Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

by **Capt.Failure** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:12 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Their representation of what Transformers is all about is pretty spot on. There's not much to Transformers really. I'm a fan but I don't let my enjoyment of the franchise convince me there's some deeper meaning that isn't there. The convoluted mess of continuity that is the Transformers lore and setting does not qualify it as "deep" by any objective definition. It's more like a poorly maintained toybox, full of bits and pieces of stuff that can be picked and chosen to have fun with.

Ultimately Bay gets it right by trimming the accumulated fat, even if you don't agree. Whether he reaches deeper into the proverbial toybox with the next three films we have yet to see. Ultimately though the quantity of the Transformers lore does not equal quality. And the quality is rather poor.
I wan't referring to either the lore or continuity. What the TFs in these films lack compared to other TF fiction is personality. Most the bots in the films are stock characters who lack development or character exploration, with most of those qualities being given to the human cast. Sam was the one growing and developing (for better or for worse) in the films, with the people he interacted with affecting him and vice versa. The bots, however, were given next to no reasons for us, the audience, to really care for them as characters (Ironhide's death only bugged me in that they killed off a guy I barely anything about and wanted to know more about, but wasn't going to get to know him because of the films not letting us get to know him before he got axed). They're meant to be flashy special effects and nothing more, which is not the case in just about every other piece of Transformers fiction ever created.

I fail to see how this is a complaint considering once in my entire memory did Transformers feature character development that was worthwhile (Beast Wars). I'm not saying they shouldn't be developed as characters, but character development is one of the weakest parts of Transformers as a franchise, if not the weakest. The term you should use for the bot's character development is "par the course."

I also found it refreshing to have human companions who were not completely, utterly useless, or that the series ditched the "alien invader = immune to human weapons by default" trope.

News Credits: 435 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:34 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:I fail to see how this is a complaint considering once in my entire memory did Transformers feature character development that was worthwhile (Beast Wars). I'm not saying they shouldn't be developed as characters, but character development is one of the weakest parts of Transformers as a franchise, if not the weakest. The term you should use for the bot's character development is "par the course."

Beast Machines, Animated, even RiD, Armada, and Cybertron had characters who got development. And there's also the comics, going back to Marvel all the way to today with IDW.

And, it's not just the development that matters, but the characterization. The actual, regular use of a character's personality, which happened in just about all forms of TF fiction, one of the least of which being these films.

by **Capt.Failure** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:44 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:I fail to see how this is a complaint considering once in my entire memory did Transformers feature character development that was worthwhile (Beast Wars). I'm not saying they shouldn't be developed as characters, but character development is one of the weakest parts of Transformers as a franchise, if not the weakest. The term you should use for the bot's character development is "par the course."
Beast Machines, Animated, even RiD, Armada, and Cybertron had characters who got development. And there's also the comics, going back to Marvel all the way to today with IDW.

And, it's not just the development that matters, but the characterization. The actual, regular use of a character's personality, which happened in just about all forms of TF fiction, one of the least of which being these films.

Notice I said "meaningful" character development.

Concerning characterization, well there's nothing to argue. Shy of development the personalities were spot on. By the way, don't even start with Optimus being "too violent." No one complained when he mowed down 11 Decepticons indiscriminately in the '86 movie.

by **Doubledealer93** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:54 pm

all i have to say is that these movies better be good, and same with the toys. i wont have a problem with them as along as there is more robot and less humans

News Credits: 5 · by **RodimalToyota** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:55 pm

That sounds great, I really don't mind keeping the Franchise movies all in continuity with each other, I love the Dark look of Bay's films, His Cinematographer is one of the best in Hollywood.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:29 pm

Re: Characterization.

Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???

In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.

Some key examples:

In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.

In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).

But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.

And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?

I don't get it. :HEADHURTS:

by **RAcast** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:32 pm

Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.

Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???

In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.

Some key examples:

In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.

In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).

But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.

And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?

I don't get it.

At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:42 pm

RAcast wrote:
Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.

Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???

In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.

Some key examples:

In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.

In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).

But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.

And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?

I don't get it.

At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.

While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).

Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.

I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.

Why is that too much to ask? :???:

by **Capt.Failure** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:49 pm

Bradimus wrote:
RAcast wrote:
Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.

Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???

In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.

Some key examples:

In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.

In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).

But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.

And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?

I don't get it.

At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.

While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).

Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.

I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.

Why is that too much to ask?

So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"

:roll:

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:00 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:
Bradimus wrote:
RAcast wrote:
Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.

Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???

In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.

Some key examples:

In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.

In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).

But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.

And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?

I don't get it.

At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.

While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).

Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.

I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.

Why is that too much to ask?

So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"

It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands. >:oP

by **Capt.Failure** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:07 pm

Bradimus wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:
Bradimus wrote:
RAcast wrote:
Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.

Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???

In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.

Some key examples:

In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.

In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).

But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.

And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?

I don't get it.

At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.

While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).

Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.

I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.

Why is that too much to ask?

So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"

It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.

Right, so going by your comments you didn't even see the movie. So my answer still stands.

Come on. Bumblebee was just "there?" Sam talked with him more than his fellow humans. He was the #2 most developed Autobot behind Optimus. In fact your entire response to my post is basically the comparison of Movie Bee to Prime Bee, but in reverse. Prime Bee is a gag character. Movie Bee was an actual character. Don't try to warp facts here.

by **RAcast** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:10 pm

Bradimus wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"

It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.

While he may "talk," and I use that term very loosely about Prime Bee, I still feel like Movie Bee is a more emotive character. Not by a ton, mind you, but it's there.

Prime Bee is no less of a "gag" than Movie Bee is, but Prime Bee should at least have the chance for character development, being a main character in a running series. It ain't gonna happen. Movie Bee has an excuse for being flat.

Further, Movie Bee can at least directly communicate without the need of translation, and the clips that they've used for him have gone over pretty well. Heck, I'd go so far as to say his face is a great deal more expressive than Prime Bee's is, they had to make it that way since he can only communicate through sampling things otherwise. Because Prime Bee CAN "speak," they didn't have to go through the trouble. Anybody see where I'm coming from?

News Credits: 3 · by **Bradimus** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:30 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:
Bradimus wrote:
It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.

Right, so going by your comments you didn't even see the movie. So my answer still stands.

Come on. Bumblebee was just "there?" Sam talked with him more than his fellow humans. He was the #2 most developed Autobot behind Optimus. In fact your entire response to my post is basically the comparison of Movie Bee to Prime Bee, but in reverse. Prime Bee is a gag character. Movie Bee was an actual character. Don't try to warp facts here.

Sam talked to him the most, not with him. That's my problem. But yes, he was the second most developed Autobot. That's not saying much. :???:

RAcast wrote:
Bradimus wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"

It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.

While he may "talk," and I use that term very loosely about Prime Bee, I still feel like Movie Bee is a more emotive character. Not by a ton, mind you, but it's there.

Prime Bee is no less of a "gag" than Movie Bee is, but Prime Bee should at least have the chance for character development, being a main character in a running series. It ain't gonna happen. Movie Bee has an excuse for being flat.

Further, Movie Bee can at least directly communicate without the need of translation, and the clips that they've used for him have gone over pretty well. Heck, I'd go so far as to say his face is a great deal more expressive than Prime Bee's is, they had to make it that way since he can only communicate through sampling things otherwise. Because Prime Bee CAN "speak," they didn't have to go through the trouble. Anybody see where I'm coming from?

Point taken, RAcast, movie Bee is emotive. But Prime Bee is just as much a bada$$.

In answer to both of you, I suppose the Star Wars fan in me prefers the R2D2/C3P0 relationship to the way the movie did things. In Prime, Bee speaks, we cannot understand him, but everyone else can. In the movie, he cannot speak even in basic binary. I suppose it fits Bay's hard look at the price of war better that he's mute without a radio prosthesis, but it just does not work for me.

This is coming from someone who enjoys the first two films and owns both, Capt.Failure. :michaelbay:

by **Xephon0930** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:35 pm

Eh,personally,I'm more interested in a Transformers Prime and MLP crossover,even if it is non-canon.

Cue the fan raging over this one in 3,2,and now!!!!

by **MINDVVIPE** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:49 pm

Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore. Enjoy your flashy garbage, but thats all it is. If you want to know what Transformers are in their evolved from, read the comics, as suggested, from Marvel to IDW.

For the new fans of Transformers due to the movies, hopefully the concept allows them to dig deeper into the good stuff. If not, who cares. There will still be more Beiber fans to irritate me.

Give me more Generations toys and **** off

by **RAcast** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:00 pm

MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore. Enjoy your flashy garbage, but thats all it is. If you want to know what Transformers are in their evolved from, read the comics, as suggested, from Marvel to IDW.

For the new fans of Transformers due to the movies, hopefully the concept allows them to dig deeper into the good stuff. If not, who cares. There will still be more Beiber fans to irritate me.

Give me more Generations toys and **** off

Sorry, Rated X, is that you? :lol:

News Credits: 435 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:25 pm

RAcast wrote:Sorry, Rated X, is that you?

Nah, Rated X and I are never of the same mindset.

by **Capt.Failure** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:26 pm

MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore. Enjoy your flashy garbage, but thats all it is. If you want to know what Transformers are in their evolved from, read the comics, as suggested, from Marvel to IDW.

For the new fans of Transformers due to the movies, hopefully the concept allows them to dig deeper into the good stuff. If not, who cares. There will still be more Beiber fans to irritate me.

Give me more Generations toys and **** off

It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.

News Credits: 435 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:28 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.

Yet, my first post in this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.

News Credits: 668 · by **Autobot032** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:31 pm

MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore.

Incorrect. And knock that off. I've already said once, show respect. You absolutely choose to ignore it.

MINDVVIPE wrote:Give me more Generations toys and **** off

You've crossed a line, here.

by **Capt.Failure** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:41 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
Yet, my first posti n this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.

I'm aware. However, further remarks about the films including the belief that new fans should immediately disregard or be forced to change their opinions are ill informed and uncalled for. If new fans love the films, then so be it. Harboring the belief they need to be "steered the right way" is wrong.

by **Xephon0930** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:50 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
Yet, my first posti n this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.

I'm aware. However, further remarks about the films including the belief that new fans should immediately disregard or be forced to change their opinions are ill informed and uncalled for. If new fans love the films, then so be it. Harboring the belief they need to be "steered the right way" is wrong.

But fans can't get a real Transformers experience with the films as they are now. It is sad when I know more about the movie's Transformers through their package bios than the movie itself.

News Credits: 435 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:56 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
Yet, my first post in this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.

I'm aware. However, further remarks about the films including the belief that new fans should immediately disregard or be forced to change their opinions are ill informed and uncalled for. If new fans love the films, then so be it. Harboring the belief they need to be "steered the right way" is wrong.

I didn't say that (if it was implied, though, that was never my intention). I meant that new fans could use the films as a jumping on point for them to get into the brand and potentially seek out more beyond the films, not that they must immediately jump ship to drown out the films with other TF works.

I don't hate the films, and I appreciate the positives that they have done for the brand. I just don't find them to be the best representations of the Transformers. If others like them, very well.

But, answer me this honestly. The fight/chase/action scenes, the explosions, the eye candy, the etc. can all be considered the icing on the cake, right? Well, take away the icing, leaving only just the cake, and what all is left of the films to consist of the cake?

I've one other question after this, but it depends on what this answer to this is.

News Credits: 435 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:59 pm

Xephon0930 wrote:But fans can't get a real Transformers experience with the films as they are now.

That's kind of a bold statement to make since, well, what exactly is the definition of "a real Transformers experience" (if there even is one)?

by **MINDVVIPE** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:03 pm

Autobot032 wrote:
MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore.

Incorrect. And knock that off. I've already said once, show respect. You absolutely choose to ignore it.

MINDVVIPE wrote:Give me more Generations toys and **** off

You've crossed a line, here.

How am I incorrect? It is my opinion (obviously) and should be taken as such, even if you disagree. I am not showing any disrespect, but saying that (to me, obviously again) Sabrblade is the only one nailing it. And what line did I cross? the no swearing line? The insult line? The "be nice to hasbro/Bay/Movies" line? PM me if you have a problem with me further.