Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

I still to this day do not understand why the deaths outweigh the rest of the film. Only a handful of Transformers died. And, when you really think about it, only Optimus was the only ever really confirmed death. I'm pretty sure Prowl bought it because of the way the shot from Megatron affected him, and you have to assume Ironhide died from the shot to the face, but aside from that the others were just speculation. Just like Huffer, you can see him helping move a roadblock at the first of the film, but just because you don't see him in the movie later or in S3 does not mean he was killed. You can assume, but what about the majority of the S2 bots? We never see most of them again after the movie, but does that really mean they were dead? No. All of the Decepticons lived, except presumably Shockwave and Starscream, as the six that were damaged in the battle of Autobot City were reformatted into new identities. This includes Megatron (Galvatron), Cyclonus (Thundercracker/Skywarp), and Scourge (Bombshell) and his sweeps (Kickback and Shrapnel, plus thier cloning ability)


The only confirmed/assumed deaths in the film are as follows...

Autobots
Optimus Prime (obvious)
Ironhide (assumed - shot in the face)
Prowl (assumed - shot, melted from inside)
Windcharger - (assumed - presumed to be dead body seen next to Wheeljack)
Wheeljack - (assumed - presumed to be dead body seen next to Windcharger)

Decepticons
Starscream (Atomized by Galvatron)
Shockwave (crushed by Unicron)

So, can we bury the "movie was so tragic because of all the death) mentality of the film. Geez...even if you counted Brawn and Rachet among the dead, that is only seven assumed deaths.

gambit020480 wrote:There is no logical argument that can be brought forth to say Bayformers are better than G1.

There is no logical argument that can be brought forth against it either.

Because its a matter of personal taste, and logic never come into play when talking about personal taste.

gambit020480 wrote: And, when you really think about it, only Optimus was the only ever really confirmed death.

Actully Prowl,Ratchet,Ironhide,Huffer and Starscream were all confirmed as dead in season 3..

The only confirmed/assumed deaths in the film are as follows...

Autobots
Optimus Prime (obvious)
Ironhide (assumed - shot in the face)
Prowl (assumed - shot, melted from inside)
Windcharger - (assumed - presumed to be dead body seen next to Wheeljack)
Wheeljack - (assumed - presumed to be dead body seen next to Windcharger)

Corrections.

Ironhide (confirmed season 3)
Prowl (confirmed season 3)
Huffer (confirmed season 3)

And you forgot

Ratchet (shot in the shuttle confirmed dead season 3)
Brawn (assumed - presumed to be dead body shot on shuttle)

Decepticons
Starscream (Atomized by Galvatron)
Shockwave (crushed by Unicron)

Correction.

Shockwaves deatrh was in the script but never animated so his death is not canon

There is no logical argument that can be brought forth to say Bayformers are better than G1. That is like saying the creation is better than the creator. Only a Bayjumper would say such a thing.....

Really, I can apply tons of logic to why G1 is inferior. If you can't you simply lack imagination. Ever hear of the concept of first draft. That's exactly what G1 is...a first draft of the the world of transformers.

Almost every following version of the series has far better story telling that followed. They have far better fleshed out characters due to having far more focus casts. The majority of G1 characters had zero character development outside the regulars. They just say their character set up lines in a role call and hang out from there on.

With out just outright bashing G1 just be petty thats something anyone who isn't clouded by Fanboy/girl logic can quickly concede that most G1 characterization was weak. G1 characters pale to likes of Beast wars/ Machines, Unicron Trilogy , Animated or even the Bay films. They're just over all better written stories than the original show where they took some random idea , screw with it for 20 mins then rapidly resolved it.

I still to this day do not understand why the deaths outweigh the rest of the film. Only a handful of Transformers died.

Because there were NO DEATHS outside of Alpha Trion before the movie.(He wasn't gone completely either.) So some easy math for you. Even if we were only go with 7 (it's higher than that.) 7>1. Thats 700% more deaths.

Not to mention there was entire planets wiped out by Unicron. There's deaths in the trillions. All which is quite dark for little kids...whom were the target audience. So no we're not blowing it out of proportion.

Lastjustice wrote:

There is no logical argument that can be brought forth to say Bayformers are better than G1. That is like saying the creation is better than the creator. Only a Bayjumper would say such a thing.....

Really, I can apply tons of logic to why G1 is inferior. If you can't you simply lack imagination. Ever hear of the concept of first draft. That's exactly what G1 is...a first draft of the the world of transformers.

Almost every following version of the series has far better story telling that followed. They have far better fleshed out characters due to having far more focus casts. The majority of G1 characters had zero character development outside the regulars. They just say their character set up lines in a role call and hang out from there on.

With out just outright bashing G1 just be petty thats something anyone who isn't clouded by Fanboy/girl logic can quickly concede that most G1 characterization was weak. G1 characters pale to likes of Beast wars/ Machines, Unicron Trilogy , Animated or even the Bay films. They're just over all better written stories than the original show where they took some random idea , screw with it for 20 mins then rapidly resolved it.

I still to this day do not understand why the deaths outweigh the rest of the film. Only a handful of Transformers died.

Because there were NO DEATHS outside of Alpha Trion before the movie.(He wasn't gone completely either.) So some easy math for you. Even if we were only go with 7 (it's higher than that.) 7>1. Thats 700% more deaths.

Not to mention there was entire planets wiped out by Unicron. There's deaths in the trillions. All which is quite dark for little kids...whom were the target audience. So no we're not blowing it out of proportion.

All I read was blah...blah...blah. I did not read a word after the first line. You are a Bayjumper and you will not be a fan after the films are over. You will be weeded out soon after the Bayformers are a memory. And a bad one at that.


To the 2000 whatever guy above, I did not forget anything. I mentioned Brawn and Ratchet as assumed. Besides my point was made for the time of the events that transpired during the time of the movie. There is always this rip on the 86 film because of all the death. Because they are a bunch of wimps. People die as do Transformers. get over it. It won't be the last time you see something die. That I guarantee.

Geez....my 3yr old watched Optimus die and didn't shed a tear. Wussies.

gambit020480 wrote:To the 2000 whatever guy above, I did not forget anything. I mentioned Brawn and Ratchet as assumed.

The problem with that is Ratchets death was confirmed both in the film [by turning gray] and in season 3 [in dialog].

Besides my point was made for the time of the events that transpired during the time of the movie. There is always this rip on the 86 film because of all the death. Because they are a bunch of wimps. People die as do Transformers. get over it. It won't be the last time you see something die. That I guarantee.

And thats exactly why your point fails.In trying to make a commentary for the time of the events your neglecting the fact that for the time, deaths in a kids cartoon was pretty much unheard of.

TFTM will always be > than the Bay films. Why? Because it focused on the robots 90+% and not the humans!!! Point blank. Nuff said

vectorA3 wrote:TFTM will always be > than the Bay films. Why? Because it focused on the robots 90+% and not the humans!!! Point blank. Nuff said

your opinions arent facts.

All I read was blah...blah...blah. I did not read a word after the first line. You are a Bayjumper and you will not be a fan after the films are over. You will be weeded out soon after the Bayformers are a memory.

So why shouldn't I do the same if you want to play the ignorant card? Why even bother posting if you aren't going have an intelligent response? You want to toss around terms like logic reponses and then you bring back this...Sorry you are last poster that should be asking for those. (If you were a transformers your alt mode would be a short bus LOL.) You just want to toss around labels like they mean something and some how makes you righteous. No, that makes you the epitome of the term fan boy.


Bay jumper...please I've been watching transformers before some of the other posters here were born.(which means you clearly haven't read any of my posters since I say imediately in the opening post I saw the movie back in 86...This is too easy as Starscream would say.) I've watched majority of shows between. No I am a Transformers fan..Period. I'll be a fan another 25 years from now.

There is always this rip on the 86 film because of all the death. Because they are a bunch of wimps. People die as do Transformers. get over it. It won't be the last time you see something die. That I guarantee.

Geez....my 3yr old watched Optimus die and didn't shed a tear. Wussies.

See this...

And thats exactly why your point fails.In trying to make a commentary for the time of the events your neglecting the fact that for the time, deaths in a kids cartoon was pretty much unheard of.

And...Your 3 your old probably didn't spend 2 years growing love the characters and fully grasp the concept of death.(It makes me sad you've reproduced if this how you regularly conduct yourself.) In context of the time that this all took place your comments do not reflect how it played out. I'm guessing your 3 your old didn't come home from school every day for 2 years rushing to watch transformers. No, you probably just had them watch the film or glossed over G1.

My niece and nephew had little reaction since they didn't know who the characters were when I showed them the film. They had no connection to the fallen autobots. I showed them shortly after they saw the first film in 2007, and they didn't know the characters as well as they do now.

They did however have a connection to characters in the bay films because they had built up something to them. My nephew didn't like seeing Jazz get killed or Prime dying in Revenge of the fallen.

I know I felt it when I saw Prime die again. I got a bit worried in the first film when I heard Optimus say One shall stand...one shall fall...like you better not do it to me again..I dont want to cry in front of my nephew. Seeing the forest battle I was on the edge of my seat.....I dont know if was breathing the first time I saw it.I was like OMG...they did it to me again. Relax Mike...only a Prime can defeat the fallen...they gotta bring him back for Jet-Optimus.

I've had 20 years of transformers...seeing Prime die never something I like seeing. But that said it showed just how important he was to the series, and to hasbro that we the fans care about the characters on a deeper level than they ever realized.We empathize and relate to what's going on onscreen. That's not being wussies...thats a product relaying its emotional message properly. Something in your "hardcore" fan rant lost among the art of several other things.

TFTM will always be > than the Bay films. Why? Because it focused on the robots 90+% and not the humans!!! Point blank. Nuff said

No it's not enough said. You're comparing too completely different things. The Bay films are LIVE ACTION MOVIES. Everything thats live action has human involved. It means it takes place in some place thats a resemblance to the real world. Whether its Gremlins, Teenage mutant ninja turtles, or Smurfs. If there's no humans involved then it might as well be animated then.

Further more...it cost a crap ton of money to show robots on screen the entire time. Why its alot cheaper show cars and human actors. Not to mention it grounds the story for the masses as that grinded off alot of the hard nerdy edges that made the original 86 film rather niche audience.

G1 was just trying Sell toys, and didn't usually worry about the ramifactions of giant alien transforming robots having a civil war on our front lawn most of the time. Honestly thats an aspect of the series that really needed touched on. (and agve a whole lot more to the whole robots in disguise aspect.) May be it went too far in that direction for first film, but I have no issues with it as was done overall intelligently.

Seriously, Prime died and resurrected more times than I want to count... Crying because of it in '07 or '09 is like being surprised that there are alien robots in a Transformers movie.


Now, ON: I grew up solely on G1 comics before I saw THE Movie, never seen the G1 cartoon before that. For me, it is the most awesome movie ever.
Seeing the shuttle attack, the violation wasn't that grave for me, since there were a lot of such deaths in the comics - Hell, Starscream alone offed half of the joint Decepticon-Autobot army when he was powered by the Underbase. The Movie was just as serious as the comic, and I liked it, as well as seeing a new leader in place of Optimus Prime rise.

I never like the middle of the transformers 1986 movie. the scenes with the junkions on planet junkion & the quintessons on planet quintessa.

I only like the beginning of the movie up until galvatron blast the autobot ship in deep space. the ending starting where everyone grabs nearby ships & heads towards unicron.

deathy wrote:I never like the middle of the transformers 1986 movie. the scenes with the junkions on planet junkion & the quintessons on planet quintessa.

I only like the beginning of the movie up until galvatron blast the autobot ship in deep space. the ending starting where everyone grabs nearby ships & heads towards unicron.

The middle where they just bounce between planets is easily the worst part of the film as thats when seems like it lost it's sense of direction. It's not till Hotrod shows up on the planet junkion does the movie remember the plot. Like oh yeah shouldn't we be doing something really important...lets revive Ultra magnus and save the Cybertron. You know why we left earth in the first place and had take all these pointless detours and accidentally recruit Wheelie...(shudder.)

3 seasons? It ran 5, dude. Granted the fifth season was just reruns of episodes from the other four, but still... There were more than 3.

Skywarp64 wrote:3 seasons? It ran 5, dude. Granted the fifth season was just reruns of episodes from the other four, but still... There were more than 3.

Technically , but I dont believe in technicalities. I'm a spirit of the law type of guy. There were only 3 full seasons of brand new episodes. Calling Rebirth parts 1-3 a season is like calling 10 story building a skyscraper. far as I'm concerned Rebirth is just TV special tacked on the end of Season 3. I mean they don't call Transformers the movie Season 3..then why this lil blurt that's the same length season 4?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

vectorA3 wrote:TFTM will always be > than the Bay films. Why? Because it focused on the robots 90+% and not the humans!!! Point blank. Nuff said

your opinions arent facts.

And you'd rather have it the other way around? It's Transformers - not Humans and transformers. Even if a good reboot comes along, I doubt it will even come close to TFTM. You're going to trump Orson Welles and Leonard Nimoy??? I'd like to see them try....

vectorA3 wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

vectorA3 wrote:TFTM will always be > than the Bay films. Why? Because it focused on the robots 90+% and not the humans!!! Point blank. Nuff said

your opinions arent facts.

And you'd rather have it the other way around?

Not really the point.

And in all honesty, I doubt very much that removing or lensing the human factor would have helped these films all that much.

Just look at other films that have made the jump from comic or toon to film.Just look at Batman.

Hes not in the bat suit the majority of the film, we see more of Bruce then bats, and thats because they want us, the audience to relate to the world he's in.

It's the same with Transformers , they want us to relate to that world, thats not going to happen with out humans in the film.

You're going to trump Orson Welles and Leonard Nimoy??? I'd like to see them try....

Trying would be easy.

Bring in Morgan Fredman as the voice of Primus and Patrick Steward as Alpha Trion.

That would blow Welles and Nimoy out of the water.

And I love Spock, but his work on Galvatron wasnt very unique.

I'm not saying take humans out entirely, I'm just saying have more TFs in the films -talking, acting, etc. You don't see any real TFs til halfway through the first film and besides the half hour of unnecessary material - waay too much human garbage in the 2nd film.

Stewart and Freeman are great but still don't beat Welles and Nimoy. The 2 you mentioned wouldn't really fit in. People would be thinkin Professor X and Red (Shawshank Redemption) too much

vectorA3 wrote:I'm not saying take humans out entirely, I'm just saying have more TFs in the films -talking, acting, etc. You don't see any real TFs til halfway through the first film and besides the half hour of unnecessary material - waay too much human garbage in the 2nd film.

Still dont think it would have effected these films all that much.

Stewart and Freeman are great but still don't beat Welles and Nimoy. The 2 you mentioned wouldn't really fit in. People would be thinkin Professor X and Red (Shawshank Redemption) too much

Doubtfull.

And I think that not only would they fit, they would do a far better job then Wells or Nimoy, and I say thats because both would be doing their best because both seem to love all the voice over work they do.

Its my understanding that both Nimoy and Wells werent too trilled with doing the va's back then.

And most likely people would be thinking ...Fredmen was God, so Primus make sense.

And even if they think Pro X or Captasin Picard, Alpha Trion, the father of the Autobot movement is a perfect fit.

I'd leave it to the pros -- Cullen, Welker, Berger, J. Angel, N. Ross, Dan Gilvezan, Paul Eiding -etc. If I brought in outside talent it would be Paul Bettany, Laurence Fishburne, and maybe Jeremy Irons as a villain. Can't think of anymore off the top of my head.

vectorA3 wrote:I'd leave it to the pros -- Cullen, Welker, Berger, J. Angel, N. Ross, Dan Gilvezan, Paul Eiding -etc. If I brought in outside talent it would be Paul Bettany, Laurence Fishburne, and maybe Jeremy Irons as a villain. Can't think of anymore off the top of my head.

Some of these sound good

vectorA3 wrote:I'm not saying take humans out entirely, I'm just saying have more TFs in the films -talking, acting, etc. You don't see any real TFs til halfway through the first film and besides the half hour of unnecessary material - waay too much human garbage in the 2nd film.

I'm pretty sure that the first movie was the only one that didn't show robots halfway through the movie.

Something something killing childhood heroes and not bringing them back by the end of the movie, unforgivable etc.

On the other hand, I constantly cite the Optimus/Decepticons/Megatron Stan Bush music vid arena battle spectacular, as the BEST FIGHT SCENE EVER BEST.

to avoid confusion I was only referring to the 2nd movie (ROTF) when i said there was half hour of unneccessary material.