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IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Discuss anything about the Transformers cartoons and comics! You can discuss anything from G1 to Cybertron as well as the comics from Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW and more!

Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Va'al » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:28 pm

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And again, male pronouns are used by default. Therefore introducing an element of gender in the representation of the characters, even if they do not identify with gender themselves (as characters).

In *no way* can anyone claim that introducing more female characters in a male-dominated franchise, universe, and brand is offensive to the male side of the fandom/creators. I'm sorry, but no, that is one thing that does not, and cannot hold. How is this not part of these other 'actual causes'? As Scott said herself, these comics do not exist in a vacuum. Nor does the brand, or the industry. It exists in a society that does distinguish, in a more or less informed manner, between different genders, or different points on the gender spectrum, including through language. And that is why, even though this incarnation of the chracters is 'genderless', the discussion must be had, is being had and needs a nudge in the right direction for full representation.

In other news:


You know what would be awesome

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Can you imagine how happy I would be

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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Va'al » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:40 pm

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
And I think this, written by a female fan, might add to the discussion better than any of us male posters can (due to our position as men). Cyber cat excluded, of course! :D

I think it's important to remember that Mairghread Scott was asked to give her opinion on Arcee's origin. Which she gave. And it's not even a new opinion either: Spotlight Arcee has been a controversial topic of conversation for a long time. Intentional or not, it does say something about gender - the female gender in particular - and it's been marked as offensive by many fans.

Here's a question: are any of you who disagree with Mairghread Scott's comments female? Because your own gender can have a huge impact on how you perceive the entire Transformer gender issue. (Male privilege: look it up.) A lot of guys do not seem to see Transformers being referred to by the male pronoun, Arcee's story, or the lack of female Transformers as a big deal, but ask female fans and you'll hear a different story. Why? Because this is something that directly affects us. Because stories don't exist in a vacuum, they reflect our society. Even the male-pronoun-as-default says something about society and our place in it. It's not something many people, even women, are aware of, but it's inevitable. Talk about Arcee being mad, not because she was turned into a woman, but because she was experimented upon, ignores the fact that the experiment was about turning her into a woman and especially considering she's the only woman she carries all the burden of what it means to be female means in the story. She's the only Transformer whose story has something to say about the female gender and also, the purpose of the story was to introduce a character who was specifically female. If it was just about a character who was the unwilling subject of an experiment, they could have left it at that and ignored gender entirely. That wasn't the case.

Following upon that, a word on "gender politics". The term has been bandied around like it's a new thing, now that more female Transformers are being introduced into IDW, but it isn't. Intentionally or not, it has always been a part of Transformers, since the very first moment female Transformers were introduced in the cartoon or perhaps even before that. Cartoons say something about gender due to male characters on avarage outnumbering female characters three-to-two or more (this is a fact, look it up). They say something about gender by having only one female character (Arcee) in a cast of guys (also known as "the Smurfette Principle"). They say something about gender by having female characters be seperate from the main, male cast (Chromia and gang). It says something about gender when Bob Budiansky wants Ratchet as a female character and is told "no, this is a boy's series - no females allowed". It might not be intended as such, it might not be noticible (especially if it doesn't affect you) because we're so used to it, but gender politics is always there. It's always been a subtle part of the status quo. It doesn't suddenly get implemented because IDW/Hasbro/Scott realise there's a significant female audience (as well as a large part of the existing male audience) which sees the lack of female representation in the comics as a problem and they want to address it. But it's interesting how gender politics only gets thrown around (as an accusation) when it's about the INclusion of female characters (particularly by a female writer), not about the EXclusion of them.

Here's the thing though: the only way gender politics would not have been a part of Transformers would have been if female characters had been included in the series, in equal measures, from the get-go, without the gender issue ever being addressed.

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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby craggy » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:08 pm

whilst I have to point out that both sides of this argument have their extremists, and in general extremists on any side of a "discussion" are often best seen as not representative of the majority, I would like to say that "Gender Politics" are surely the only reason we're still waiting on a proper Arcee toy. That we never got a toy for one of the more prominent new characters introduced in the movie, a major cast member in Season 3 and the only Headmaster from Rebirth not to get a toy...is pretty damned reprehensible. I'd be highly surprised if, for some reason there hadn't been a Blurr toy when the movie came out if we'd not have had at least a couple of new versions of him in that form since.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Dead Metal » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:17 pm

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Va'al wrote:And again, male pronouns are used by default. Therefore introducing an element of gender in the representation of the characters, even if they do not identify with gender themselves (as characters).

In *no way* can anyone claim that introducing more female characters in a male-dominated franchise, universe, and brand is offensive to the male side of the fandom/creators. I'm sorry, but no, that is one thing that does not, and cannot hold. How is this not part of these other 'actual causes'? As Scott said herself, these comics do not exist in a vacuum. Nor does the brand, or the industry. It exists in a society that does distinguish, in a more or less informed manner, between different genders, or different points on the gender spectrum, including through language. And that is why, even though this incarnation of the chracters is 'genderless', the discussion must be had, is being had and needs a nudge in the right direction for full representation.

:???: Please tell me where I stated I was offended by more female characters being introduced.

You have to view this in context, this is not about the whole brand or franchise, if this was then I would have zero problem, this is about the idw G1 universe, the one this comic will be set in. That universe has zero male Transformers, because in the idw G1 universe, the Transformers species is genderless.
And in the idw G1 universe Arcee and Windblade are the only Transformers with a gender till now, all the others have no gender.

Jihaxus wanted to introduce genders into the species, but so far we only got to meet Arcee, it was however implied that there where more that where part of that experiment.

What we also need to keep in mind was that Simon Furman was cut short and couldn't finish his intended story line, there was something bigger going on with Gorlam Prime turning mechanic, people and planet. Even going so far as renaming the planet Cybertron. Gorlam Prime was again an experiment by Jihaxus. Who knows what we would have learned had Furman been able to continue. We do know that he intended for there no not be Primus in this incarnation, so we might have learned that the TF used to be an organic species but evolved into a mechanical one. And after no-longer needing to reproduce sexually dropped the two genders, and keeping the male pronouns as a standard way to refer to each other for one way or another. Maybe because all the females died or something. They did automatically refer to Arcee as a she, without noticing. So who knows?
That's in universe, real world wise it's because this franchise has always been mostly boy focused with most of the characters being traditionally male and as such are referred to as such. Sadly the English language, like many languages differentiates between female and male, hence the He and She.

As to why this is not one of those actual causes is simple:
All those other causes take place in worlds where there exist genders, they take place in worlds that are about us humans. And the human species is made up of females and males in a roughly 50:50 ratio.
There genders are the norm, as thus excluding one gender in favor of the other is abnormal and deplorable.

Here however, we have a species that is naturally genderless, as in no females and no males.

The idw G1 universe is not representative of Transformers as a whole, right from the start it was designed to be separate and different from the others, no genders, no Primus, no Unicron, no religion, no creation myth.
Most of this has changed, especially since Roberts though.
So, yes, creating a new female character for this incarnation and claiming it to be a victory for equality and inclusion is a piss in the wind. It would be a win and wholly justified if this was a comic set in the Aligned continuity, as in Prime, WFC/FOC, and Rescue Bots.

Va'al wrote:In other news:


You know what would be awesome

An Elita-1 that can turn into a truck and bench-press Optimus Prime.

Can you imagine how happy I would be

[heavy breathing]


Image
(from http://mscottwrites.tumblr.com/ )

That is awesome. 8)
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Va'al » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:35 pm

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
But think of this: what voice does the main cast of RID or MTMTE have in your mind when you read the comics?

(And again, the fact that *these* comics have genderless characters is actually not a relevant point - see Sprite's comment below, and this one.)

Well, there's a difference between reading stories in a vacuum and stories in a vacuum, period. Stories don't happen in a vacuum - they are always a reflection of the society the writer lives in, whether that's intentional or not. It's not bad to want to read stories as an escapist something separate from everything else and enjoy it that way and I can understand that some fans do prefer that. However, that doesn't mean stories and their themes can't be discussed from a social perspective or that the social messages they send (whether deliberately so or not) aren't relevant.

If you're referring to politics/social commentary in the stories themselves, well, we've already had that in Megatron Origins and MTMTE. Far as I can see, all it did was provide more depth and detail to the work and made it more enjoyable, not less.

And I wouldn't let people's "gender politics" complaints worry you. I consider the Windblade mini to have huge positive implications for gender in Transformers, but that's outside discussion. I'm sure the comic itself will be entertaining and fun and not at all preachy.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Dead Metal » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:08 pm

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
Va'al wrote:But think of this: what voice does the main cast of RID or MTMTE have in your mind when you read the comics?

My own, they only speak in different voices if I purposely try to give them voices while "practicing" voice acting. That's the sweet thing about this incarnation. Since they have no official voices, you can give them your own, and since they're genderless, you can imagen them with what ever sounding voice you want.
They could sound male, female, mechanical, or even like Gozer from Ghostbusters.
(And again, the fact that *these* comics have genderless characters is actually not a relevant point - see Sprite's comment below, and this one.)

Well, there's a difference between reading stories in a vacuum and stories in a vacuum, period. Stories don't happen in a vacuum - they are always a reflection of the society the writer lives in, whether that's intentional or not. It's not bad to want to read stories as an escapist something separate from everything else and enjoy it that way and I can understand that some fans do prefer that. However, that doesn't mean stories and their themes can't be discussed from a social perspective or that the social messages they send (whether deliberately so or not) aren't relevant.

If you're referring to politics/social commentary in the stories themselves, well, we've already had that in Megatron Origins and MTMTE. Far as I can see, all it did was provide more depth and detail to the work and made it more enjoyable, not less.

And I wouldn't let people's "gender politics" complaints worry you. I consider the Windblade mini to have huge positive implications for gender in Transformers, but that's outside discussion. I'm sure the comic itself will be entertaining and fun and not at all preachy.

It is still relevant, this isn't about subtext or subject matter.

Introducing a new female character is fine, introducing a new female character in the idw G1 verse is fine. Introducing a new female character via a new origin for the gender in the idw verse is fine. But treating that like it's some sort of underdog fight for equality is stupid.

I don't take offense to female characters existing or being introduced, I take offense in this being one sided and used to try and make me feel terrible.

Be inclusive and equal, but go full out and introduce male Transformers along with female characters, especially if you claim you want to be as inclusive as possible.
Have an event in which the whole species is given genders. Assign a gender to characters, at random if you must. Hell, they could have the whole cast be made victim by Jihaxus experiments and then deal with suddenly being female/male.

Whirl could make a fantastic female character, his holomatter avatar is one already anyway. They could also have Ratchet be female (could also tie back into the original plan from the 80s), or Bumblebee (his Holomatter avatar is also female). Or hell, Devastator could be female.
As long as it's well done I'll like it and read it.

As I said, I'm looking forward to this series, I just don't like the way the promotion is currently handled.

But I have a terrible feeling, last time I defended and looked forward tp a brand new character idw announced and promoted months in advance as being a turning point for the whole franchise I ate my words and then cancelled all of my TF comic subscriptions. And he also had a Japanese motive. :-?
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby padfoo » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:58 pm

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I welcome more diversity among Transformers as characters. I like the idea of more female characters and having genders will only increase the character interaction possibilities. I am not expecting female transformers to be overtly different from male characters, but I do want them to bring more perspective to the stories being told. If Bumblebee or Starscream were females it would not change the stories they have been involved in very much, in fact I believe Prime Starscream is female, high heels and all........
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Avensis-Mahiya » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:28 pm

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How about we all calm down for a few minutes, shall we?

I'm going to wait and see about Windblade. At first I was a bit "...eh?" about her, admittedly. But I want to see how she is played out.

And on the topic of Cybertronian sex, gender and reproduction, how about everyone just do what the fandom does and make up something amazing? It doesn't have to be universally accepted, hell, people can have their own personal headcanons when it comes down to it.

We can all be satisfied in the end.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Sabrblade » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:31 pm

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:shock: Simon... Simon, no. No, Simon, why? Why must you do this? Why must you fan the flames further? Image

http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/response-to-mairghread-scott/

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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Henry921 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:42 pm

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Sabrblade wrote::shock: Simon... Simon, no. No, Simon, why? Why must you do this? Why must you fan the flames further? Image

http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/response-to-mairghread-scott/

Image Image Image Image Image



Furman's just done Scott a great service.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby MINDVVIPE » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:38 pm

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All of this has gotten so freaking dumb, wow.

Just so people are clear on where this TF fan stands, I really don't care about this whole stupid debate. They're alien robots, they could be anything, and it could be explained by even more "anything". Just have a story about a new character who happens to be a fembot and have her simply be a different looking TF from the insanely varied forms native cybertronians have anyway. Not so hard to believe that nature would happen to make alien robots that look female, nature is capable of much wierder **** anyway.

Back on topic to Wingblade: I just think the face and head is way too human-inspired. It looks like it's trying way too hard to look kabuki or asian or whatever. Look at Drift. Excluding personality, if you take the swords and asian paintjob away, he really could pass for any sort of robot. Wingblade comprimises her Cybertronian look with all the super clearly obvious human influence in her head design. The rest of her is fine, and as for that arguement about us creating her, we did NOT get to vote for the way her head looks. Just to give some more examples of how bad this head is, it's like Que having the head of einstein, or the ghetto twins looking like they have gold teeth, or the fat nascar bot which makes me think of a fat american who would watch nascar. I can't be alone in wanting more subtlety in their designs, coz I have nothing against ninja like robots. Just gets boring after a while when you keep using the same crayon from the box.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Sabrblade » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:50 am

Motto: "Can't do a job halfway. What's worth doing is worth doing well, I say."
Weapon: Saber Blade
And now he's responding to the (justified) negative feedback his initial response is getting - http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/response-to-mairghread-scott/#comments

Stop it, Simon, please! You're just digging your own grave. :BANG_HEAD:
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Dead Metal » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:32 am

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Sabrblade wrote::shock: Simon... Simon, no. No, Simon, why? Why must you do this? Why must you fan the flames further? Image

http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/response-to-mairghread-scott/

Image Image Image Image Image

Wow, that is a fantastic post he's quoting, exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

And he can have a response to it if he likes it, it might not have been her intent to offend him, but then again it wasn't his intent to offend anyone with his SL Arcee, yet people attack him for it.
And most of his responses to the responses are good and have a point.
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Blurrz wrote:10/10

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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Va'al » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:12 pm

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
No. Just no.

Mansplaining is a bad bad thing, and all his responses are clearly missing the mark. Entirely.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby RiddlerJ » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:45 pm

Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote::shock: Simon... Simon, no. No, Simon, why? Why must you do this? Why must you fan the flames further? Image

http://simonfurman.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/response-to-mairghread-scott/

Image Image Image Image Image

Wow, that is a fantastic post he's quoting, exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

And he can have a response to it if he likes it, it might not have been her intent to offend him, but then again it wasn't his intent to offend anyone with his SL Arcee, yet people attack him for it.
And most of his responses to the responses are good and have a point.


Yeah this.

I have no problem with more female robots in Transformers or even retconning previous works as comics do that all time. For the most part I agree with her viewpoints.

But...

I do feel it was slightly unprofessional to call out Furman by name as part of a some problem that needs to be addressed. Scott is free to see his work anyway she wants and discuss it with the IDW staff, but to hang opinions publically out there of a fellow professional despite how eloquently she phrased it just seems tacky.

Especially since everyone now hates Furman for doing the same thing. He's seeing something she publicly wrote as an attack and is free to feel what he wants about it. Yet he's an ashole who is misreading things and she's exorcising her free speech or whatever.

I just know if a co worker was writing critiques of my work online for all to see, I would be upset or at least feel to need to defend myself. There was any number of more tactful ways should've discussed the issue without dragging someone else personally though this. She isn't just a fan. She's a fellow employee.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Burn » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:57 pm

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If this comic is to truly succeed, it needs a cover or two by Rob Liefeld.
The size of the chests on ALL the characters should detract everyone's attention away from all the other controversy
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Va'al » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:09 pm

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
Can someone please point out how Scott was attacking Furman personally?
She is pointing out that, as a story, by itself, it might even work, and that she took a similar approach to her own. Then, she illustrates what points, to her, as a reader and fellow writer, felt offensive, and I quote:

Do I think Furman was trying to make a statement about human women with Arcee’s origins? No. In fact, the largest share of blame lies with the tokenization of women in the brand in general.



Furman, in response (and note: we're not arguing that he's 'not allowed' to respond, but what he said), makes a value judgement about Scott's professionalism. Further, and this is my biggest concern, he is *telling* readers how they should *interpret* a story that he wrote. If they, the readers, interpret the story in any other way, they are *wrong*.

That is not how storytelling works. At all.
(And just because some readers, women included, did not find Spotlight: Arcee problematic, does not mean that it wasn't to others, whatever the intention behind it.)
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby RiddlerJ » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:36 pm

Va'al wrote:Can someone please point out how Scott was attacking Furman personally?
She is pointing out that, as a story, by itself, it might even work, and that she took a similar approach to her own. Then, she illustrates what points, to her, as a reader and fellow writer, felt offensive, and I quote:

Do I think Furman was trying to make a statement about human women with Arcee’s origins? No. In fact, the largest share of blame lies with the tokenization of women in the brand in general.



Furman, in response (and note: we're not arguing that he's 'not allowed' to respond, but what he said), makes a value judgement about Scott's professionalism. Further, and this is my biggest concern, he is *telling* readers how they should *interpret* a story that he wrote. If they, the readers, interpret the story in any other way, they are *wrong*.

That is not how storytelling works. At all.
(And just because some readers, women included, did not find Spotlight: Arcee problematic, does not mean that it wasn't to others, whatever the intention behind it.)


I don't think she attacked him personally.

But I do think it was wrong to criticize his work at all. If she were a poster like the rest of us, or a professional critic, or even a writer at a different company then it would be a little more tolerable.

But working for the same company and putting out public opinions of another employee's work just brings up all sorts of bad issues. It gives her comments a large amount of weight. She is saying this as an official competent of a company whether the rest of the company thinks the same way or not.


Also, she did dub his work offensive to women. Whether we agree with it or not that's a pretty heavy thing thing in today's climate to accuse someone off. (and I personally hated Furman's spin on Arcee).

Again, she is perfectly entitled to her interpretation of his work, one that most of us probably share, but he is also entitled to his interpretation of what she wrote. If he feels personally attacked, that's his right and she pulled him into this first. I would have the same opinion about Furman if he went on his blog and specifically attacked her work, for Budinsky's or anyone's just out of the blue.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby craggy » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:48 pm

I really enjoy most of Simon Furman's comics. I think he's a good bloke too, but he lost me there when he said he was against retcons, because changing previous work and saying "oh no, this is what really happened" is short-changing readers...


HOW many times did Prime and (especially) Megatron die in the G1 comics?
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Mindmaster » Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:32 pm

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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby TimothyR » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:18 pm

i'm not a fan of wingblade..

i don't like her look.. i don't like her alt mode.. and historically i haven't been a fan of female transformers.. besides G1 movie arcee.. i haven't liked any other female transformer.

in the grand scope of this.. it's not a big deal. for me, not reading the comics.. i see transformers as having genders. they have male features.. they have male personalities, male voices, and act like males.. so in my opinion, i see them as male transformers. one story arc in a comic book isn't going to dissuade me from perceiving the transformers the way i always have.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Hero Alpha » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:34 pm

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Now stupid, annoying "political correctness" is trying to jack up my Transformers universe, I wish people would just stop with PC crap.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Dead Metal » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:57 am

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
Hero Alpha wrote:Now stupid, annoying "political correctness" is trying to jack up my Transformers universe, I wish people would just stop with PC crap.

#-o
Image


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Intah-wib-buls?

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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby craggy » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:17 am

Misogycons.
assembling a Neo-G1/TF:TM cast. Please PM if you have (or know of) the following at a reasonable price: Classics or Henkei Astrotrain, Sunstreaker, Sideswipe, or 3rd Party iGear Ratchet and Ironhide.
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Re: IDW 2014 Sneak Peek - Age of Extinction, Windblade, Dawn of the Autobots

Postby Dead Metal » Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:35 am

Motto: "Don't do drugs, beer's cheaper anyway!"
craggy wrote:Misogycons.

This is their group-shot
Image
Image


Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?

Blurrz wrote:10/10

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