Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Listen very carefully, I'm gonna say this only once: It's the stores' fault for overordering the first waves, and thus not ordering the later waves with newer figures. Enough stock of a certain item group or assortment = no need to order.

And Hasbro will not go bankrupt any time soon. True, they're restructuring as we speak (several TF team members got the axe or were moved to other departments), but I don't see Hasbro falling just because Transformers "is failing miserably". But I digress...

Thanks for the reply! But on the flipside of what you said, the national chains are most likely either A) ordering in bulk to reduce the number of orders they have to create per year (thus ordering more of wave 1), or B) trying to secure better pricing by ordering so much of wave 1. I appreciate your point, but if a kid snaps a toy in two and creates a choking hazard, it's really not the kid's responsibility (in this country) to not break the toy. It's up to Hasbro to prevent user stupidity, and thus I put a greater impetus on Hasbro to ensure that more variety hits store shelves.

And I 100% agree about Transformers not ending Hasbro (I did put the "restructure" comment in there), but if you look at the toys objectively, Hasbro has a keen interest in moving away from transforming Transformers. Historically speaking, they've done lots of non-transforming Transformers, and it makes one wonder what generates more revenue, the merchandise or actual toys? My point is that poor "Transformer" sales will inevitably lead to more non-Transformer products, which is a shame because the inevitable conclusion will be that "non-Transformers are cheaper to make and sell better", even though that statement may be far from the truth. Of course from a collector's P.O.V., as I'm not the target demographic.

Sorry to clutter this message post with this stuff, but the over-reliance on 3-4 characters to carry the entire toy line is a bit troubling. (from the point of view that it doesn't seem to be working well at retail)

Seibertron wrote:

MetroSUplex wrote:I'm concerned it's this old way of thinking that's going to bankrupt Hasbro (or at the very least force them to "restructure" the boys brand). Ever think about starting a mass email campaign of sending Hasbro images of local toy shelves? Sometimes I think, "if only Hasbro exec's could see all the unsold Bumblebee's... Maybe they'd start making smarter business decisions of what to put out there."

I'd love to start a collection of photos that you guys provide in a topic here on Seibertron.com. If enough of you came up with pictures showing the toy aisles in the way many of you describe, and if we turn it into a news story, I'm sure that the pics would make their way to the powers-that-be at Hasbro.

That would be interesting to see.

Seibertron wrote:I'd love to start a collection of photos that you guys provide in a topic here on Seibertron.com. If enough of you came up with pictures showing the toy aisles in the way many of you describe, and if we turn it into a news story, I'm sure that the pics would make their way to the powers-that-be at Hasbro.

I had this idea a bit ago, as I read a lot of talk about "bumblebee's warming shelves" on here. I'm actually surprised this isn't already a topic. I was half-expecting someone to say, "Yeah, we're already doing this! Go here ____".

I would add that we should remove identifying information about the stores. I wouldn't want to cause trouble for specific stores, but would rather the focus be on how badly certain toys are selling, universally and across the country.

It'd be nice to get photos from a variety of states, as I'm constantly sitting here wondering, "Maybe Optimus and Bumblebee sell very well outside of IL... ?"

Someone want to start a thread on this? I'm new, so I wouldn't want to botch anything up.

So in the future, when someone makes the comment, "Ughhh, Bumblebee sucks and my store has 2,000 of them on the shelves.." we could say, "GREAT - go to THREAD ___ and post your pic. Only you can help prevent Bumblebee supersaturation."

Mindmaster wrote:Like what JelZe said, it's not Hasbro's fault; the blame is on retailers for overstocking them.

Hasbro put out 2 Leader-size figures recently (the ones with the flip weapon features and whatnot). Guess which 2 characters. So, according to what you guys are telling me, it's the RETAILER'S fault for ordering sets of Bumblebee and Optimus from a choice of... Bumblebee and Optimus.

All I'm recommending, based on the dozens, if not hundreds, of stores I've hunted at is for Hasbro to consider the possibility that Bumblebee and Optimus are NOT carrying the brand. Just consider it. For a moment. And release more figures like Trailbreaker or Hoist or Huffer or Brawn.

("But Metro! Those first three are already coming out, so your point must be moot!" ) Well, if they sit on the shelves as long as FOC Optimus has, I guess my point really is moot.

One other thing: if a national chain like Target wanted to order THOUSANDS of figures from you, would you REALLY tell them, "hold on... order less and then make future orders." That's NEVER going to happen. It's wishful thinking to say otherwise. Hasbro will NOT refuse large orders of Wave 1.

A better solution is to ensure more variety in Wave 1, so that they actually MOVE.

(PS: Love the Morpheus pic response! And you're right about that! I have a giant Cybertron Starscream! Nice fig... but I always wondered why he was bigger than Cybertron Metroplex - which I desperately wanted to see done proper! Things have been like this for a while, and I seriously wonder if 3-5 sizes of a figure, per line, is the best way to sell a toy line! I mean, do parents really reply with, "Well, yes you own Optimus already Timmy... but I can see that this one is 2.5 inches bigger, and therefore a must buy!"??? )

MetroSUplex wrote:

Mindmaster wrote:Like what JelZe said, it's not Hasbro's fault; the blame is on retailers for overstocking them.

Hasbro put out 2 Leader-size figures recently (the ones with the flip weapon features and whatnot). Guess which 2 characters. So, according to what you guys are telling me, it's the RETAILER'S fault for ordering sets of Bumblebee and Optimus from a choice of... Bumblebee and Optimus.

All I'm recommending, based on the dozens, if not hundreds, of stores I've hunted at is for Hasbro to consider the possibility that Bumblebee and Optimus are NOT carrying the brand. Just consider it. For a moment. And release more figures like Trailbreaker or Hoist or Huffer or Brawn.

("But Metro! Those first three are already coming out, so your point must be moot!" ) Well, if they sit on the shelves as long as FOC Optimus has, I guess my point really is moot.

One other thing: if a national chain like Target wanted to order THOUSANDS of figures from you, would you REALLY tell them, "hold on... order less and then make future orders." That's NEVER going to happen. It's wishful thinking to say otherwise. Hasbro will NOT refuse large orders of Wave 1.

A better solution is to ensure more variety in Wave 1, so that they actually MOVE.

(PS: Love the Morpheus pic response! And you're right about that! I have a giant Cybertron Starscream! Nice fig... but I always wondered why he was bigger than Cybertron Metroplex - which I desperately wanted to see done proper! Things have been like this for a while, and I seriously wonder if 3-5 sizes of a figure, per line, is the best way to sell a toy line! I mean, do parents really reply with, "Well, yes you own Optimus already Timmy... but I can see that this one is 2.5 inches bigger, and therefore a must buy!"??? )

@ MetroSUplex this is about a rare drangon transformer which just came out with its own toy line that has its leader which is Predaking which gets his own leader class toy other than the many Megatron leader class toys. And then you start talking about deluxe and scout and voyager sized bumblebees and Optimus.

But the thing is this: the stores don't know or care who the actual characters are. As long as something sells they're happy, if it doesn't, their loss. Ever checked the price tags in stores closely? They should say something like "TF Prime Deluxe Asst", without regard to any specific character, that's the catch. Part of the blame there lies in the store's ignorance and indeed Hasbro's business practice and ignorance.

Thing is, your suggestion of "more variety in the first wave" is a double-edged sword. The regular case breakdown allows for doubles. If that's taken away, with each figure in a standard case being unique, we'd be rushing through the lines at a really fast pace, with nothing new for 6 months to a year. That could lead to disinterest and ultimately cancellation. I'm seeing it happen right now here with Kre-O

Seibertron wrote:I'd love to start a collection of photos that you guys provide in a topic here on Seibertron.com. If enough of you came up with pictures showing the toy aisles in the way many of you describe, and if we turn it into a news story, I'm sure that the pics would make their way to the powers-that-be at Hasbro.

I've actually noticed less Bumblebees sticking around nowadays. He's still there, but there's only a couple of them now as opposed to enough to rename it "the Bumblebee section". If I were only just getting into TFs now I probably wouldn't consider BB an exceptional shelf-warmer.

Not that my stores are a standard by any means.

@Eagleblaster: Errr, thanks for joining the discussion and telling me it... has no merit? Seriously, though, I guess I'm not being clear in my original message: I'm excited about the new Metroplex figure. You know why? Because it's a character that is actually SUPPOSED to have that scale.

I'm just asking why Hasbro is intent on only releasing 2-3 characters in various sizes, when the piles of excess, unsold figures of said characters don't seem to go anywhere (including all the unsold VOYAGER PREDAKING'S in every store I go to). Maybe Unicron would fare as badly... but just imagine more choice in toy stores than Optimus, Bumblebee, and now Predaking. Yeah, it's a little off topic, which is why I apologized for this tangent in my original post.

I think we should email Hasbro and demand another Predaking that's even bigger. I mean, why stop now? Optimus has 7 Prime/Beast Hunter molds, I believe. I am coming around to your point and would join you on a quest to see 4 more Predakings. Let's do it. (No insult intended - just having fun with the conversation! Please don't take any of this badly! Much love to fellow collector's!!!! ) ).

@JelZe GoldRabbit:
I think we're saying the same thing in different words, as I think we generally want the same things. Store ignorance is there. On the other hand, I'm not angry at stores because a given store will order thousands of products and it's unreasonable to tell stores to pay attention to details such as "collectors want Hard Shell!!!" Additionally, Hasbro determines the wave assortment, right? This is the crux of my issue. I was discussing it with the wife and seeing a clear problem: back in the old days, stores could return excess inventory to the wholesaler/manufacturer, so theoretically, it would mean that Hasbro would have to take back thousands of unsold Bayverse Bumblebee's! But today, the store takes the loss, and Hasbro loses money in the form of reduced orders. This system is a result of hard economic times, but there's inherent flaw and danger in such a system - while Hasbro is protected from heavy losses, it's also crushing growth (as I see it).

And I also agree with your second point: all unique and things go bad, as well. I'm envisioning scarcity where it belongs - in the "popular" figures that don't actually sell, while troop-builders like Hard Shell see more releases/more-wave-inclusions. My stores are stuck with Commander Predakings and Optimus's - the Hard Shell's are now gone. Those other 2 aren't going anywhere any time soon.

My Transformers business model would be a reactive one: A) make Wave 1 include LOTS of variety, B) MEASURE which figures sell best, C) re-release those figures (conservatively, as to not incur a loss in terms of overestimating popularity), and D) rinse, repeat. If stores determine SKU's and will not agree to character-specific SKU's to allow this measurement, there's another option: more focus testing with kids - see which figures the focus groups gravitate toward and err on their selections, rather than on an ill-conceived, religious faith in the Optimus/Bumblebee combo. Though, as Noideaforaname pointed out, maybe the Bumblebee epidemic is getting better? Wait... the new Generations line includes... OH YEAH! BUMBLEBEE AND OPTIMUS (technically, Orion). HOLY DUALITY BE PRESERVED, BY PRIMUS!!!!

@ Noideaforaname:
I was thinking the same, actually! Bumblebee is a poor example on my part - I was thinking about the Bayverse toys cause Five Below is stuffed with Bumblbebee's. Nowadays, I'd say it's more like pegs of Commander Predaking, Commander Optimus, Legion Bumblebee (Beast Hunter), and Legion Airachnid. Oh, and of course, Weaponizers (you know the ones). And the Optimus and Predaking Beast Hunter Voyagers. The legion vehicles aren't moving either.

To contrast and push the point to Hasbro: Target sells Springer/Blitzwing, but they are never in stock. Compared to Generations FOC Soundwave/Soundblaster, which haven't moved much. I feel like this was an obvious result: G1-characters are more popular with collectors, and I'm seeing more collectors buying than kids.

(Love that Hubcap customization in your sig! I'm sure it's not him, but the driver looks like one of the MAD spies!)

MetroSUplex wrote:I'm excited about the new Metroplex figure. You know why? Because it's a character that is actually SUPPOSED to have that scale.

...with Legends figures, themselves sometimes out of scale.

Irrelevant post is irrelevant.

Maybe Unicron would fare as badly...

Well, I dunno about that. Maybe, maybe not.

I think we should email Hasbro and demand another Predaking that's even bigger.

I mean, why stop now? Optimus has 7 Prime/Beast Hunter molds, I believe. I am coming around to your point and would join you on a quest to see 4 more Predakings. Let's do it. .

There are three different versions of the Beast Hunters Optimus: the Cyberverse Commander, the Voyager, and the larger class. As for scheduled for release versions, there's the upcoming Cyberverse Commander repaint in a very dreadful deco. Which makes four versions total. Not seven.

Mindmaster wrote:

MetroSUplex wrote:I'm excited about the new Metroplex figure. You know why? Because it's a character that is actually SUPPOSED to have that scale.

...with Legends figures, themselves sometimes out of scale.

Yeah, definitely a big pet peeve, but you know the flipside to that conversation is: "it'd cost hundreds/thousands of dollars to make an actual Metro that was to scale with Deluxes and would be cost-prohibitive to produce, blah, blah blah." The phrase, "beggers can't be choosers" comes to mind. Also, when I see an ugly dude with an ugly wife. BURN!

Maybe Unicron would fare as badly...

Well, I dunno about that. Maybe, maybe not.

It's the decisive way you say that... Haha! But yeah, I was opening this up to a complaint about how many times they released that Energon Unicron mold. At the time, I thought it was annoying seeing so many Unicron's @ TRU. In retrospect, I think I should have bought one when it was easily available.

I think we should email Hasbro and demand another Predaking that's even bigger.

Pasted the malfunctioning image into the browser to check it and... well, I'm sure I can find someone else to make up for your lack of signature on that Predaking petition! Strike that - I say we get a Predaking/Bumblebee/Optimus triple-changer. Then Hasbro can simplify production even more, by releasing three separate, "popular" toys as ONE!

I mean, why stop now? Optimus has 7 Prime/Beast Hunter molds, I believe. I am coming around to your point and would join you on a quest to see 4 more Predakings. Let's do it. .

There are three different versions of the Beast Hunters Optimus: the Cyberverse Commander, the Voyager, and the larger class. As for scheduled for release versions, there's the upcoming Cyberverse Commander repaint in a very dreadful deco. Which makes four versions total. Not seven.

We're talking about instances of the character, not scale, right?
1) Weaponizer Optimus
2) Voyager Optimus
3) Commander Optimus (with guns)
4) Commander Optimus (with swords)
5) Commander Beast Hunter Optimus
6) Upcoming Commander Beast Hunter Optimus with shield ("dreadful" green guy)
7) Voyager Beast Hunter Optimus
8.) Upcoming Leader Beast Hunter Optimus (coming out with this Predaking)

So I was wrong: EIGHT Optimi. And if you want to be technical, the BBTS-exclusive Dark Energon Prime Voyager adds to nine (*but I'd be willing to not count him, as he's exclusive to a website, and not in stores).

I dunno... I feel like there's more... OH YEAH! The legion battle-station, Optimus Maximus!!! I just got that one from Ross for $20. Crazy, I know, but I'm thinking I can somehow mod him into an extension of Metroplex! I'll think of something (cause Optimus riding himself rubs me in all the wrong ways! )

Technically speaking, Optimus Maximus is a separate entity (if it could be called that).

@MetroSUplex im going to finish this by saying That titan metroplex is no where in scale with any transformers. It's soppesed to be like six feet tall to be close being accurate. I don't think you even saw the Transformers prime tv cartoon the way you sound. That new leader Predaking supreme toy is way more in scale than that metroplex. If you wasn't blind you would have noticed that predaking has his own brand dedicated to him. Metroplex don't have is own show and brand symbol thing. Which makes Predaking way more deserving of getting a leader class figure.

Correction: Metroplex should be around 12 feet tall to be accurate

MetroSUplex wrote:@ Noideaforaname:
I was thinking the same, actually! Bumblebee is a poor example on my part - I was thinking about the Bayverse toys cause Five Below is stuffed with Bumblbebee's. Nowadays, I'd say it's more like pegs of Commander Predaking, Commander Optimus, Legion Bumblebee (Beast Hunter), and Legion Airachnid. Oh, and of course, Weaponizers (you know the ones). And the Optimus and Predaking Beast Hunter Voyagers. The legion vehicles aren't moving either.

To contrast and push the point to Hasbro: Target sells Springer/Blitzwing, but they are never in stock. Compared to Generations FOC Soundwave/Soundblaster, which haven't moved much. I feel like this was an obvious result: G1-characters are more popular with collectors, and I'm seeing more collectors buying than kids.

(Love that Hubcap customization in your sig! I'm sure it's not him, but the driver looks like one of the MAD spies!)

Huh, the BH Legions are only just hitting my stores (the previous Prime waves didn't do so well) and even then I've only seen BB and Airachnid. Not an encouraging sign if those two are potential shelfwarmers.

I think most of the other stuff have been moving at a decent enough rate here (granted I'm not exactly following these lines anymore), except the BH Voyagers. If they ever made anyone but Prime and Predaking, you wouldn't know it going by the stores. Their Cyberverse counterparts are sticking around, too, but at least I'm seeing Shockwave and Hardshell and the others.
I can't help but think the Ultras will shelfwarm pretty badly, given OP and Predaking's track record, but at least they're it and not holding back any other Ultras.

(And the Hubcap in my sig isn't a custom, he's been Photoshopped into one of my favorite movies, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit")

Noideaforaname wrote:(And the Hubcap in my sig isn't a custom, he's been Photoshopped into one of my favorite movies, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit")

That movie defined my childhood antics.

@Mindmaster:

I had a feeling you'd say Maximus is a separate entity. In fact, it makes me feel better that you say that. I try to tell myself the same thing whenever I see him... but it still begs the question of "Why?" This conversation has given me quite the epiphany: the BB/Optimus insanity can be said to have reached a fever-pitch when Hasbro is officially releasing BB's riding inside of BB's, and Optimi riding inside of Optimi. It's so epic fail you'd think I was making this up...

@Eagleblaster:

Is it wrong that your description of an accurate-scale Metroplex made me drool uncontrollably? Can we have a cosplayer go to a convention as Metroplex, and I bring my deluxes, and then I just station the hell out him??!?

You must be half-right about my Prime watching - I only had access to the first 2 seasons via Netflix, and am forced to resort to YouTube for the newer season (cable is expensive, foo! ). I've only watched Ep. 1 of S3, so I am in the dark about how big Predaking is. Course, I can't imagine 12 episodes to be enough to warrant a toyline to the guy...

And Prime is officially my fave TF now. I'm as shocked as anyone else, but it's actually BETTER than G1 - if that gives you some reference as to where I'm coming from. I would prefer a Leader Meg's because I think Prime actually depicting him with TEETH, for a change (and I don't mean that literally - the sharp fangs are a bit silly). I like the G1 Megatron a lot, and Prime's Megatron is like the G1 with the parental controls removed. Imagine if they made a big Meg's that could station some legion figs? Might be kinda neat... Ehhh, but you're probably right about Predaking - when I see him in S3, I might be all, "F*CK YEAH! I'M BUYING EVERY PREDAKING I MEET FROM NOW ON!!!!! NO MORE SURPLUS IN ILLINOIS!!! I'VE GOT THIS!!!!"

@Noideaforaname:

I can't remember clearly...I think wave 1 is BB, Airachnid, and Twinstrike. If you haven't seen Twinstrike, it's because he's the only figure worth a damn in that lot! And that's not really my opinion -it's proven by local sales. I actually wondered if Hasbro purposefully released Twinstrike in limited quantities. But nowadays, I see Twin enough, so maybe my local TRU's ordered too much of Wave 1? I think it depends on the TRU I go to: some stores will put the small legion-classes at the very top of the display rack - so kids have no chance of buying them, as they can't even reach them. If a store does that, it's likely you'll find the whole assortment of wave 1. Or maybe it's lazy collectors who are so used to bending down, and thus prematurely end their search if legions are at eye level?

Dang!!! I haven't seen any Commander Shockwaves yet! The BH Voyagers are supposed to include Voyager Shockwave now - but he's pretty rare. Buy on sight, cause they sell out. Optimus and Predaking shelf warm.

Hence my original tangent - out of all the characters to turn into Ultra class, they chose two of the worst ones (in terms of actual sales potential).

That's not knocking anyone's personal attachment to Predaking, or the very valid argument that Predaking SHOULD be large. My confusion is to why Predaking needs to be both VOYAGER and ULTRA. Especially with how they've been released almost back-to-back like this (it'd be better if Ultra Pred came out later, IMO).

Mark my words, in a few weeks, you'll start seeing THREE versions of Predaking warm the shelves... and that's a pity. I'm dying to see how a giant G1 Classic will do in stores (i.e. Metroplex). My theory is that they'll sell pretty well - probably to a lot of prospectors (scalpers). On the one hand, if retailers order Metro in bulk, we'll see some decent prices and mark-downs. On the other hand, if they order limited Metro's like they have been Springer/Blitzwing, they'll not only sell out, but fetch heavy prices on eBay.

(Roger Rabbit is an awesome movie! I was just asking my wife why they didn't sequel that sucker back in the day! I see the characters now... for some reason, one of them looked like Scooby Doo before you told me all of that! Still, you COULD custom your Hubcap - just print that image on a glossy sticker and apply? I mean, if Reprolabels can do it...)

@All:
So while Hasbro might be scratching its head about why they aren't selling more TF figures, the real tragedy is that the scalpers are making double/triple on some of these figures - money that Hasbro should earn and put toward making more classics/generations/Masterpieces. And I say that because I see more adults buying TF's now than I see kids. When they buy from eBay, they pay more than the figures are worth - what if Hasbro made better quality figs (i.e. Takara-style) and charged eBay prices?

And thankfully, it should be added that Michael Bay will once again pump a lot of blood into the TF brand with his next movie, much to my dismay. I've read his statements about the franchise, and I'm disappointed (as always) to learn he's another arrogant director that wants to "fix" an 80s brand by making it good. It's too bad TF Prime isn't doing as much for the franchise as Bay has, as Prime is actually intelligent, witty, and well-animated. Bay mentioned doing something in the next movie that fans will be happy with, and I'm dying to find out what he thinks that means.

More BB action? Maybe they'll consider that idea of combining BB and Optimus? SUPER MODE??? As crazy as it sounds, I can totally see Bay doing that. Might even turn out to be cool. It's too bad he'd be stealing the idea from previous TF series and taking credit for it, though.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY

Made the right call waiting for this guy.

Wish I had waited but I didn't know about the Ultimate Class.
I have the Voyager which came with two right dragon legs. Looks weird with one of the kneecaps facing the wrong direction.

I'm also pretty glad I held off on the voyager figure for this one, although it's just as well it looks as good as it does when it's that simple. But I suppose if they were to make it more complex it may not have been quite so good looking.

I'll admit I initially found the placement of his wings in robot mode a little awkward, but the more I look the more I like it just because it's different. Given the size of his prospective opponents (deluxe and voyager class) they could actually serve a purpose at that height, shielding him from low attacks or wafting his enemies away.

The only thing that I'd like to have seen done to improve this guy would be an articulated tail in addition to the orange paint applied to it on the box art.

After seeing the size difference between Optimus Prime's Ultra class and the Voyager, it doesn't look like there is that huge of a size difference in Predaking's case. Unless I just need a video to be reassured.