Wheelie Prime wrote:Wow, that’s an excessively aggressive reply. You’re very quick to take offense. Let me be clear: I’m not claiming a superior perspective or trying to offend you. So can we please refrain from immediately sinking to calling one another ignorant? Nobody’s saying that people who enjoy these movies are ignorant. It’s not necessary to tell me to keep my opinions to myself. That’s not constructive. Nor do you have to point out that every paragraph I write contains opinions. But it’s okay, you made some good points here and there, so I will indeed correct myself.
On the stories, what I’m saying is that we know that there are factors that contribute to qualitatively strong storytelling, and that these principles can be read and understood by anyone. You’re twisting my words to say that I’m saying you’re stupid and must not understand screenwriting if you like these movies. Or something like that. No. I’m just offering a basis for discussion other than “I liked the story/I didn't like the story,” namely an answer to the question: “how do you define what makes a good story?” That’s not the same thing as saying it’s dumb to enjoy these movies. That would be absurd. I’m talking about all the technical and logical problems of the movies, in the story, the editing, the lighting, the special effects, etc. Yes, obviously many people don’t see them or ignore them and are able to thoroughly enjoy the movies, but that doesn’t mean these movies don’t have issues.
On the differences between franchises, again, not trying to offend. I’m saying that when we look at other franchises, it’s my opinion that it’s too bad that the Transformers franchise was given a director who was immediately so bent on creating his own vision of Transformers without immersing himself in the source material. Not saying you’re stupid, just saying it’s my opinion that such a divided fan base (on this topic) may attest to the fact that Transformers fans weren’t quite as fortunate in this respect as others.
On Marvel fans, they may well be more mature and intelligent than Transformers fans. I concede that point because I don't have the numbers. But I don’t see why that would necessarily boil down to a qualitatively poorer movie. After all, the target audiences for both these movie franchises are more or less the same.
As to whether not hating the films’ characters means hating Transformers, you’re right. Not what I wanted to communicate. What I meant was, if you like Transformers, like Decepticons, and like the movies, I still don’t see why you would be happy Bay made most of the Decepticons growling mutes, many of them without alt modes. I’m saying, if you like Devastator, of course you don’t have to hate movie Devastator, but that doesn’t mean it’s stupid to have hoped for something more than what we got or to be disappointed.
As I wrote earlier, if you are able to overlook their flaws and enjoy the movies, good. But just two plot holes? It would be trivially easy for you to spend five minutes to Google it and find a number far greater than that. Personally, I am simply disappointed by the quality of the films and that is not a controversial opinion. We’re talking about movies that have an average IMDB rating of 6.4, an average Rotten Tomatoes rating of not 38%, and were mostly panned by critics. But fine, you don’t appreciate the term “sucked.” We’ll just have to say they lacked the necessary qualities for the audience and critics to appreciate them more thoroughly (Fact).
“I am quite experienced with what makes a good story.” Correct yourself.
“Such a reasonable argumemt.” Correct yourself.
“Your right.” Correct yourself.
You hit the nail on the head, I'm so happy you mentioned a couple of things that I pointed out before the first movie got aired. You are right it's all about the respect given to the franchie and how it's handled. Marvel movies have been made with alot of respect to the original franchise. I personally can see loads of differences between the films and the comics, yet there is alot more respect given to what makes the franchise what it is. Bay set out to fix aload of things that weren't broken.
For a start there's the whole design and look of the transformers. This is another argument altogether, but if you look at all the iterations of the Transformers universes, they have eveolved alot over the years, and I am not a fan of most of them, but at the end of the day they are all obviously Transformers and maybe poorly designed, but they are obviously from the Transformers franchise.
Bays transformers, are radically different, so different to the point where they are unrecognisable as transformers.
Why is this such a problem. The problem is Transformers are not the only transforming robots out there. The problem is transformers is loved by aload of people, and the characters are unique looking and the franchise as a whole has a certain look that has been adered to over the years. The whole point of the movie is to cash in on the Transformers popularity and take what makes transformers popular and bring it too life and present it to an already established audience and a potentialy new fanbase.
Lets look at some other franchises that have been brought to life.
Mortal Kombat Vs Street Fighter : Live Action movies.
Street Fighter was a big Budget flop compared to Mortal Kombat which was a lower budget attempt but which was more true to the Mortal Kombat franchise than the Street Fighter movie was to it's franchise. Both movies weren't great but Mortal Kombat gave better justice and represented it's franchise far better than Street Fighter which was modified and changed alot, and it was loosing and altering key elements which was it's downfall.
Super Mario Vs Tomb Raider : Live Action Movies.
Again Super Mario was totaly altered for the big screen where as Lara croft was recognisably Lara croft from the video game. If a franchise has key elements that won't work on the big screen then maybe it shouldn't be made for the big screen becuase then it's a different product altogether.
So basicaly the evidence shows that when a Live action movie of a franchise and stays true to the key elements from story to design and looks, then the finished product will have those elements that made the franchise popular in the movie, and if done well will make for a good film and a good representation of the franchise. When the elements are removed or altered drasticaly for the big screen then the evidence shows almost no good can come from it.
It's not just about making a good film it's about doing justice to a franchise, and taking what makes the franchise popular and putting that on screen, if you ignore those elements than essentialy you are putting a different product on screen.
The reason Bay altered the look we all know wasn't becuase the look wouldn't work on big screen, there are plenty of fan made cgi clips showing that it works fine, obviously there would be refinement, there are design features and limitations to the toys becuase they are toys, so people who say g1 wouldn't work are contradicting themselves and not realising that G1 is a concept, rather than some blocky toys, they have the best designs in the whole franchise it's just a pitty they had production limitations unlike todays incarnations. the same way the movie toys are altered becuase of limitations, is the same way the limitations in g1 designs and other TF universes, would be altered and removed when designed for big screen.
Bay didn't have faith in the look that transformers have lived with for all these years, and more importantly, he didn't have faith that Transforming robots would wow an audience, not unless you took that stement and put it on steroids. Bay made the transformers over the top, thousands of moving bits just to show off how far cgi has come. Even thedesigners said the transformation didn't make real sense, THe actual transformation was eye candy. The actual process is cut at one point , so the actual transformation wouldnt work, so there are 2 models one for the transformation to altmode, which just goes into a mess, and in the mess it's cut to another model which is a mess which transforms into the alternative mode. All that mess is just eye candy. And I would have been much more impressed with a design that had a working transformation and one that had less going on so you could actually focus on it's beauty. Just like the rest of the film constant flasing cut scenes is very flash but thats it, you don't get a chance to admire and take in all the effects.
And yes to everything else you have said. I think I actually enjoyed the movie a bit more than you, but as a Transformers movie I hated it. ANything with giant robots no matter how poorly designed they are has some enjoyment factor for me. But I saw so much potential in the concept of a Transformers live action movie, and Bay didn't deliver. Why can't people who like the movie accept the fact that bay can't deliver on something he is no good at. Just becuase people love/like the film doesn't mean they have to defend bay. If I was to slate Germany, you don't defend Hitlers actions. Hitler is factualy a bad man, you can not argue that point, so when you defend bay you automaticaly loose the argument. When people say that people who hate what bay has done are ignorant, it's not an opinion you are challenging it's a fact. And people are hating the fact that Bay has underwhelmed them with the movies.
The fact that alot of people could have done a better job than Bay, means that people are justified with wanting to see better results. It's so odd that people who are making these comments are on a Transformers FanSIte and they obviously have a passion for TransFormers, but are quite happy to settle for rubbish. On top of settling for less, why attack people who are passionate about wanting the best from a franchise that they love.
Lastly, it's us people who are the so called haters of the movie, that are actualy being respectful and polite. It's the people who love the movie that are calling the haters names and saying they are worng about having an opinion, especialy when certain opions are almost fact. At least us haters can explain ourselves and break it down. And the reason we write so much waffle is becuase you all clearly don't get it, it's not an argument we are looking for. And why are we wrong for having an opinion just becuase it's different from yours. And why are facts and opinions being blurred.
We should expect more, I don't want to enjoy a Transformers Live action movie, I want to be blown away.
