Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I say you're lying to us and yourself about being pro-creative because you're gleeful even when 3rd party KOs are made. It's even more telling that you don't care that the lead designer from the Diaclone days still works at Takara; you don't care about supporting him by buying legit.

You're anti-corperate, but you are not pro-creator. You don't go out of your way to help creators. You love seeing them ripped off when it saves you money.

I got nothing to lie about. Nobody's paying me to post here. And it took more than one head designer to create the Transformers brand. Are they all still getting paid like him ? I doubt it. I buy KO and that has nothing to do with being pro or anti creator because. Even If I only bought legit, how would that be helping someone who got canned in the 80's. This anti-KO code of honor everybody here follows doesn't make you guys any more righteous or me any less righteous. People love to quote the law on this site. But if I raided their houses, I bet I would surely find a KO of something brand name, whether its a car part, home product, or food. You know it and I know it. That's what makes this anti-KO group so sad in my opinion. They're calling me a liar, but if you apply their logic to everything they own, many of them are living a lie when they scream "IP theft".

Rated X wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I say you're lying to us and yourself about being pro-creative because you're gleeful even when 3rd party KOs are made. It's even more telling that you don't care that the lead designer from the Diaclone days still works at Takara; you don't care about supporting him by buying legit.

You're anti-corperate, but you are not pro-creator. You don't go out of your way to help creators. You love seeing them ripped off when it saves you money.

I got nothing to lie about. Nobody's paying me to post here. And it took more than one head designer to create the Transformers brand. Are they all still getting paid like him ? I doubt it. I buy KO and that has nothing to do with being pro or anti creator because. Even If I only bought legit, how would that be helping someone who got canned in the 80's. This anti-KO code of honor everybody here follows doesn't make you guys any more righteous or me any less righteous. People love to quote the law on this site. But if I raided their houses, I bet I would surely find a KO of something brand name, whether its a car part, home product, or food. You know it and I know it. That's what makes this anti-KO group so sad in my opinion. They're calling me a liar, but if you apply their logic to everything they own, many of them are living a lie when they scream "IP theft".

Where in my entire response, did I say anything about IP law? Nobody's actually arguing an anti-KO stance. But we are saying you're not pro-creator and that buying KOs isn't pro-creator.

Buying a KO has everything to do with being anti-creator. No creators benefit from KOs. If you buy legit, at least SOME creators you claim to care about benefit. But it seems the only creators you care about are the ones you just can't be bothered to support - ones that no longer work at Hasbro or any of their licenses.

If you only bought legit you could claim to be pro-creator. But if you don't support creators by adding to their livelihood, even indirectly, then you're just lying to everyone, including to yourself. Your actions are vehemently anti-corperate and andi-IP, but they are NOT pro-creator by any stretch. By your actions and words regarding KOs, you actually seem pretty anti-creator. You're ecstatic when anyone gets ripped off.

Rated X wrote:And it took more than one head designer to create the Transformers brand. Are they all still getting paid like him ? I doubt it. I buy KO and that has nothing to do with being pro or anti creator because. Even If I only bought legit, how would that be helping someone who got canned in the 80's.

This is why people are getting so worked up - you're making assumptions unsubstantiated by evidence:
(1) That the folks no longer there were all fired, and didn't quit on their own.
(2) That they weren't fairly compensated for the work that they did.
(3) That some of the original designers still work at Takara is a fact that should be ignored.

If you could dig up some proof or put together an argument that wasn't full of assumptions, and backed by hard evidence, that would be one thing. This "speaking from the heart" and "street logic" garbage will only take you so far when you fail to back up any claim with something we can chew on.

Rated X wrote:This anti-KO code of honor everybody here follows doesn't make you guys any more righteous or me any less righteous. People love to quote the law on this site.

It's not about being righteous or not, it's about being consistent.

If you said "I purchase KOs because I want a better deal" no one would bat an eyelash. But somehow saying you're pro-creator is not only irrelevant to the conversation, but makes no sense in context. Buying KOs doesn't help creators at all, and in fact hurts those still employed by Takara.

Rated X wrote:But if I raided their houses, I bet I would surely find a KO of something brand name, whether its a car part, home product, or food. You know it and I know it. That's what makes this anti-KO group so sad in my opinion. They're calling me a liar, but if you apply their logic to everything they own, many of them are living a lie when they scream "IP theft".

I own a KODX Classics Prime. I bought it because I wanted a companion to my Tokyo Toy Show Nemesis Prime, and didn't want to shell out money for something that was more expensive and arguably less solid than the KODX version.

I own dozens of 3rd Party products, including upgrade kits and stand alone figures like FP Insecticons & Hexatron. Are they infringing on IP? Sure. Even if they're able to get away with it because of countries with less stringent IP protections, they're steeling the likenesses of HasTak copyrighted characters. I buy them because I don't think Hasbro will be producing modern updates of these characters any time soon, and I want them bad.

I think people would be sympathetic to my purchases and my reasons. No one is sympathetic to yours because no one can make sense of them.

X is right about everyone being hypocritical, though I believe it's hard not to be it's human nature. I try to live the best I can and I try to do the right things, but I know I fail. I don't believe in murder, but I've killed when I was in the Army. I don't believe in God, but I find myself praying. I don't believe in the "institution" of marriage(I'm not talking about fidelity, I believe in that strongly) , but I'm married anyways. Ect. Ect. Ect. We all have our little ways. You and I might disagree on what we consider right and wrong X, but in the end it doesn't mean anything if you don't believe it yourself.

You talk and talk and talk about the creators and what they are owed by Hasbro/Takara. Let's set that aside for a moment and talk about the 3rd party creators. What about them? What of the KO's of their products? They don't work for monolithic corporations, so what's your justification there?

njb902 wrote:X is right about everyone being hypocritical

njb902 wrote:I don't believe in murder, but I've killed.

megatronus wrote:

njb902 wrote:X is right about everyone being hypocritical

njb902 wrote:I don't believe in murder, but I've killed.

I served in Afghanistan.

njb902 wrote:

megatronus wrote:

njb902 wrote:X is right about everyone being hypocritical

njb902 wrote:I don't believe in murder, but I've killed.

I served in Afghanistan.

Thank you for serving our country. You're a brave person

Yeah, everyone's a hypocrite sometimes. But that doesn't make X's arguments logical.

megatronus wrote:

njb902 wrote:

megatronus wrote:

njb902 wrote:X is right about everyone being hypocritical

njb902 wrote:I don't believe in murder, but I've killed.

I served in Afghanistan.

Thank you for serving our country. You're a brave person

I don't know about that, I just served.

Do you see what I mean though? We all do things that we might not believe in or that aren't right under certain situations, either consciously or unconsciously. In that way we are all hypocritical, it may not be how X meant it, but he is still right.

Double post.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Yeah, everyone's a hypocrite sometimes. But that doesn't make X's arguments logical.

Not even a little bit.

njb902 wrote:

megatronus wrote:

njb902 wrote:

megatronus wrote:

njb902 wrote:X is right about everyone being hypocritical

njb902 wrote:I don't believe in murder, but I've killed.

I served in Afghanistan.

Thank you for serving our country. You're a brave person

I don't know about that, I just served.

Do you see what I mean though? We all do things that we might not believe in or that aren't right under certain situations, either consciously or unconsciously. In that way we are all hypocritical, it may not be how X meant it, but he is still right.

I think I get what you mean in a very broad sense, but I don't think it applies to this specific situation. And that's OK.

Where is this thread going to end

Autobot Genocide wrote:Where is this thread going to end

Kosh wrote:In fire.

Yotsuyasan wrote:

Autobot Genocide wrote:Where is this thread going to end

Kosh wrote:In fire.

Lol, never expected a Babylon 5 quote. I guess it's like the Spanish Inquisition!

Fire is very cleansing......... And painful, damn is it painful.

njb902 wrote:X is right about everyone being hypocritical, though I believe it's hard not to be it's human nature. I try to live the best I can and I try to do the right things, but I know I fail. I don't believe in murder, but I've killed when I was in the Army. I don't believe in God, but I find myself praying. I don't believe in the "institution" of marriage(I'm not talking about fidelity, I believe in that strongly) , but I'm married anyways. Ect. Ect. Ect. We all have our little ways. You and I might disagree on what we consider right and wrong X, but in the end it doesn't mean anything if you don't believe it yourself.

You talk and talk and talk about the creators and what they are owed by Hasbro/Takara. Let's set that aside for a moment and talk about the 3rd party creators. What about them? What of the KO's of their products? They don't work for monolithic corporations, so what's your justification there?

My opinion on 3rd party products and their "IP"...

They are original molds often with their own spin (hence fansproject) But if we go by the die hard anti IP thefy rationale found on this thread, anyone who KO's a 3rd party product would just be stealing stuff that was already stolen from someone else. Especially if the 3rd party company operates out of China to avoid IP lawsuits in the first place. So it's a double edged sword. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

I do own several KO's of 3rd party repaints but always bought the original first.

I own:

Original City Commander and KO's of Shadow Commander, DIA Commander and Shattered Glass Commander

Original Protector and KO of Shadow Scythe Protector

Original Battle Tanker and KO's of Shattered Glass and Ultra Magnus Battle Tanker (I also pre-ordered an original Hyper Novae)


I dont think Im in the wrong for saving money on the repainted KO's because they got my cash for the each mold once. I dont fault them for trying to juice the mold for what it's worth (Hasbro style) but that doesnt mean I gotta juice my wallet in the process. Theyre gonna get more of my business anyways through their future projects like Headmasters, Computron, The Fallen, etc. So I am supporting them and paying hard cash to the cause. Just not to the extent of high priced repaints.

How do you feel about CHMS/X-Transbots KO'ing Crazydevy stuff ???

I think it's awesome because the only thing crazy about Crazydevy is the prices. Overpriced non-transformable add-on parts makes you an easy target to get KOed. Once again you live by the sword, you die by the sword.


I started this whole thing because I honestly believe there are alot of hypocrites on here who would take a bullet for the current Hasbro corporate division and their legal rights. But the minute I suggest that theyre MIGHT be a handful of G1 inovators that got the s**t end of the deal, everyone starts calling me a liar and is trying to speak for me. Sure those G1 inovators signed contracts, were paid, and had no idea their early work would evolve into a multi billion dollar franchise and they would never see a penny of it. Maybe that's how corporate America works. Well I say it sucks. Since it was Buster's iconic voice that made the character "Blaster" worth millions, would it have hurt to give him a damn nickel for every FOC or Device Label Blaster sold ? I think not. But all the resident Seibertron.com lawyers would say no because it wasnt in Buster's contract with Hasbro/Sunbow.

I think you get where Im coming from whether you agree with me 100% or not. And by the way, thank you for your service in Afganistan.

Double post (why does this site always struggle when you hit submit ?)

What I find funny though is if you go back and re-read this thread, no one really brings up IP, no one has made a massive issue out of anti-ko's ... no one that is except Rated X.

Did I state earlier in the thread that I'm anti-ko? Yes. I explained my collecting preferences. That was it.

I then had to defend MY collecting habits to someone who clearly does NOT respect what I do with MY OWN collection.

Honestly, I'm tired of being insulted. I collect Transformers. I have bought KO's but only one of them was passed off as being a legitimate Transformer, in other words, I got screwed over. The others I bought were garishly coloured or oversized and were bought out of curiosity and then given to my nephew if they didn't break upon transformation.

But if you go through every picture in this album you will not see a single KO Transformer. Every single one of them is "legit".

That's my collecting preference. I'm not saying it's right, but I will not sit here and have some loud mouth brand me a hypocrite or a corporate suck-up, or some other wildly stupid name just because MY collecting preferences don't line up with his.

Burn wrote:What I find funny though is if you go back and re-read this thread, no one really brings up IP, no one has made a massive issue out of anti-ko's ... no one that is except Rated X.

Did I state earlier in the thread that I'm anti-ko? Yes. I explained my collecting preferences. That was it.

I then had to defend MY collecting habits to someone who clearly does NOT respect what I do with MY OWN collection.

Honestly, I'm tired of being insulted. I collect Transformers. I have bought KO's but only one of them was passed off as being a legitimate Transformer, in other words, I got screwed over. The others I bought were garishly coloured or oversized and were bought out of curiosity and then given to my nephew if they didn't break upon transformation.

But if you go through every picture in this album you will not see a single KO Transformer. Every single one of them is "legit".

That's my collecting preference. I'm not saying it's right, but I will not sit here and have some loud mouth brand me a hypocrite or a corporate suck-up, or some other wildly stupid name just because MY collecting preferences don't line up with his.

This is just my opinion, but t's been my observation that Rated X really doesn't care what anyone else's opinion might be.

@X - Buying a KO of ANY 3rd party product is anti-creator. The money that 3rd parties get from their products go DIRECTLY towards creators. Repaints are a way for them to get even more bang for their buck - a bang you deny them. You support them to a point. And then you don't. This is not a pro-creator attitude.

I point that out because you aggressively asset that you're pro creator, by the way. If you weren't on your soapbox telling us that Hasbro is evil, KOs are great, and that you're so very noble for buying only KOs when you can because IPs mean nothing to you, it wouldn't matter to me in the least. You'll notice people on soapboxes tend to get tomatoes thrown at them. If someone came in here and loudly proclaimed Hasbro collectors were the only legit TF collectors you'd see a different story. That's happened, but nobody is quite as obstinate as you are, so it doesn't last quite as long.

Burn wrote:What I find funny though is if you go back and re-read this thread, no one really brings up IP, no one has made a massive issue out of anti-ko's ... no one that is except Rated X.

Did I state earlier in the thread that I'm anti-ko? Yes. I explained my collecting preferences. That was it.

I then had to defend MY collecting habits to someone who clearly does NOT respect what I do with MY OWN collection.

Honestly, I'm tired of being insulted. I collect Transformers. I have bought KO's but only one of them was passed off as being a legitimate Transformer, in other words, I got screwed over. The others I bought were garishly coloured or oversized and were bought out of curiosity and then given to my nephew if they didn't break upon transformation.

But if you go through every picture in this album you will not see a single KO Transformer. Every single one of them is "legit".

That's my collecting preference. I'm not saying it's right, but I will not sit here and have some loud mouth brand me a hypocrite or a corporate suck-up, or some other wildly stupid name just because MY collecting preferences don't line up with his.

Hey theres nothing wrong with owning all "legit" Transformers. You got some value there. But for some people it's not about value, it's all about fun. And when it comes to high quality KO's of rare or exaggerated price TF's youre missing out on all the fun.

How do you feel about the KO Dino cassettes ? Somebody sacrificed their own "legit" dino cassettes so that the rest of us can finally enjoy holding them in our own hands. Sure he probally made a nice profit. But clearly for him, the concept of bringing the Dino cassettes to the masses outweighed the glory of owning a true holy grail.

Even Siebertron himself couldnt resist being able to finally own these awesome molds. I dont blame him. I bought them too. Youre really missing out...

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers- ... ru/2667/1/

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers- ... fi/2668/1/

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers- ... zu/2669/1/

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers- ... ru/2666/1/

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers- ... el/2664/1/

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers- ... ut/2665/1/

Rated X wrote:Hey theres nothing wrong with owning all "legit" Transformers.

Wait ... what? You just spent the last four pages calling those who collect like that are "hypocrites", "anti-KOers", "corporate suck ups", and that they "don't support the original creators".

Now there's nothing wrong with it?

You got some value there. But for some people it's not about value, it's all about fun. And when it comes to high quality KO's of rare or exaggerated price TF's youre missing out on all the fun.

That's your opinion. That doesn't make it right.

Are you actually suggesting that I don't have fun collecting?

Are you suggesting that when I troll E-Bay, or the Buy/Swap/Sell Threads, or go hunting through stores and find a TF that I want and have been after for a while that I'm not having fun?

Because I'm having fun. Know what I REALLY love about collecting original G1 stuff? Tracking down the parts and completing a figure. I find it fun and it gives me a lot of satisfaction that I've completed a figure I've been working to put together for a while.

How do you feel about the KO Dino cassettes ?

They're KO's. I don't want them. I don't care how rare they were originally. I've been priced out of the legit market and I'm okay with that.

Youre really missing out...

Again, just your opinion, and I doubt you really know what enjoyment I'm getting and not getting out of life.

This thread is wildly entertaining I must admit, but it seems X is sort of being ganged up on here. I don't agree with the guy either, but I've been warned before about this very thing when it was only myself and one other person participating in a disagreement in a thread with another person, but here there's way more than 2 coming at X all at once so shouldn't the same rule apply?

I participated in this discussion earlier too, but all this stuff is way off topic and has really just turned into a debate between one person and several others. I don't think it's productive at all and certainly isn't providing any useful info that I can see about "KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw".

xyl360 wrote:I participated in this discussion earlier too, but all this stuff is way off topic and has really just turned into a debate between one person and several others. I don't think it's productive at all and certainly isn't providing any useful info that I can see about "KO MP-16 Frenzy and Buzzsaw".

To be fair, if the intended purpose of this thead is, indeed, just to warn purchasers of legitimate Transformers toys that this knock-off exists so that they can steer clear of it, I should think the very first post should have covered it nicely and there should be no need for it to exist past that.

It has rather morphed into something else... something I myself have participated quite heavily in I shall admit, although for the past day I've been trying to keep my cool and do little more then observe. (Well, that and throw in one irresistible Babylon 5 joke.) Maybe I'll come back in later, but the rest of the "anti-X league" that seems to have sprouted seem to be doing just fine making the arguments or pointing out the fallacies in Rated X's so-called logic that I might have. Even better then I could in some cases.

On one hand, I am frankly amazed the thread didn't get locked at least a page ago. On the other hand... maybe by now most of the rest of the forum members know to avoid this thread, and it is being kept open to segregate the exciting drama of Rated X vs. The World from everyone else.

(I've been spending my time not posting to this thread wondering which of the Evil X's I might be... On one hand, I hope I'm Gideon Graves, because then I'll undoubtedly also end up in a Wes Anderson film at some point, and those are usually quite good. On the other hand, though, if I'm Lucas Lee, maybe I can go hang out with the rest of The Avengers.)

... ... ...

(I just feel bad for whoever gets to be Ramona in this scenario...)

My wife wants to know if she can be knives and I want to be young neil.