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ILM Versus Weta, who do you think does it better?

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Postby TheMuffin » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:51 pm

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Shadowman wrote:
Dark Zarak wrote:
3DBLASPHEMY wrote:Honestly Pirates is the best GFX piece ever. I am talking of both first and second one. It is completlly well finished and it is impossible to "catch" a failure.


Actually you can catch a really obvious failure.

At the end of Dead Man's Chest, when the Kraken is rising out of the water behind Jack, it looks all faded and washed out like old blue screen stuff used to. Inexcusable.


I never noticed that. But even so, Jones makes up for it.

My mother didn't believe it was CGI, she thought it was a guy in a suit. And I can't blame her.


I was having the same problem to be honest. I still think they had the voice actor in a greenscreen suit with his face uncovered to allow for the expressions.
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Postby AbsumZer0 » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:28 pm

Zuko wrote:
I was having the same problem to be honest. I still think they had the voice actor in a greenscreen suit with his face uncovered to allow for the expressions.


http://www.billnighy.info/2006/07/19/fr ... ree-steps/
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Postby TheMuffin » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:08 pm

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AbsumZer0 wrote:
Zuko wrote:
I was having the same problem to be honest. I still think they had the voice actor in a greenscreen suit with his face uncovered to allow for the expressions.


http://www.billnighy.info/2006/07/19/fr ... ree-steps/


Wow goes to show I sometimes get things right.
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Postby Nightracer GT » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:12 pm

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trence5 wrote:
Dark Zarak wrote:I swear I've had people groan out loud when I've said the new TF movie will make use of CG effects. People have actually suggested that people in costumes would be much more realistic.
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: ARE YOU F()CK!NG KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!? You're jokin'.................. right :roll: ?


No I'm not kidding. This is the depth of pop-culture hatred in universities and my age group in general. This is the depth of groupthink and low IQ of the masses that can happen when a group of normally intelligent people get together.

These people think that anything made for monetary gain is less artistic and therefore less interesting. Everything has to be deep and profound and challenging, and anything made for the masses is not worth their time.

Since CGI can accomplish so much more than a model or puppet, they feel it cheapens the production by lowering the artistic standards. The thrill is gone because it was just "whipped up on a computer" whereas a model or a puppet is actually the result of physical labor and effort, which is more meaningful than looking real.

But these people don't realize the amount of brain-numbing effort that goes into the construction of these things. Staring at Maya 8.0 for the first time is like staring at God.

Yes you can ruin a production by overdoing the CGI. It is much easier to create BIG things with it, and there are a lot of movies out there that are just fat and nothing else. Yes you can rush something and have it look dumb.

Some people just need something to hate.

...including me. :-P
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Postby kjeevah » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:59 pm

to be fair though, maya is a hideous disaster of a train-wreck when it comes to usability and interface design!
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Postby Ironhidensh » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:34 pm

Dark Zarak wrote:These people think that anything made for monetary gain is less artistic and therefore less interesting. Everything has to be deep and profound and challenging, and anything made for the masses is not worth their time.


Well, those people are stupid, moronic, and utterly irrelevant to the rest of humanity.
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Postby TheMuffin » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:40 pm

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kjeevah wrote:to be fair though, maya is a hideous disaster of a train-wreck when it comes to usability and interface design!


Only if you're new to using it. The same can be said for any 3D modeling program though.
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Postby Spoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:52 pm

Ironhidensh wrote:
Dark Zarak wrote:These people think that anything made for monetary gain is less artistic and therefore less interesting. Everything has to be deep and profound and challenging, and anything made for the masses is not worth their time.


Well, those people are stupid, moronic, and utterly irrelevant to the rest of humanity.
That's what I always say about the masses, hench why I am here to look and laugh at them.
Ironhidensh, you are my favorite laughing stock :lol:








Kiddin' kiddin', don't kill me! :P
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Postby Shadowman » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:14 pm

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Zuko wrote:
AbsumZer0 wrote:
Zuko wrote:
I was having the same problem to be honest. I still think they had the voice actor in a greenscreen suit with his face uncovered to allow for the expressions.


http://www.billnighy.info/2006/07/19/fr ... ree-steps/


Wow goes to show I sometimes get things right.


Technically we were both right. It was Bill Nighy in a CGI suit.
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Postby kjeevah » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:43 pm

Zuko wrote:
kjeevah wrote:to be fair though, maya is a hideous disaster of a train-wreck when it comes to usability and interface design!


Only if you're new to using it. The same can be said for any 3D modeling program though.


no, i'm a professional user-experience designer so i know all about interfaces and usability, and also i've used a variety of 3d programs, just trust me on this one
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Postby TheMuffin » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:37 pm

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kjeevah wrote:
Zuko wrote:
kjeevah wrote:to be fair though, maya is a hideous disaster of a train-wreck when it comes to usability and interface design!


Only if you're new to using it. The same can be said for any 3D modeling program though.


no, i'm a professional user-experience designer so i know all about interfaces and usability, and also i've used a variety of 3d programs, just trust me on this one


Huh. Me as well. Solidworks, AutoCAD, Inventor, Rhino3D, 3DSMax, Blender, Lightwave, Maya, SoftImage. etc etc etc. Granted I'm not insanely experience with many of those but I found Maya to at least be easier than 3DSMax. Granted it's interface still sucks compared to the first three or four I put on that list.
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Postby AbsumZer0 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:23 pm

Dark Zarak wrote:No I'm not kidding. This is the depth of pop-culture hatred in universities and my age group in general. This is the depth of groupthink and low IQ of the masses that can happen when a group of normally intelligent people get together.

These people think that anything made for monetary gain is less artistic and therefore less interesting. Everything has to be deep and profound and challenging, and anything made for the masses is not worth their time.

Since CGI can accomplish so much more than a model or puppet, they feel it cheapens the production by lowering the artistic standards. The thrill is gone because it was just "whipped up on a computer" whereas a model or a puppet is actually the result of physical labor and effort, which is more meaningful than looking real.

But these people don't realize the amount of brain-numbing effort that goes into the construction of these things. Staring at Maya 8.0 for the first time is like staring at God.

Yes you can ruin a production by overdoing the CGI. It is much easier to create BIG things with it, and there are a lot of movies out there that are just fat and nothing else. Yes you can rush something and have it look dumb.

Some people just need something to hate.

...including me. :-P


While I don't share the sentiment, I think the anti-CGI backlash is to be expected considering the drift towards full greenscreen films and the way some directors have been sticking CGI everywhere like a blind man in an orgy. There are benefits and drawbacks to all special-effects techniques including CGI. CGI may look more real in some aspects than puppetry, animatronics, or suits, but in others it doesn't. When you need your human characters to make direct physical contact with it, for example.

I've seen Star Wars episodes 1-3 3 or 4 times each and, while admittedly impressive, they still look like Who Framed Roger Rabbit to me but in reverse, with humans in a high-tech ToonTown. There's this pop-out effect that never seems to go away. I think, if Lucas had integrated actual set pieces, models, animatronics, and costumes into the films they would have made the film more believable by helping to bridge the gap between the subtly unrealistic, over-polished green-screen effects. The first Jurassic Park used a mix of animatronics and puppetry along with CGI and even Pirates of the Caribbean uses real set pieces with CGI overlays for the Flying Dutchman.
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Postby Nightracer GT » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:09 pm

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AbsumZer0 wrote:I think the anti-CGI backlash is to be expected considering the drift towards full greenscreen films and the way some directors have been sticking CGI everywhere like a blind man in an orgy. There are benefits and drawbacks to all special-effects techniques including CGI. CGI may look more real in some aspects than puppetry, animatronics, or suits, but in others it doesn't. When you need your human characters to make direct physical contact with it, for example.

I've seen Star Wars episodes 1-3 3 or 4 times each and, while admittedly impressive, they still look like Who Framed Roger Rabbit to me but in reverse, with humans in a high-tech ToonTown. There's this pop-out effect that never seems to go away. I think, if Lucas had integrated actual set pieces, models, animatronics, and costumes into the films they would have made the film more believable by helping to bridge the gap between the subtly unrealistic, over-polished green-screen effects. The first Jurassic Park used a mix of animatronics and puppetry along with CGI and even Pirates of the Caribbean uses real set pieces with CGI overlays for the Flying Dutchman.


The best stuff uses everything at its disposal, whatever works the best for what it's doing. Everyone loves the Mos Eisley Cantina scene. But nobody loves the aliens in the newer films.

The Spiderman movies spring readily to mind as excellent use of CG. At least the second one, but the first had it's moments.

Whenever it's an all green screen flick, I just sit back and soak in the artistic visuals they managed to create. Is there a better way of doing it? Maybe. Sin City needed them. Will 300 need them? Or could everything in that movie be accomplished just by editing real photo plates? At least it will look cool. It's a stylistic choice.


kjeevah wrote:
Zuko wrote:
kjeevah wrote:to be fair though, maya is a hideous disaster of a train-wreck when it comes to usability and interface design!


Only if you're new to using it. The same can be said for any 3D modeling program though.


no, i'm a professional user-experience designer so i know all about interfaces and usability, and also i've used a variety of 3d programs, just trust me on this one


And I'm about to spend 70 grand to get a degree in it. :(

But it can do soooo much.
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Postby skywarp-2 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:55 pm

Glyph wrote:Overall, if we're talking about the entire package, I'd pick WETA. Why? Because their people really work to get inside the things they're designing and making. ILM have a tendency to spin out very similar-looking stuff over and again, presumably because they wrote the book on vehicle and robot FX and seem to rest on their laurels somewhat unless they have a project which really tests them. The recent final renders from the TF stuff, along with Blackout's pulse attack and general digital FX in the trailer, just *scream* ILM.

In pure FX terms, ILM obviously have far more experience with non-organic objects / creatures, while WETA built their reputation on scenery and creature effects. However, when making LotR, WETA had to make the kind of progress and break the kind of boundaries that ILM did when they first started out with Star Wars. Given the opportunity, I would trust WETA to push their capabilities and improve their effects work in order to tackle a huge sci-fi project, more than I would trust ILM to do the same.




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Postby kjeevah » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:36 am

Dark Zarak wrote:
And I'm about to spend 70 grand to get a degree in it. :(

But it can do soooo much.


yes you are right its an amazing piece of software, they just need to hire some interface designers to work on it thats all.

also..

70 grand!??!?!!? are you fucking kidding me?!?!?! oh my god you need to move out of that rubbish country. in england it costs £1.5k (ie about $2.5k) a year fixed fee, no matter what university you go to, and unless you are rich your local education authority pays that for you! so my interactive media degree (which included some maya) cost me a grand total of...

£0

like i said too that is a fixed fee no matter what university you are at

seriously come over here as a foreign student, even foreign students who get no government funding at all only have to pay £10k/term, whether you are at a shitty 70s block place or oxford or cambridge! so you can do your degree a the best place in the country for $50k and get to take trips all around europe while you are doing it, for $50 for a return flight each time!
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Postby Nightracer GT » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:49 am

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kjeevah wrote:seriously come over here as a foreign student, even foreign students who get no government funding at all only have to pay £10k/term, whether you are at a shitty 70s block place or oxford or cambridge! so you can do your degree a the best place in the country for $50k and get to take trips all around europe while you are doing it, for $50 for a return flight each time!


Wish I knew about that 6 months ago. Shit.


It's a done deal. Less than two weeks starting. I'll just be paying loans forever.

And it's a private school. The president worked on Sonic the Hedgehog back in the day. 8)
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Postby trence5 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:26 pm

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Dark Zarak wrote: Staring at Maya 8.0 for the first time is like staring at God.
:PRAY: :PRAY: Amen to that (though I'm more of a Cinema 4D man myself but that will probably change cause the big "M" of the big 2 is nearly everywhere) ;)^ ;)^
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Postby trence5 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:29 pm

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Zuko wrote:
kjeevah wrote:
Zuko wrote:
kjeevah wrote:to be fair though, maya is a hideous disaster of a train-wreck when it comes to usability and interface design!


Only if you're new to using it. The same can be said for any 3D modeling program though.


no, i'm a professional user-experience designer so i know all about interfaces and usability, and also i've used a variety of 3d programs, just trust me on this one


Huh. Me as well. Solidworks, AutoCAD, Inventor, Rhino3D, 3DSMax, Blender, Lightwave, Maya, SoftImage. etc etc etc. Granted I'm not insanely experience with many of those but I found Maya to at least be easier than 3DSMax. Granted it's interface still sucks compared to the first three or four I put on that list.
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Postby Phategod1 » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:04 pm

I gotta go with WETA most of the Organic stuff they do is amazing. I'd love to see how they handle Non-organic things like the TF's
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Postby derob » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:03 am

Phategod1 wrote:I gotta go with WETA most of the Organic stuff they do is amazing. I'd love to see how they handle Non-organic things like the TF's

you mean u wanted WETA on this for curiosity's sake? not that i dont trust WETA but i wont let them experiment on TF first. But i think WETA could make a better godzilla remake (the classic that is)
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Postby Nightracer GT » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:45 am

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foifoi05 wrote:
Phategod1 wrote:I gotta go with WETA most of the Organic stuff they do is amazing. I'd love to see how they handle Non-organic things like the TF's

you mean u wanted WETA on this for curiosity's sake? not that i dont trust WETA but i wont let them experiment on TF first. But i think WETA could make a better godzilla remake (the classic that is)


No, he's just saying that he would be interested to see, in a hypothetical situation, how WETA would handle the Bayformers.


I think they would be relatively the same. ILM is so awesome when it comes to stuff like this. I'd leave WETA to the organic stuff. They must love to do all that painstaking rendering, lighting dynamic work, and I say let them have it.
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Postby derob » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:13 am

sorry if it sounded rude. Anyway, i think it would be great if both could team up for this. While ILM is great doing CGs in a realworld setting,... WETA will do the Cybertron scene werein everything starts from scratch, i can imagine now an epic battle of bots viewed from the top ala LOTR
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Postby hot rod 907 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:03 pm

Weta always looks real, but only when set in a real world setting. ILM always looks fake, but can do more things that couldn't have been done before the 21st centuary. They make a good team for a movie like this.
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Postby Nightracer GT » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:47 pm

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hot rod 907 wrote:Weta always looks real, but only when set in a real world setting.


Real worlds like Middle Earth, crazy jungle islands where dinosaurs are still alive, and future settings with robots taking over?

:-P
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Postby derob » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:02 am

Dark Zarak wrote:
hot rod 907 wrote:Weta always looks real, but only when set in a real world setting.


Real worlds like Middle Earth, crazy jungle islands where dinosaurs are still alive, and future settings with robots taking over?

:-P

i also thought of that :D
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