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Hey, you know what would be rad? If we talked about Giant. That'd be pretty rad. Build a bridge and get over it. Here's the facts, opinions are not facts. We can go back and forth all day about shoulda coulda wouldas. For what? This is what's happening, this is what is real. Whatever happens in the land of make believe shouldn't concern any of us.

So Giant is finally coming! F#CK YES!

Flux Convoy wrote:Hey, you know what would be rad? If we talked about Giant. That'd be pretty rad. Build a bridge and get over it. Here's the facts, opinions are not facts. We can go back and forth all day about shoulda coulda wouldas. For what? This is what's happening, this is what is real. Whatever happens in the land of make believe shouldn't concern any of us.

So Giant is finally coming! F#CK YES!

I'd love to talk about Giant, but this thread is about KO Giant, unfortunately. it's a sad reality that people get behind these KOs, even when the real product hasn't hit the shelves. I'm really looking forward to my Green Giant arriving, and only hope that people who buy this instead get burned with a wealth of QC issues.

Banjo-Tron wrote: I'd love to talk about Giant, but this thread is about KO Giant, unfortunately. it's a sad reality that people get behind these KOs, even when the real product hasn't hit the shelves. I'm really looking forward to my Green Giant arriving, and only hope that people who buy this instead get burned with a wealth of QC issues.

I've owned several KOs. Know what's nice about them? Not a damn thing. The "great" CHMS stuff is crap. Quality is not present in those figures. The battle tanker KO, also crap. If you want quality, you pay for it. If you want some cheeseball approximation of the actual thing, hey go for it. TF collecting and by extension of this current generation, good third party product is and has always been a pay to play affair. You get what you pay for. With KO figures you, more often than not, get much less.

On a different note, my bad. Haha, I thought I was in a different thread altogether. Totally my fault.

Rated X wrote:Drug research is usually founded by private donations from wealthy individuals or federal research grants. In other words, free money by the millions. The reason FDA approved drugs cost so much is pure profit. The relationship between congress and pharmaceutical industries runs deep. What the FDA approves or doesn’t approve is usually based on political favors common throughout big business. Go to Canada and see how many “generic” versions of expensive drugs are sold at half the price. They are all tested and approved by the Canadian version of the FDA. They are basically KO’s that are made out of the jurisdiction of the FDA. And they all work just as well. And just like KO Transformers, they are easily mail ordered into the USA.

I don't know where you're getting your info from X. I work in the medical industry, have for 20 years now, and you obviously have NO idea how the system works. Do you know how Chemistry works? How drug patents work? Anything along those lines?!

You think Pfizer is going to spend MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dollars to come up with a drug and then give that formula away? You're out of your mind. Every drug provided to the FDA has to be provided the formula. That formula is public which is why the drug company is provided exclusivity rights for 5 years in the states. If not for that exclusivity clause, you would have generics popping up in the states after a week. You know what would happen then? NO NEW MEDICATIONS!!!
No profit = No Research = No Medications

If the rest of the world played by the same rules, those new "non-generic" medications that cost $100 a pill in the States, would end up costing only $.10 at release because they make the money back over time. Knock-offs of any kind use the same economic principles.


...And the FDA doesn't just exist to help companies make "pure profit". If you want to volunteer to test a drug or eat some random berry found in the amazon, go right ahead. I'll call your next of kin when you croak from a tumor caused by some undiscovered chemical reaction.

BulletSponge wrote:

Rated X wrote:Drug research is usually founded by private donations from wealthy individuals or federal research grants. In other words, free money by the millions. The reason FDA approved drugs cost so much is pure profit. The relationship between congress and pharmaceutical industries runs deep. What the FDA approves or doesn’t approve is usually based on political favors common throughout big business. Go to Canada and see how many “generic” versions of expensive drugs are sold at half the price. They are all tested and approved by the Canadian version of the FDA. They are basically KO’s that are made out of the jurisdiction of the FDA. And they all work just as well. And just like KO Transformers, they are easily mail ordered into the USA.

I don't know where you're getting your info from X. I work in the medical industry, have for 20 years now, and you obviously have NO idea how the system works. Do you know how Chemistry works? How drug patents work? Anything along those lines?!

You think Pfizer is going to spend MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dollars to come up with a drug and then give that formula away? You're out of your mind. Every drug provided to the FDA has to be provided the formula. That formula is public which is why the drug company is provided exclusivity rights for 5 years in the states. If not for that exclusivity clause, you would have generics popping up in the states after a week. You know what would happen then? NO NEW MEDICATIONS!!!
No profit = No Research = No Medications

If the rest of the world played by the same rules, those new "non-generic" medications that cost $100 a pill in the States, would end up costing only $.10 at release because they make the money back over time. Knock-offs of any kind use the same economic principles.


...And the FDA doesn't just exist to help companies make "pure profit". If you want to volunteer to test a drug or eat some random berry found in the amazon, go right ahead. I'll call your next of kin when you croak from a tumor caused by some undiscovered chemical reaction.

Im talking about Canadian drugs that do the same thing without the big name. I got older family members who order them and don’t buy s**t from the US. The so called research fees your talking about for drugs that already exist are the equivalent to a toll booth on a 20 year old highway. Sure some of the profit goes to new research (or new highways) but a majority goes into CEOs pockets or political campaigns. A lot of medical funding comes from philanthropists, That’s why families always recommend donating money to certain research groups at funerals

X just likes to argue, stop feeding him excuses to rant.

Lets get this thread back on topic, shall we...?

NOS wrote:X just likes to argue, stop feeding him excuses to rant.

Lets get this thread back on topic, shall we...?

Actually I'd like to get slightly more off-topic and ask that KO threads are put in their own area, as I don't see why they should be discussed in the same area as 3rd-party toys.

Flux Convoy wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote: I'd love to talk about Giant, but this thread is about KO Giant, unfortunately. it's a sad reality that people get behind these KOs, even when the real product hasn't hit the shelves. I'm really looking forward to my Green Giant arriving, and only hope that people who buy this instead get burned with a wealth of QC issues.

I've owned several KOs. Know what's nice about them? Not a damn thing. The "great" CHMS stuff is crap. Quality is not present in those figures. The battle tanker KO, also crap. If you want quality, you pay for it. If you want some cheeseball approximation of the actual thing, hey go for it. TF collecting and by extension of this current generation, good third party product is and has always been a pay to play affair. You get what you pay for. With KO figures you, more often than not, get much less.

On a different note, my bad. Haha, I thought I was in a different thread altogether. Totally my fault.

I thought that the KO Battle Tanker was comperable to the real deal. I'd like to hear it's shortfalls.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I thought that the KO Battle Tanker was comperable to the real deal. I'd like to hear it's shortfalls.

There's some comparison shots.
http://tformers.com/ig.php?mode=album&d ... s-maketoys

Flux Convoy wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I thought that the KO Battle Tanker was comperable to the real deal. I'd like to hear it's shortfalls.

There's some comparison shots.
http://tformers.com/ig.php?mode=album&d ... s-maketoys

Well, there's obviously sone differences there, but if there anything especially bad about the quality that I haven't heard about?

Banjo-Tron wrote:Actually I'd like to get slightly more off-topic and ask that KO threads are put in their own area, as I don't see why they should be discussed in the same area as 3rd-party toys.

I would totally love to see that, too. It always bugged me seeing the two lumped together, as (while some people may not see it) I find there to be an important distinction between the two.

Alas, to play Devil's Advocate, I suppose if that happened we might end up with people having arguments about where to post threads about figures that might skirt the line, such as the Masterpiece Coneheads, or the scaled down Masterpiece Primes that iGear came out with, both examples that I would call bootlegs but I am sure others would say are not. The mods would have to make clear rules about what are considered Third Party and what is considered a Knock Off, and I'm sure they;re happier not to have to deal with that can of worms and dump it all in one place.

But... on the off chance it is an idea that might be taken seriously, count me in as someone who'd love to see them seperated!

NOS wrote:X just likes to argue, stop feeding him excuses to rant.

Lets get this thread back on topic, shall we...?

I dont like to argue, but I do like to share my knowledge and opinions. Some might consider that "ranting". Hey to each their own.

Back on topic, I do consider high quality KO companies as "3rd parties". Especially when they give us repaints Hasbro never made like the Rainmakers, Animated Medic, and Shattered Glass City Commander. The fact is that these figures exist and people do buy them. Knitpicking them isnt going to make them disappear and bring back the "honor" some collectors demand at the cost of other collectors who dont share the same beliefs. The whole concept of "3rd parties" is fairly new, so I dont think their is any official criteria for the term other than not being an official Hasbro product and resembling something that is official Hasbro IP. Stolen molds, stolen IP, same s**t It's what 3rd parties are all about.

For me I find it pretty simple - New moulds, or accessories designed to go on existing official moulds are not KO. Direct copies of existing moulds, and resizes of those moulds are KOs. Regardless of colour, quality, or sticking different wings on, they are KOs. iGear seekers and OP are KOs. There is no artistry or ingenuity in producing a KO. Any mug can copy an existing mould. Deciding to pour differently-coloured plastic into a mould that you do not own does not make you a genius. It takes genuine talent, hard work and inspiration to make new moulds, and the 3rd party industry is at far more risk than Hasbro when these criminals (let's call a spade a spade) clone (and I mean clone, not re-imagine) their designs.

Banjo-Tron wrote:For me I find it pretty simple - New moulds, or accessories designed to go on existing official moulds are not KO. Direct copies of existing moulds, and resizes of those moulds are KOs. Regardless of colour, quality, or sticking different wings on, they are KOs. iGear seekers and OP are KOs. There is no artistry or ingenuity in producing a KO. Any mug can copy an existing mould. Deciding to pour differently-coloured plastic into a mould that you do not own does not make you a genius. It takes genuine talent, hard work and inspiration to make new moulds, and the 3rd party industry is at far more risk than Hasbro when these criminals (let's call a spade a spade) clone (and I mean clone, not re-imagine) their designs.

Well put! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Rated X wrote:You cant really put a price on designing. They do it out of love with hopes of making a great seller. It’s whatever factory uses the original mold and how much resources they have that will determine the price.

Are you serious?? Yes... because Artists, Designers, Developers & Engineers don't deserve to get paid... only the factory that pumps out the final product. As a professional artist, I find your views extremely insulting, you've obviously no respect for the people creating these products.

If only the factory-costs determined the price, video games would cost the same as blank DVD's.... a fine-art painting would cost the same as a blank canvas... Comic Books would cost as little as the paper they're printed on... and Maketoy's Giant would cost about $160. You think the only cost involved in making a movie from scratch is in the price of the film-reel?

Sure... if there's ZERO development involved, things are amazingly cheaper (go figure)! With the exception of CHMS Seeker KO's for some odd reason... zero development, yet 4x the cost.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your statement... it does seem just a little TOO idiotic to be serious.

Rated X wrote:Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold.

Another ridiculous comment... that's like saying photocopying a novel is similar to writing one. Copying someone else's research paper is NOT the same as writing your own. You're comparing designing all-original from-scratch molds to recasting someone else's.... they're not even in the same ballpark.

Rated X wrote:Once upon a time somebody created this wonderful drink called orange juice. Maybe only Tropicana should make it and all other companies that duplicate the recipe should be indicted. If you buy Minute Maid you are buying from a thief, right ?

Again... wow, I've never seen logic such as yours. If you buy a movie, make copies & sell it... YES, you ARE a "thief". If you want to make something that competes with that movie you will have to write your own script, hire your own actors, film your own scenes... etc.

NOS wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:For me I find it pretty simple - New moulds, or accessories designed to go on existing official moulds are not KO. Direct copies of existing moulds, and resizes of those moulds are KOs. Regardless of colour, quality, or sticking different wings on, they are KOs. iGear seekers and OP are KOs.

Well put! I couldn't have said it better myself.

That would be my view as well, and in the hypothetical world where "3rd Party" and "Knock Offs" were seperate forums, if that was the dividing line, I would be happy. I suppose I was just exploring the argument that others might make...

Although, heck... to take it one step further, I'd be happy if there was no mention of KO's period, except to warn people about them when they may be otherwise fooled into thinking them legitimate products. But I suppose that'd be a bit extreme...

Mekatron wrote:

Rated X wrote:You cant really put a price on designing. They do it out of love with hopes of making a great seller. It’s whatever factory uses the original mold and how much resources they have that will determine the price.

Are you serious?? Yes... because Artists, Designers, Developers & Engineers don't deserve to get paid... only the factory that pumps out the final product. As a professional artist, I find your views extremely insulting, you've obviously no respect for the people creating these products.

If only the factory-costs determined the price, video games would cost the same as blank DVD's.... a fine-art painting would cost the same as a blank canvas... Comic Books would cost as little as the paper they're printed on... and Maketoy's Giant would cost about $160. You think the only cost involved in making a movie from scratch is in the price of the film-reel?

Sure... if there's ZERO development involved, things are amazingly cheaper (go figure)! With the exception of CHMS Seeker KO's for some odd reason... zero development, yet 4x the cost.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your statement... it does seem just a little TOO idiotic to be serious.

Rated X wrote:Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold.

Another ridiculous comment... that's like saying photocopying a novel is similar to writing one. Copying someone else's research paper is NOT the same as writing your own. You're comparing designing all-original from-scratch molds to recasting someone else's.... they're not even in the same ballpark.

Rated X wrote:Once upon a time somebody created this wonderful drink called orange juice. Maybe only Tropicana should make it and all other companies that duplicate the recipe should be indicted. If you buy Minute Maid you are buying from a thief, right ?

Again... wow, I've never seen logic such as yours. If you buy a movie, make copies & sell it... YES, you ARE a "thief". If you want to make something that competes with that movie you will have to write your own script, hire your own actors, film your own scenes... etc.

So my statements are idiotic and ridiculous huh ?
Open up your mind and maybe you might understand them better. But if that’s too hard, I made this cheat sheet to help you:
Rated X wrote:
“You cant really put a price on designing. They do it out of love with hopes of making a great seller. It’s whatever factory uses the original mold and how much resources they have that will determine the price”.

What I meant:
Designers for 3rd parties are not on a company time clock. They put in the time necessary to get the job done. They might get their cut up front. Or they might get their cut when the profits come in. But once the figures end up in BBTS and Robot Kingdom’s warehouse, it’s a done deal. It’s not like Music CD’s where the artist is going to get a percentage for every unit sold.

Rated X wrote:
Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold.

What I meant:
I’m referring to the process used to create a mold, not the ethical factor behind if the mold is original or not. The technique is called reverse molding. You take a figure, disassemble it, and use the parts to cast a mold. Whether the figure used is a hand carved prototype or a Hasbro retail figure is irrelevant, it’s still the same process used to create the mold.

Rated X wrote:
Once upon a time somebody created this wonderful drink called orange juice. Maybe only Tropicana should make it and all other companies that duplicate the recipe should be indicted. If you buy Minute Maid you are buying from a thief, right ?

What I meant:
I was referring to the recipe and whoever created it. From sweeteners to preservatives, the whole nine yards. It was a comparison to how FDA approved prescription drugs are KO’d in Canada, and sold online to US citizens. Nobody is messing with those companies or crying about the drugs they KO. So why is everybody crying about KO transformers ? So I made a joke and said let’s criminalize KO’d orange juice too. Not my fault you have no sense of humor.


Now since you are an artist, would you like to donate 25% profit to Hasbro for every work you create that uses their IP ? If yes, then maybe you have a valid point. If no, recognize and respect the game and how it’s played. Hasbro isn’t going to give you a plate. So you got two choices: eat off theirs or starve.

Rated X wrote:Designers for 3rd parties are not on a company time clock. They put in the time necessary to get the job done. They might get their cut up front. Or they might get their cut when the profits come in. But once the figures end up in BBTS and Robot Kingdom’s warehouse, it’s a done deal. It’s not like Music CD’s where the artist is going to get a percentage for every unit sold.

First you say “You cant really put a price on designing. Then you say "They might get their cut up front. Or they might get their cut when the profits come in".

Could you be any more contradictory? Or do you mean that their cut is $0? I don't get it... unless you pay them NOTHING... you CAN put a price on designing. And how do you know it's not a percentage-based thing either? We've no idea how these companies are set-up... for all we know the designers/artist are running the show and they DO get a percentage of all the profits. In fact, I think that's the LIKELY situation.

Rated X wrote:Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold

I’m referring to the process used to create a mold, not the ethical factor behind if the mold is original or not. The technique is called reverse molding. You take a figure, disassemble it, and use the parts to cast a mold. Whether the figure used is a hand carved prototype or a Hasbro retail figure is irrelevant, it’s still the same process used to create the mold.

I'm VERY aware of what a recast is and how they do it. Once again, you're trying to completely ignore & belittle the entire process before the product actually hits the factory & goes into production and pretend it doesn't count. SURE... it's the "same process" after all the designing/engineering is done. Could we get any more obvious here? You're basically saying that running a Marathon is the same as only running the last 2 miles.

"Designing a mold from scratch" and creating a mold from a pre-existing design are 2 COMPLETELY different things... beyond comparison really.

Rated X wrote:I was referring to the recipe and whoever created it. From sweeteners to preservatives, the whole nine yards. It was a comparison to how FDA approved prescription drugs are KO’d in Canada, and sold online to US citizens. Nobody is messing with those companies or crying about the drugs they KO. So why is everybody crying about KO transformers ? So I made a joke and said let’s criminalize KO’d orange juice too. Not my fault you have no sense of humor.

I don't know much about orange juice in particular... but I will tell you, there IS such a thing as patenting a recipe.

Rated X wrote:Now since you are an artist, would you like to donate 25% profit to Hasbro for every work you create that uses their IP ? If yes, then maybe you have a valid point. If no, recognize and respect the game and how it’s played. Hasbro isn’t going to give you a plate. So you got two choices: eat off theirs or starve.

This is a tough one... because I DO very much like products from companies like Fansproject & Maketoys. As an artist, I would NEVER copy other peoples work or characters and try to sell it without their permission. I've drawn "fan art" maybe once in the past 15 years (no profit of course) and that was of Neytiri from Avatar...though I do take inspiration from myriads of things. If I did TF fanart though & got permission from Hasbro to sell it with 25% of the cut going to them... I would gladly do it. The fact that it's TF related would likely be the main reason most people would buy it... I'm not famous or nothing.

I truly hope these 2 companies can get away from the Transformers IP in the future, because I love their work and would like to see them succeed without relying so much on Hasbro's characters. I love my Steelcore.

I'm not saying 3rd party companies are "guilt free"... because they are possibly infringing on Hasbro's IP... I don't know exactly where the lines are drawn. But what they're doing is FAR from what KO companies like CHMS are doing. One is creating a new vision of a character, a new toy, a new mold... the other is taking those creations & making photocopies. I mean dude... the City/Powered/Shadow Commander KO's even came with packaging that had the "Fansproject" name and shite all over it... I've zero respect for that.

As others have said... it's obvious you're just wanting to fight... so much so, it seems you're willing to toss aside logic just for the sake of argument. Not that I mind... it's kind of fun to argue against the ridiculousness of your statements. And I'm redundantly honestly sincere in looking forward to reading more of your bass-ackwards posts in the future! These boards aren't interesting very often...

Rated X wrote:I do consider KO companies as "3rd parties".

I missed this one... which is (did I already use the word ridiculous?). I'm not a legal expert by ANY means... but this has always been my very basic understanding:

Knock-offs are "counterfeit goods"... or "cheap imitations" of existing products... also known as "fakes". And I'm sorry... but making it a different color doesn't take it out of this category.

3rd parties create/develop things that are tied to a primary product... like a company developing alternate controllers that are compatible with the Xbox. They don't recreate the exact product... it's just "compatible" with the original product. I assume "3rd Party" started getting thrown around in the TF community when people started creating add-ons for figures... alternate heads and weapons and what-not.

Now with companies actually creating full-on TF characters... I'm not sure what you'd call that... but there is of course a line to how much it copies the likeness of the original character. Hegemon is obviously guilty as hell... Defender? A little blurry there...

Mekatron:

Rated X wrote:
Designers for 3rd parties are not on a company time clock. They put in the time necessary to get the job done. They might get their cut up front. Or they might get their cut when the profits come in. But once the figures end up in BBTS and Robot Kingdom’s warehouse, it’s a done deal. It’s not like Music CD’s where the artist is going to get a percentage for every unit sold.

What I meant:

What I was trying to say that 3rd party designers don’t punch in to work on a time clock and get paid by the hour. They negotiate their deals with the company owner who puts up the money. That is why I said “you can’t really put a price on designing”. That reason being a designer can only take what the company owner is willing to pay him for his services. 3rd party toys are a very limited market. And China is huge. It’s not like a designer is going to get job offers from 10 different 3rd party companies and pick the highest salary. If it was like that, these guys would all be knocking on Hasbro’s door with their portfolios in hand.


Rated X wrote:
Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold

I’m referring to the process used to create a mold, not the ethical factor behind if the mold is original or not. The technique is called reverse molding. You take a figure, disassemble it, and use the parts to cast a mold. Whether the figure used is a hand carved prototype or a Hasbro retail figure is irrelevant, it’s still the same process used to create the mold.


What I meant:

Were talking about a KO of a 3rd party figure here, remember? Last time I checked the Transformers fandom was split on this thing called “Intellectual Property” and whether it should be respected. You know where I stand on that. I’m glad you realize that I was obviously referring to “the process” of making a mold. So wasn’t it also obvious I was not counting the “designing and engineering” phase when I made my original statement? If we were going to count the designing and engineering phase of Maketoys Giant, then we would have to take it back to the drawing board when Maketoys stole Hasbro’s IP, right ? So basically you condone one type of stealing (IP theft) but not the other (mold theft) ???


Rated X wrote:

I was referring to the recipe and whoever created it. From sweeteners to preservatives, the whole nine yards. It was a comparison to how FDA approved prescription drugs are KO’d in Canada, and sold online to US citizens. Nobody is messing with those companies or crying about the drugs they KO. So why is everybody crying about KO transformers ? So I made a joke and said let’s criminalize KO’d orange juice too. Not my fault you have no sense of humor.

What you said:

I don't know much about orange juice in particular... but I will tell you, there IS such a thing as patenting a recipe


Agreed. But remember 2 things:

1. All patents expire eventually. (like orange juice)
2. Some countries don’t acknowledge patents. International law is one big clusterf**k.

Why would the Canadian government go after pharmaceutical companies that make KO drugs when they provide free healthcare for everyone? It would make no sense financially.


I don’t even know where to begin with your last comment on fan art, IP, etc. All I can say is I didn’t buy Steelcore because it didn’t resemble anybody in the TF universe. I got a classics collection shelf. If I start putting non-TF characters on it, I might as well throw in Robbie the Robot, Bender, R2-D2, etc. As far as CHMS and KO’s are concerned. I think some collectors have a hissy-fit because they don’t feel special anymore now that everyone owns their beloved SG Rodimus or TFCC Punch/Counterpunch. I don’t think there is a hardcore TF collector living on every block in the US, or even every city for that matter that buys KO’s. But somehow people still get mad that a guy who lives 500 miles away also owns their “special” figure and got it way cheaper than them. I personally could care less. I would like to see everyone have a chance to own these wonderful molds, including those who are strapped for cash. Hell, I hope CHMS KO’s Botcon Alpha-Trion and I own the original. Every TF fan should have one. It doesn’t bother me what someone else has on their shelf, I’m too busy enjoying my own. So hopefully this clears up why I am such an avid supporter of KO’s.

I’m glad you find my posts amusing. I find you posts equally amusing. And anytime you want to take a bullet for Hasbro, I would be honored to pull the trigger. And I mean that in a joking way so don’t take it all serious now, you dig ?

OKAY... here we go. *long sigh*

Rated X wrote:What I was trying to say that 3rd party designers don’t punch in to work on a time clock and get paid by the hour. They negotiate their deals with the company owner who puts up the money. That is why I said “you can’t really put a price on designing”. That reason being a designer can only take what the company owner is willing to pay him for his services. 3rd party toys are a very limited market. And China is huge. It’s not like a designer is going to get job offers from 10 different 3rd party companies and pick the highest salary. If it was like that, these guys would all be knocking on Hasbro’s door with their portfolios in hand.

This comment is ALL over the place & I don't quite get what you're trying to say. First you're saying these third party companies don't hire designers, now you're saying they do... but the company owner just tosses them whatever change is leftover. You're assuming a LOT about the inner workings of a small company that you have ZERO part of. My guess (guess): The same guys that are designing this stuff are the business owners. They design the product & get quotes from factories on the production of it. But I don't know and neither do you... all your arguments here are invalid because they are speculation only... not that they'd have any validity otherwise as they don't connect with a word I said. It almost seems like you're trying to work your way out of your original comment "you can't put a price on design", since it obviously makes no sense. There's no defense for that comment, so please stop trying.

Let's take these 2 comments of yours:

#1"Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold"

#2"So wasn’t it also obvious I was not counting the “designing and engineering” phase when I made my original statement?"

NOOO, it's NOT obvious you weren't counting the design process when you used the phrase "designing from scratch"... unless I remove the words "designing from scratch". Are you saying "casting a mold" is similar to "casting a mold"? Really? Thanks for clearing that up. As I said before: designing a mold from scratch and creating a mold from a pre-existing design are 2 COMPLETELY different things... beyond comparison really. Why are they different you say?? One involves creating a "design"... the other does not.

I tried to write comments for your other 2 responses... but they were just nonsense to me & irrelevant to the original points. Sorry... I really did try.

I agree with everyone who said that original molds are 3rd party and copied molds are KO, regardless of whether it's a good color combination (like CHMS Sunstorm) or a poopy one (like any given China Town KO). There's no fundamental difference between the two except that one is made by someone who's color blind and the other is not. There's absolutely no blurry line between the two at all except to people who want to elevate KOs or drag down 3rs party products.

3rd party companies make unlicensed goods, not KO goods. There's a difference there. For instance, Game Genie was an unlicensed video game cheating system for the NES (among other systems). But it's not a copy of anything. Another item would be doujinshi - basically fan made mass produced manga featuring characters not owned by the group who makes a (usually pronographic) manga. Again, they aren't a direct copy of anything, but they are unlicensed goods.

If you think about it, 3rd party TFs are perfectly in line with fan made manga, which are really prevelant in Japan. You can't say Hegemon is a copy of any given Megatron toy. But you can say he's an unlicensed product of a Transformers chatracter.

Similarily, RID Sideburn was an unlicensed Dodge product (since it used the Viper as a model without permission), but was not a KO of any Dodge product (they got caught using it and had to license it after the fact, that's why the original toy lacks a Viper logo and Super Sideburn has one).

As for the costs of making a 3rd party product, I still don't see why CHMS could do a cheaper job than anyone. Unless, you know, they made Giant or somwthing more poopy than it was before. I mean, okay ... shittier / less paint + inferior plastics + sloppy, quick construction = a cheaper toy. If that's the essential argument here, then ... very well. May not be something I'd want to buy, but very well.

Mekatron wrote:OKAY... here we go. *long sigh*

Rated X wrote:What I was trying to say that 3rd party designers don’t punch in to work on a time clock and get paid by the hour. They negotiate their deals with the company owner who puts up the money. That is why I said “you can’t really put a price on designing”. That reason being a designer can only take what the company owner is willing to pay him for his services. 3rd party toys are a very limited market. And China is huge. It’s not like a designer is going to get job offers from 10 different 3rd party companies and pick the highest salary. If it was like that, these guys would all be knocking on Hasbro’s door with their portfolios in hand.

This comment is ALL over the place & I don't quite get what you're trying to say. First you're saying these third party companies don't hire designers, now you're saying they do... but the company owner just tosses them whatever change is leftover. You're assuming a LOT about the inner workings of a small company that you have ZERO part of. My guess (guess): The same guys that are designing this stuff are the business owners. They design the product & get quotes from factories on the production of it. But I don't know and neither do you... all your arguments here are invalid because they are speculation only... not that they'd have any validity otherwise as they don't connect with a word I said. It almost seems like you're trying to work your way out of your original comment "you can't put a price on design", since it obviously makes no sense. There's no defense for that comment, so please stop trying.

Let's take these 2 comments of yours:

#1"Actually designing a mold from scratch is a similar process to KO’ing a Hasbro mold"

#2"So wasn’t it also obvious I was not counting the “designing and engineering” phase when I made my original statement?"

NOOO, it's NOT obvious you weren't counting the design process when you used the phrase "designing from scratch"... unless I remove the words "designing from scratch". Are you saying "casting a mold" is similar to "casting a mold"? Really? Thanks for clearing that up. As I said before: designing a mold from scratch and creating a mold from a pre-existing design are 2 COMPLETELY different things... beyond comparison really. Why are they different you say?? One involves creating a "design"... the other does not.

I tried to write comments for your other 2 responses... but they were just nonsense to me & irrelevant to the original points. Sorry... I really did try.

I think you are just trying your best not to understand my view. Understanding it is easy, even if you don’t agree with it. Let me put it really simple for you to under stand:


The quote in question:

“You can’t put a price on a design”


Reason:


Designer A - Ill do a design for 10,000 yen up front and a 40-60% split of the profit.

Designer B - Ill do a design for a total of 50,000 yen which includes my services for every production phase and ownership rights to the design.

Designer C - Buy me a used car and Ill do the design for you free of charge. It’s tough living here without reliable transportation.

Designer D - I see you’re Japanese but you’ve outsourced your company to China to avoid copyright laws. If you can get me a work visa to do my designing outside of China we have a deal.

Designer E - Ill take whatever money you can give me. I come from a small rural town and I want to help my family.


This is what I have been trying to explain to you for the last 2 pages of this thread. Corporate America doesn’t exist in China. There’s no “going rate” for a designers services. You take what you can get. And there is a HUGE difference between what people ask for and what they actually get to do the job. If a designer doesn’t like the offers he gets, what is he going to do? Complain to the Chinese government about their lack of legislation for employers to pay competitive wages? It’s China, he has no rights. He can take the offer or take his design and shove it.

Now do you understand why you cant put a price on a design?


And since you did acknowledge that “casting a mold is similar to casting a mold” go figure some companies like CHMS might not even want to deal with designers for whatever reason. And they don’t have to because they operate in China where copyright restrictions are not enforced. So they KO molds, big deal. China is the Amsterdam of Transformers. I’m just talking about the process of mold casting. You’re the one who dragged designers into this debate.

And then you said this:

“I tried to write comments for your other 2 responses... but they were just nonsense to me & irrelevant to the original points. Sorry... I really did try.”


Fact: Canada provides free government healthcare for all of it’s citizens. So they will not enforce American copyrights that would double the cost they have to shell out on prescription drugs. This doesn’t relate directly to the topic of KO Transformers, but it does expose how you turn a blind eye towards one form of KO’s while you criminalize another.

Fact: Rated X doesn’t give a crap about the prestige of owning a certain rare or expensive figure. I want everyone to have the opportunity to enjoy the same figures that I own. So that is why I advocate high quality KO’s. I suppose you’re against my stance and you support exclusiveness among privileged individuals?

Pretty sure threads like this are how James Roberts came up with came up with the idea for Tarn's power for More Than Meets The Eye #7

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I agree with everyone who said that original molds are 3rd party and copied molds are KO, regardless of whether it's a good color combination (like CHMS Sunstorm) or a poopy one (like any given China Town KO). There's no fundamental difference between the two except that one is made by someone who's color blind and the other is not. There's absolutely no blurry line between the two at all except to people who want to elevate KOs or drag down 3rs party products.

3rd party companies make unlicensed goods, not KO goods. There's a difference there. For instance, Game Genie was an unlicensed video game cheating system for the NES (among other systems). But it's not a copy of anything. Another item would be doujinshi - basically fan made mass produced manga featuring characters not owned by the group who makes a (usually pronographic) manga. Again, they aren't a direct copy of anything, but they are unlicensed goods.

If you think about it, 3rd party TFs are perfectly in line with fan made manga, which are really prevelant in Japan. You can't say Hegemon is a copy of any given Megatron toy. But you can say he's an unlicensed product of a Transformers chatracter.

Similarily, RID Sideburn was an unlicensed Dodge product (since it used the Viper as a model without permission), but was not a KO of any Dodge product (they got caught using it and had to license it after the fact, that's why the original toy lacks a Viper logo and Super Sideburn has one).

As for the costs of making a 3rd party product, I still don't see why CHMS could do a cheaper job than anyone. Unless, you know, they made Giant or somwthing more poopy than it was before. I mean, okay ... shittier / less paint + inferior plastics + sloppy, quick construction = a cheaper toy. If that's the essential argument here, then ... very well. May not be something I'd want to buy, but very well.

I do totally understand your point. I seem to be the only one on here who considers KO companies and 3rd parties to be the same thing. I’m no fan of the concept of intellectual property. But if it really is a crime, than stealing IP should be considered no more righteous than stealing a mold. It’s like saying “if you’re going to break into my warehouse, you can take all my stock but please don’t take my tools”. I support what Hasbro considers theft of their IP, molds, etc. But I hate when 3rd party advocates try to create different levels of theft by crucifying KO’s because they are not original molds. It’s the biggest form of sugarcoating to make the original molds seem more legit to 3rd party critics. It’s all the same s**t. Companies that make profit from Hasbro property in one form or another. Technically G1 Reprolabels are KOed Hasbro labels. But everyone turns a blind eye and considers them a 3rd party company because they engage in a “humanitarian effort” to restore and enhance figures. Hasbro doesn’t tell them s**t.