLOT HOLE.

That's a setting issue, not a plot issue.
From Wikipedia:
A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. It's fiction, D.C. being near a desert is about as serious as there being a Mt. St. Hilary in Oregon.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Capt.Failure » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:26 pm

cotss2012 wrote:DUDE.

Wheelie points a laser at Washington, D.C. on a map in John Turturro's basement

The characters go to Washington, D.C.

They enter the National Air and Space Museum... in Washington, D.C.

When they exit the same museum, it has moved, and is now roughly 3,000 miles from its previous location.

THAT IS A HUGE GODDAMN PLOT HOLE.


Educate yourself on what a plot hole is. Then come back to the thread.

Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).

I'll also point out that "robot heaven" isn't one either. That would require an existential debate on whether a Cybertronian has a soul or not, and this isn't the thread for that.

*Note: Considering post-9/11 Americans can be...sensitive about mass destruction it wouldn't surprise me if LA was always the planned city for the finale in Transformers but the executives veto'd it.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Rodimus Prime » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:37 pm

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cotss2012 wrote: Personally, I love drinking 8-12 shots of vodka and sitting down for some giant robot fighting and testicle jokes, and one of these days, I'd like to watch Tron Legacy under the influence of MDMA.


And you call others ******.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Delta Magnus » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:56 am

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OH GOD NOT THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN.

The G1 cartoon had TONNES more plot holes and animation errors than all 3 live-action films combined. Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?

People just **** about the movies because they're not the same as their badly animated, rather corny childhood memories, complete with fragile, inarticulated excuses for toys with SLAGGIN' STICKERS and no knees. If you hate the films that much, don't watch them.

Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?

Rant over.
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I know what you mean. It looks like they took 5 robots and combined them into one big robot. It doesn't make any sense!
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby SlyTF1 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:47 am

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Capt.Failure wrote:
cotss2012 wrote:DUDE.

Wheelie points a laser at Washington, D.C. on a map in John Turturro's basement

The characters go to Washington, D.C.

They enter the National Air and Space Museum... in Washington, D.C.

When they exit the same museum, it has moved, and is now roughly 3,000 miles from its previous location.

THAT IS A HUGE GODDAMN PLOT HOLE.


Educate yourself on what a plot hole is. Then come back to the thread.

Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).

I'll also point out that "robot heaven" isn't one either. That would require an existential debate on whether a Cybertronian has a soul or not, and this isn't the thread for that.

*Note: Considering post-9/11 Americans can be...sensitive about mass destruction it wouldn't surprise me if LA was always the planned city for the finale in Transformers but the executives veto'd it.


1. Minor plothole.
2. How do you know the first 13 weren't anti-violence?
3. Mission City was supposed to be near LA. Leo was pretty much a dumbass anyway, so a character misinterpreting one city for another that's close by isn't a plot hole either.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Noideaforaname » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:00 pm

SlyTF1 wrote:2. How do you know the first 13 weren't anti-violence?

Fighting a big old war:
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and IMPALING the Fallen:
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don't seem "anti-violent" to me. Plus, I'd imagine Jetfire would've mention something to the effect if they were. He's not that senile.

Why the Original Primes didn't kill the Fallen while they got him literally pinned down and outnumbered despite (presumably) knowing only they could kill him isn't explained, hence is a legitimate plot hole. We can speculate all day long, and Hasbro or a comic could even retcon a reason in, but it's still a plot hole within the movie.

Plot holes happen, even in critically-acclaimed works (see for yourself here). Trying to deny or reconcile them is pointless, just got to accept them and move on.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:23 pm

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Jetfire did say the Fallen was stronger than all the other Primes. Even though they managed to get the Matrix away from him I don't think they could have beaten him. So they sacrificed themselves to hide the Matrix from him.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Capt.Failure » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:10 am

Evil_the_Nub wrote:Jetfire did say the Fallen was stronger than all the other Primes. Even though they managed to get the Matrix away from him I don't think they could have beaten him. So they sacrificed themselves to hide the Matrix from him.


That on paper anyway is the general idea. I think ultimately what it boils down to is they didn't have the time to film the logical outcome: an epic battle between a powered up Prime and the Fallen that gave the Fallen the credit he deserved.

Why didn't they? You can mostly blame the executives who decided to go ahead with filming using only a 14 page unfinished script farted out in a weekend by two no-talent hacks who Bay had to pay out of pocket just to stay for that weekend. When the men up top said "filming is finished in <insert number> days, then we want the film edited and done" you do what they say. Bay does not have the level of creative control a lot of our local forumites like to think. Of course they would think he does since he's an easy target, not the faceless Hasbro and Paramount executives.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby cotss2012 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:26 am

SlyTF1 wrote:In he movie, it's still damn in DC.


Wrong. In the movie, the Air and Space museum literally moves from DC to the middle of a desert. There are even some exterior shots immediately prior to the characters entering the museum, and they depict the museum in a distinctly non-desert-looking location.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:That's a setting issue, not a plot issue.
From Wikipedia:
[i]A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events


I'm pretty sure that teleporting the Smithsonian from Washington DC to the middle of a desert constitutes an "illogical or impossible event"

Capt.Failure wrote:Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).


You forgot:

4. In TF '07, the Autobot-Decepticon war was started by Megatron. In RotF, it was started by the Fallen.

5. In TF '07, the war was fought over the Allspark. In RotF, the war was fought over the sun-blower-upper-machine.

6. The entire plot thread with Alice, which made no sense and went nowhere.

7. How did BB know that Sam was at the party?

8. How did Optimus know that Megatron was about to kill Sam in that warehouse?

9. At what point does Sam's head stop being full of crazy, and why?

blah blah blah...

Delta Magnus wrote:The G1 cartoon had TONNES more plot holes and animation errors than all 3 live-action films combined.


That's no excuse. You can't hold a half-hour toy commercial to the same standards as a $200 million summer blockbuster. However, I'm willing to bet that the first season actually had fewer plot holes per hour than RotF did.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?


They don't actually say it. However, it turns out that there's an "airplane graveyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base near Tucson, Arizona, and that's apparently where the museum teleported to.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?


Because this is the live-action movie forum. We go elsewhere to complain about Energon.
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:05 am

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cotss2012 wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).


You forgot:

4. In TF '07, the Autobot-Decepticon war was started by Megatron. In RotF, it was started by the Fallen.

5. In TF '07, the war was fought over the Allspark. In RotF, the war was fought over the sun-blower-upper-machine.

Different incidents. The conflict the Fallen started was with the other Primes. Megatron started the war between the Autobots and Decepticons. Although the Fallen did have a power behind the scenes role in that.
6. The entire plot thread with Alice, which made no sense and went nowhere.

She was trying to capture Sam(or at least his brain) without drawing too much attention.
7. How did BB know that Sam was at the party?

He knew what college he went to. When he got there he would have noticed that huge party and probably thought that would be a good place to start looking.
8. How did Optimus know that Megatron was about to kill Sam in that warehouse?

A giant helicopter snatching a car off the road would draw a lot of attention. Trace a few 911 calls and that would lead them right to it.
9. At what point does Sam's head stop being full of crazy, and why?

This is all speculation, but I think the Allspark went into the Matrix when Sam found it. That would explain why it was leading him there, it needed a new vessel.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?


cotss2012 wrote:They don't actually say it. However, it turns out that there's an "airplane graveyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base near Tucson, Arizona, and that's apparently where the museum teleported to.

Just because it was filmed there doesn't mean that's where it took place. By that logic the Lord of the Rings took place in New Zealand and all of Star Wars happened on Earth. It's a fictional world where there are a few geographical differences to the one we live in.
Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?


Because this is the live-action movie forum. We go elsewhere to complain about Energon.

Or you could talk about thing you do like. I hated the movie Cloverfield with the intensity of 1000 suns, but instead of spending my time on Cloverfield forums I spend it here talking about Transformer which I do like.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Capt.Failure » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:38 am

cotss2012 wrote:
SlyTF1 wrote:In he movie, it's still damn in DC.


Wrong. In the movie, the Air and Space museum literally moves from DC to the middle of a desert. There are even some exterior shots immediately prior to the characters entering the museum, and they depict the museum in a distinctly non-desert-looking location.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:That's a setting issue, not a plot issue.
From Wikipedia:
[i]A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events


I'm pretty sure that teleporting the Smithsonian from Washington DC to the middle of a desert constitutes an "illogical or impossible event"

Capt.Failure wrote:Plot holes in RotF:
1. Wheelie teleporting/disappearing.
2. The Primes could beat the Fallen to take the Matrix but not kill him even though only a Prime could finish him. Optimus' fusion with Jetfire giving him the strength to do this is tangentially related.
3. The cover up of the previous film's final battle and it's location ("Mission City" in Transformers, *Los Angeles in RotF).


You forgot:

4. In TF '07, the Autobot-Decepticon war was started by Megatron. In RotF, it was started by the Fallen.

5. In TF '07, the war was fought over the Allspark. In RotF, the war was fought over the sun-blower-upper-machine.

6. The entire plot thread with Alice, which made no sense and went nowhere.

7. How did BB know that Sam was at the party?

8. How did Optimus know that Megatron was about to kill Sam in that warehouse?

9. At what point does Sam's head stop being full of crazy, and why?

blah blah blah...

Delta Magnus wrote:The G1 cartoon had TONNES more plot holes and animation errors than all 3 live-action films combined.


That's no excuse. You can't hold a half-hour toy commercial to the same standards as a $200 million summer blockbuster. However, I'm willing to bet that the first season actually had fewer plot holes per hour than RotF did.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, at what point in ROTF in the air and space museum do they say they're in Arizona?


They don't actually say it. However, it turns out that there's an "airplane graveyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base near Tucson, Arizona, and that's apparently where the museum teleported to.

Delta Magnus wrote:Besides, why complain about the movies when you could be complaining about the Energon cartoon, which was genuinely dreadful?


Because this is the live-action movie forum. We go elsewhere to complain about Energon.


All of those things can be answered by paying attention to the movie. :roll:
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Delta Magnus » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:25 am

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My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.
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I know what you mean. It looks like they took 5 robots and combined them into one big robot. It doesn't make any sense!
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:44 am

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Delta Magnus wrote:My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

I agree with you, I hate when people act like something is bad just because it's not the original. I think that's one of the major reasons the Star Wars prequels are so hated.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby SlyTF1 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:49 am

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Evil_the_Nub wrote:
Delta Magnus wrote:My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

I agree with you, I hate when people act like something is bad just because it's not the original. I think that's one of the major reasons the Star Wars prequels are so hated.


This. I can understand why people didn't like episode 1 because it was pretty much nothing but boringness until the last 10 minutes, but the fact that people whine about episodes 2 and 3 being "horrible" just makes me think that everyone is stuck in the past and incapable of moving on with their lives.

Same with the TF movies. I understand how people could have been upset about the first one, which didn't have many TF characters and was basically about a bunch of random humans no one cared about trying to find out what's going on, but they really improved upon that in ROTF and DOTM and I really don't understand why people complain about those.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Capt.Failure » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:21 am

SlyTF1 wrote:
Evil_the_Nub wrote:
Delta Magnus wrote:My comment about the original cartoon was aimed at those who are saying "This isn't the original cartoon, and is worse than the original cartoon, partly because of the errors, but mostly for the simple reason that it isn't the original cartoon." Or, as I like to call them, Bay-hating GEEWUNNers.

So, yeah...Please don't overreact.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go accidentally upset someone else. Or intentionally.

I agree with you, I hate when people act like something is bad just because it's not the original. I think that's one of the major reasons the Star Wars prequels are so hated.


This. I can understand why people didn't like episode 1 because it was pretty much nothing but boringness until the last 10 minutes, but the fact that people whine about episodes 2 and 3 being "horrible" just makes me think that everyone is stuck in the past and incapable of moving on with their lives.

Same with the TF movies. I understand how people could have been upset about the first one, which didn't have many TF characters and was basically about a bunch of random humans no one cared about trying to find out what's going on, but they really improved upon that in ROTF and DOTM and I really don't understand why people complain about those.


Because people liked it anyway. Nothing angers forever alone fans than when something they don't like based on the thing they've wrapped their life around is enjoyed despite their opinions.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Cthulhunicron » Wed May 23, 2012 1:41 pm

Just rewatched DOTM. A few things came to mind...

1) If you teleport Cybertron that close to Earth, gravity will cause the two planets to crash into each other. How is that beneficial to anyone?

2) Megatron is discovered in 1897. Sector 7 is later established in the early 20th century to study Megatron and the Allspark, and to keep their existence a secret. Then the Russians and the Americans discover the crashed Autobot ship on the moon in 1961. When investigating the crash site, that guy at NASA says "We're not alone are we, Neil?" to which Neil replies, "No, we're not alone." If the Americans knew about aliens since 1897, then why are they so surprised to find another alien ship? Were those two not informed about NBE-1? Charlotte Mearing does say in the movie that knowledge of the moon crash was on a need to know basis and that it had the topmost security clearance...but I still don't get why people at Sector 7 would be kept in the dark about the crashed Autobot ship, and I don't see why people at NASA would be kept in the dark about the cube and NBE-1.

3) I know this argument has been around for a while, but I still don't like the way Optimus just executes Sentinel at the end. At this point the space bridge, Cybertron, Megatron, and most of the Decepticon army have all been destroyed. Sentinel is no longer a threat. Optimus pretty much just kills him out of spite, which doesn't seem like a very heroic thing to do, if you ask me.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Noideaforaname » Fri May 25, 2012 10:53 am

I'm a bit more perplexed as to how transporting a planet closer makes it any easier to move 6-7 billion slaves there. Or how letting your Decepticon minions freely kill any and all slaves that they'd like is beneficial to the greater goal.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Autobot032 » Fri May 25, 2012 1:07 pm

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Noideaforaname wrote:I'm a bit more perplexed as to how transporting a planet closer makes it any easier to move 6-7 billion slaves there. Or how letting your Decepticon minions freely kill any and all slaves that they'd like is beneficial to the greater goal.


The citizens, the planet, all made of metal. They/it can withstand the torture of the space bridge. Humans cannot. Remember, Dylan died when he touched the control pillar, more specifically, it's energy.

Plus, killing one city full of people, is not all slaves.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Cthulhunicron » Fri May 25, 2012 6:55 pm

If we pretend for a moment that gravity would not cause Earth to crash into Cybertron, then the Decepticons will still need to fly humans from Earth to Cybertron using spaceships. So it seems simpler to conquer Earth, enslave the population, and then open a space bridge whenever you need to transport a ship from Earth to Cybertron and vice versa.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Rushie » Mon May 28, 2012 9:11 am

Motto: "Eh, keep your little planet. I'll outlive it."
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Charlotte Mearing does say in the movie that knowledge of the moon crash was on a need to know basis and that it had the topmost security clearance...but I still don't get why people at Sector 7 would be kept in the dark about the crashed Autobot ship, and I don't see why people at NASA would be kept in the dark about the cube and NBE-1.


Sector Seven did indeed keep everything a secret, even to NASA. When NASA discovered the Ark, there wasn't much Sector Seven could do but co-operate and make sure they stayed on top of things. So S7 worked with them in order to keep the secret from spreading further. It was still unknown to NASA though that one alien and an artifact had already landed on Earth.

I know this argument has been around for a while, but I still don't like the way Optimus just executes Sentinel at the end. At this point the space bridge, Cybertron, Megatron, and most of the Decepticon army have all been destroyed. Sentinel is no longer a threat. Optimus pretty much just kills him out of spite, which doesn't seem like a very heroic thing to do, if you ask me.


"You always were the bravest of us, but you could never make the hard decisions" is a key quote here. Sentinel has proven himself to be untrustworthy and willing to sell out his own troops. Optimus knew he needed to end this treath forever, just as he finally decided to kill Megatron once and for all. Sure, they could've taken Sentinel and put him on trial, but the odds are Decepticons would bust him out and start over. Better to destroy all the leaders while you're at it.

I'm a bit more perplexed as to how transporting a planet closer makes it any easier to move 6-7 billion slaves there. Or how letting your Decepticon minions freely kill any and all slaves that they'd like is beneficial to the greater goal.


I have a feeling there was more to this originally than in the final film. It seems like a planet that big would have need of ALL resources found on earth. It's easily over four times Earth's size and I visualize it could have consumed our planet Unicron-style in order to gather building material.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Capt.Failure » Mon May 28, 2012 10:05 am

Rushie wrote:I have a feeling there was more to this originally than in the final film. It seems like a planet that big would have need of ALL resources found on earth. It's easily over four times Earth's size and I visualize it could have consumed our planet Unicron-style in order to gather building material.


I always assumed they were going to render Earth down into energy to fuel their planetary repair equipment. But that's just me.
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Re: I just attempted to watch DOTM...

Postby Master of Beetus » Mon May 28, 2012 11:20 am

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Well I enjoy the movie and think it's probluy the best of the three. One mans crap is another mans cake.
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