DO understand everything you're saying...But you have to keep in mind that plot was NEVER at the forefront of the production of this movie...The guys who made it, themselves, have admitted it was just a giant commercial to sell the new figures...Yet despite that (and its many resulting flaws) it still managed to drop some pretty significant changes on not only Transformers, but kid's cartoons in general...And as I said, that's just something that didn't happen back then...It was very daring on their part...
What you saw as daring, I saw them doing it solely for excuse make new figures and not cause was invovative. They were shocked at the backlash they took when prime died, as peter cullen himself didnt realize fans loved him as much as they did till then. If they knew we d reacted that way they d never done it. They just figured kids get over it or something as the wiki even talked about them wanting have the entire line of pre movie guys taken out in a gauntlet style run against each other. They didnt seem understand why fans were fans till what happened in its aftermath. Theyd pushed any harder they might alienated the entire fan base and killed the franchise. Which the movie bombed likely to word of mouth(mom 1, dont take your kids see transformers, jimmy didnt stop crying for a week, Mom2, oh my goodness, I wont do that then. I picture were dozens of conversations like that which our parents were ones who had deal with the aftermath and bought the toys so bad move.), and received horrible reviews.Which likely caused the studio who made the series to tank.
That's true...But perfect continuity was not something that really mattered to a bunch of kids...
Consistency was always a pet peeve of mine. Even as a kid. I got annoyed at the fact numbers between 10-19 didnt follow a constient pattern. (ironically my nephew whos practically my clone felt the same way heh.) I notice stuff like that, imediately was like hey, why did those shots kill ironhide, whos entire gimmick was he was a hard to kill guy die like he was glass joe. (same with brawn.) No that just served make me mad as a kid.
Sure characters had taken worse beatings and lived through it...Sure the Decepticons had never been really portrayed as ruthless and bloodthirsty before that point...But (and maybe this is just me) this portrayal seemed instantly more fitting.
That be fitting if the entire show before hand and after didnt contradict it. The comics had that level of death on both the bots and cons sides frequently. (sounds like you d been better off reading those than watching the show.) Was like the heroes had gotten issued faulty plot armor for the movie and issued unkillable status in everything else. I fail see why movies are agreen light for death considering it didnt happen really outside of it.
Which the decepticons became an even bigger joke post movie than they were before hand. They were basically the quints dogs cause they were so broken and worn down. They might had one shining moment of glory at autobot city(which the autobots, despite calling it autobot city, seemed lack a number of heavy hitters, as well as primes back up team. Like how convient for the plot for characters to die since the protectorbots,omega supreme, metroplex or aerialbots weren't there or dozens of other autobots who would easily won that fight. Heck the earths goverments didnt even get involved despite having planes and weapons capable downing a transformer by then.) , but they became less than that all way up till rebirth, the closet they ever got to winning again.
I'm sure it DID turn a lot of people off or rub them the wrong way, but I just remember being enthralled
You might be cool with shock value deaths,(I want to see rampant death I'd watched a horror movie. Not a kids show based movie.) Im not. Alot of people werent in this instant. Im ok with well done deaths, as the characters death should be as big as they were in life. None of the characters were remotely honored, as they were treated like speedbumps to a new season.
Not say I can have a death happen, beast wars is a good example of death done right. All characters we fleshed out well and when they went it usually was in a way that they died doing what they did best. Only quick deaths in the series were scorponok and terrasaur, which since no one seemed mind they werent revived, though scorponoks death seemed pointless since he was replace by yet another scropion character.
Beyond that dinobot was an example of a character meant to die. I loved dinobot, but I didnt want to see his death reversed. He went out in a blaze of glory. Which it wasnt purely convient for the plot either as beast wars established characters could potentially die at any time, just didnt happen all the time. It was a consistent tone that was kept the entire show as wasnt out of left field.
The movie starts off by explosively smacking you upside the head with the realization that all bets are off in from here on out...That was SO exciting!
Funny I was pretty ticked with in a short time of seeing it. You very notion all bets are off is contradicted by the fact no one else died the whole freaking movie besides old characters in the begining. What you got excited about was basically a lie cause rest of the movie wasnt even remotely close to that intensity. Only new character to die was unicron(which he sort of survived as a head thru the following series) and ultramagnus who was imediately revived. I suppose you cna include the guy from the poor hapless planet they seemed know who unicron was but did nothing to prepare against him before he seemingly offed their world(which that right there warrents a ton of freaking explantion how any race can be stupid enough to know a planet killing critter is out there and do nothing. Be like the people of japan knowing the US was going bomb them and just hung out for the fun of it.) And sharkacons which were basically mindless drones, so no one cared they got smashed.
really liked...they were all so much more futuristic and the colors were all new...We'd seen the same old stuff for two years at that point and I was thrilled to see something new...That doesn't mean I suddenly hated all the old stuff, I just thought it was a breath of fresh air...I had always been intrigued with the cybertronian aspect of the Transformers that had been really downplayed until this point...
I always hated all new characters alt modes. Like what the hell was Kup supposed to be.(and what kind of name is Kup? That along with rodimus prime are two of the dumbest names in the new batch of characters.) They litterally were a bunch of 80s stereotypes with their bright neon colors, psuendo concepts of what the future would be.(which you could likely suggest the cars the new characters were actually intended to represent what humans were supposed be driving at that time) Complete with spike and daniel sporting the jetsons outfits and jet board.
I understand why there likely be transformers who never went to earth and wouldnt have earth based alt modes, but at the same time what they gave them were so lame. Ultra magnus and Hot rod were only things looked like was based off something in real life. Rest were just too odd and different for their own good.
Which the fact you dont see them making more transformers in the same vein kind of shows you they werent well received. All newer ones tend have very limited quasi-future/cybertronian rides in them. For most part those tend stick out like a sore thumd and feel out of sych with the rest of the set.
I dont like change for sake of change. You seem to, as you the ideal kid see this movie and whatever happened afterwards. I wasnt. I was content with them further exploring things in the present setting and working their way thru that as there was alot of thnigs that could been done with in that. Again their whole lets off the old and make the new was the driving compenoent behind it, so logic and good story writing werent. Why no other series really does that cause its a bad idea do what this movie did to a series. Only thnig remotely close to mirroring it was beast war machines(too massive of a change, removing too much of the previous cast....awful new forms..), which also horribly flopped..notion the pattern.
...Sure you can theorize and justify the reasons for that all you want externally, but in the show itself, he just betrayed Megatron over and over and Megatron didn't do a damn thing about it...
Actually several decepticons thru out the series did the sme thing or backstabbed their way to power. I never got a different view of the cons as they were always out for number one most the time. In triple take over astrotrain, the constructicons , and blitzwing all betrayed megs. The insecticons basically turned on the decepticons and werent loyal to them at all. Octane and tripticon both betrayed galvatron. Motor master basically didnt follow orders accept when he felt like it. The combaticons had their own base off the ship, and swindle in particular didnt really give a crap about what megatron or the decepticons wanted. They all together almost destroyed the earth in bruticus' revenge. They were criminals against the decepticons in the first place, why their sparks were being held in the prison on cybertron.
Starscream was far from alone in this, which megatron keeping him in line was usually an easier way of keeping the rest of the herd at bay. For someone to one up megatron, they basically had to remove soundwave and starscream from his path to pull it off. Soundwave for his constant kissing of megs butt, and starscream wouldnt ever let anyone else take over but himself. He being one of the most powerful decepticons held the rest of the potential backstabbers at bay. Which tripletake over even furthers this point with the fact astrotrain and blitzwing make sure take out screamer with megs.
The decepticons ideals mean the strongest rule, then having a weakling second in command wouldnt make much sense. With in their own structure starscream makes perfect sense, as hes only doing what they re supposed to do. If megs cant keep him down then he shouldnt be leader is the way they look at it. Which if anything keeps him on his toes. Megs and starscream both have a use for each other, as starscream despite having a few windows over the series, picks his time to try usurp power. (during cosmic rust he could killed megs easily.)
So given all that, him blasting screamer dead in the movie didnt make much sense. Him coming back and taking over did. Him blowing up screamer, and having his shots proving less than effective against Hot rod is another glaringly instant of plot armor and weakness. I mean why would he hold back against hot rod? (which he takes a couple shots holding the matrix up alone.which later in the series hes shown be less powerful than prime is.)
Then "Megatron" comes back and they all try to pick things up again but it quickly becomes apparent that Galvatron is a nutjob and now they don't know WHAT the hell to do...
You wanted the villains to be menacing or not? you seem be the inconsistent one here. Galvatron drove the decepticons into the ground. Wasnt till the hate plague infected him and the matrix cleansed him did he seem have a remote semblance of being megatron and sane. (which likely why he was able to do anything remotely constructive in rebirth.)
really liked that...And as for everyone previously "loving" Megatron, I always found that to be inconsistant...It seemed to me that was supposed to be a big difference between the Autobots and Decepticons...The Autobots would always persevere because they were loyal to Prime, their cause, and each other...The Decepticons were destined for failure because they all had their own agendas and were constantly trying to climb over each other for power...At least, that's the impression that was given...But it was never portrayed consistantly (except with Starscream)...
Yes they were portrayed as fighting for their chance to advance as I mentioned above, but they they follow the strongest ruler, thats why they loved megs. He was what they wanted to be. (even starscream why he hated him so much.) They wanna advance but with too much chaos they d all rip apart themselves and get no where (look what happens on chaar after the loss of megatron and galavatron), so has be order for them to achieve anything. They follow orders well enough to feed their bellies. With a power vacuum with neither megatron or starscream to lead the cons lesser members all fought over scraps and were willing follow the quints cause they were so worn done. If theyd followed them long enough once they regained their bearings they went likely turned on them and taken the resource they had cause thats what decepticons do.
Which why they follow megatron, hes the strongest and usually got results of some kind, even when he was "losing" as his troops never straved which meant a chance grow stronger and advance. Under galvatron they did, and were being constantly beat down by even him.A recipe for failure. He was a horrible leader up till return of optimus prime. Only then did he seem be capable of leading again.
Stories like this frequently have some type of foe that is really hardcore but hasn't been heard of until its point of entry...
Which other thnigs that use that sort of thing are shonen jumps like DBZ. (they constantly had originless big bads) its a cheap tactic, and usually serves the whole next bigger bad guy to replace the old angle.
See my massive probelm with that is the planet he atatcked knew exactly what he was when he attacked. To fact he even told the autobots what he was when they were on the quints homeworld. If the whole deal was no world ever had any survivors to tell anyone else there was such a being, but he clearly had some logical process to what he did as he wasnt some rabid monster, so someone had to told them about unicron prior.
For them to done nothing and died is maddening. Id hope if there was ever some horrible planet killing being in the universe, other races had enough self preservation to try contact us or other worlds to try and kill it. That goes against the notion all life in the universe seems have engrained in it. Survive at any cost.
Whats even more outlandhish is fact seemingly the only thnig he claims can stop him is the matrix. (which also didnt exist till the movie.) How would he know that exactly, as he was described just a machine created by an insane inventer to wipe out the universe and make whatever he wanted in its place. Why would an invention made by this guy only be weak against something the guy didnt likely know existed in the first place? Which if the matrix was such a huge deal, why not oh, crush galvatron with it?
Which whole matrix killing unicron crosses another pet peeve of mine. I dont care for plot device heavy wins, but the worst kind of all, power of love/goodness kills bad guys wins are the lamest of all. The matrix basically unleashed good energy to kill unicorn, who wasnt evil incarnate just a big dumb machine to erase all life. I can deal with the idea of him just being a giant transformer (size of a planet seemed a bit over kill.) but magically evil and weakn against good, that i cant.
Ultimately I felt the very notion of that wizs all over the sci fi aspects of the show. (and the comics for that matter, as they made the whole trasformer gods out of primus and unicron. as makes ficiton mirror real life faiths too much.) I like my sci fi to stay sci fi. Having magical devices powered by goodness isnt sci fi.
Bottomline the matrix and unicron didnt fit into the previous story at all, and were a massive retcon.A very poor one at that.
Though I had absolutely nothing against the Transformers to this point (was and would continue to be my alltime favourite cartoon), I feel the movie really kicked the series in the ass to wake it up a bit...
Which you couldnt be further from the truth considering it killed the series off, yeah. (one of the heavy contributing factors anyways.) I dont question you re a fan, as I see you enjoy it, just I dont think you enjoy quite for reason I do.
Which i cant understand how you can even accuse a show only been on the air for two seasons such stagnation. Was two years, which comics are far worse about maintaining( as characters litterally wont stay dead) status qua than transformers ever was. It brought about change in the same way brand new day brought lack of change back.
I realize when i buy a car Im going have to eventually replace something, but if its everything all at once its a bad day. Thats what transformer did to its fans. Was like someone sideswiped your car on the highway and forced you buy a whole new car rather than just losing a few parts over the course of time. Might make an exciting story, but it isnt a way regularly operate.
Like i said they could created all changes they did without the destruction, they just opted to bastardize everythnig for their fans. I litterally would punch whoever it was that was who suggested it on behalf of ever parent that had put up with a crying kid, or the kids who came into the movie expecting to see their heroes ride off into sun set one more time a blow knock unicron into orbit. Thankfully for them they re likely too old for me warrent beating the daylights out of. Theyd still deserve it though.
If they made a justice league movie, and showed all older characters like superman get wasted viciously and introduced a bunch of so so to down right horrible replacements then it likely horribly bomb too. There d be massive fan outrage to say the least. People felt betrayed, mostly from stand point was no death before hand, or following. We didnt sign up for that.
...As a young kid, it was a HUGE deal to me and for reasons I wouldn't even understand until much later, I fully and willingly embraced all the new directions in which the Movie threw the series...
Im glad someone out there did, cause I sure as heck didnt. I like new characters(the technobots, springer, outside of his crappy alt modes, ultra magnus, broadside, hot rod as hot rod, and few others), as some good ones did exist after the movie, just not as many as I felt the series lost to get there.
This right here sums up alot of fans reactions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y
(is swearing, dont watch at work.) Wasnt quite everything id ever wished for to happen in transformers, as in some othe reality someone decided make a movie sticking to original plot where optimus prime assemble a unit of new transformers from across the universe to mount an assault to liberate cybertron for good, and uses a ton of new guys and older ones together with no one dying or mention of unicron.
And by the way, this is the most entertaining debate I've had in quite some time...I guess that's kind of pathetic, but whatever
Long as you re enjoying it, I bring up stuff to provoke thoughts rather than provoke people heh.
"The question that once haunted my being has been answered. The future is not fixed, and my choices are my own. And yet, how ironic...for I now find that I have no choice at all! I am a warrior...let the battle be joined." —Dinobot