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Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Discuss anything and everything related to the Transformers Live Action Films franchise, which are directed by Michael Bay. Join us to discuss the movies and stuff up to date with news for the 2017 release of Transformers 5. Check out our Live Action Film section here.

Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby cotss2012 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:14 pm

Actually, I was talking about skyfire's changing loyalties and sacrifice in Fire in the Sky, the Dinobots' split loyalties in War of the Dinobots, the whole "when next we meet, we are enemies" angle in The Ultimate Doom, etc... but yeah, if you can make your audience care enough to cry, then that's definitely evidence of emotional depth.

The total disregard for story continuity didn't begin until Season 2.
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

RiddlerJ wrote:Each one will come with an autographed picture of Michael Bay sitting on top of a huge pile of money.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby JOP » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:09 pm

Autobot032 wrote:No one's saying they can't both happen, just that that's usually how it works. Hasbro's main concern is making money. Always has been, always will be. Both sides can't win always and whatever side will make them guaranteed money and a lot of it, will always win.

I could well be wrong, but that's very much the impression I took away from comments by RaH and 5150 Cruiser - that what we might think of as 'critical qualities' (excellence of script, narrative, dialogue) are no more than personal preferences; and preferences that conflict with those of other fans and the larger movie-going public. It is a model in which film-making is portrayed as a zero-sum game; and I reject this.

I do agree with you that Hasbro, Paramount and their ilk are of a mercenary bent; however, this does not mean that they cannot - to stretch a metaphor - "Have their box office success cake and eat it too (with the spoon of critical success"). Now I can understand why, given the track record of such entities (as you suggest), it would be foolish to expect any better of them - but I don't understand why we can't at least hope for better.

Autobot032 wrote:Wait... um... I'm a tad confused here.

Sorry about that. I was calling back to your earlier point regarding Hasbro's ever-increasing production of Bumblebee and Bumblebee-themed accessories.

Autobot032 wrote:I'm not opposed to better writing, but I'm also not expecting it to be overwhelmingly Oscar material either. I guess it's because I'm a realist.

I understand where you are coming from, but but please consider this - Christopher Nolan, Jon Favreau and JJ Abrams have demonstrated (with The Dark Knight, Iron Man, and Star Trek respectively) that the traditional blockbuster movie can aspire for greatness beyond mere financial considerations.

NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget...

That is a very interesting thought. I'm not sure if necessarily it is the budget at fault here, but rather - as I think was brought up earlier in the thread - the choice of director. svk2K posted a very interesting quote by Christopher Nolan:

"...It is a real honor to work on something that means so much to people," Nolan said. "I'd love to be able to claim that I invented the whole thing and that’s why they’re interested. I did not. I’ve been given a very precious thing to do my best with..."

I think the contrast between Nolan and Bay could not be more apparent - one approaches his source material with care, consideration, and humility; the other is, well... Michael Bay... Perhaps if we simply had a director that was more than financially invested in the project; someone more philosophically akin to High Moon Studios?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:thank you very much, You did a better job of wording my point then I did :lol:

You're welcome. :D

RhA wrote:So it's not about what we should want in life, but you're only dictating what we should want in movies?

Again, I think you are interpreting svk2K's comments in an overly literal way. When svk2K speaks to what we deserve, I believe it is simply another way of stating that "Transformers-related material has, at times, achieved excellence on a critical scale; and for a variety of reasons, it would behoove the live-action films to follow suit." I think we have very much clarified at this point that the one thing svk2K is not arguing is that he / she can dictate the expectations and desires of others.

cotss2012 wrote:Someone obviously never saw G1 season 1, TFTM, Beast Wars seasons 2&3, Beast Machines, Animated, or Prime.

I apologize for the confusion here - I was referring solely to the three live-action films, and should not have used the word 'franchise' to do so.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby NatsumeRyu » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:24 pm

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JOP wrote:
NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget...

That is a very interesting thought. I'm not sure if necessarily it is the budget at fault here, but rather - as I think was brought up earlier in the thread - the choice of director. svk2K posted a very interesting quote by Christopher Nolan:

"...It is a real honor to work on something that means so much to people," Nolan said. "I'd love to be able to claim that I invented the whole thing and that’s why they’re interested. I did not. I’ve been given a very precious thing to do my best with..."

I think the contrast between Nolan and Bay could not be more apparent - one approaches his source material with care, consideration, and humility; the other is, well... Michael Bay... Perhaps if we simply had a director that was more than financially invested in the project; someone more philosophically akin to High Moon Studios?


Yeah, that's something like what I meant to say. Basically, we're looking for the people who work on a smaller budget, because I find they tend to be more passionate beyond the money.


Shadowman wrote:
NatsumeRyu wrote:To get a truly fantastic film I honestly think we need a smaller budget. Yes, I said it.


The first movie had a (comparatively) smaller budget. Turns out, CGI is expensive. Turns out, that's why there was so little screen time for the actual robots.

NatsumeRyu wrote:I think the fans would either have to make it (Lord knows enough of us know how, it's just finding the time to volunteer to it)


Someone suggested this around the time of the first movie. The response was, more or less, it would never work because we'd never be able to agree on anything long enough to do it.


Part I: Only because of the direction they took with it. CGI in and of itself isn't horribly expensive. It's what the people working on the first film decided to do with their money. And if the entire thing was done in CGI it'd probably be cheaper than compositing. Hmm, maybe I'm saying: if you give the director and team more money, then you're rewarding them and saying good job. Then they will be more likely to do more of that if asked, right? Well, if you keep the budget the same or lower it, you're telling them something is wrong, and change needs to happen to get that more money.

Part II: Only if they can't be a team. Look at Ng and Smoove. J3.0 and his buddies. Any other numbers of fans who've put out some neat stuff. The talent is there. I mean, heck, we could probably even make TFA s4 if any number of us truly wanted to. Wyatt is kind enough I'm sure he'd be willing to do something, even if just answering questions like "would this character do this?" if not give us some small script to start with. Then it's just up to a team to make that dream come true. It's not hard, honestly, coming from someone who worked on a team of 5 for 4 weeks to make a game prototype for a brand-new concept at the first day of the project. It's just finding the people who can and will do it. They would have to take time out of their day to work on it, and that's the biggest part, if it's volunteer stuff. Just making sure to set aside an hour every week or every few days to get something done. And if the team's big enough, you can say "I can't do it for a month," and have someone else pick that up.

So, that's sort of what I'm trying to say about a "better" Transformers movie, I think fan-made would be the highest possibility of success among the fandom. Not to say that other options don't have chances or opportunities to be better, just that it's less likely to be done the way we're suggesting it.

Speaking of which, if anyone wants a 3D animator, I can devote some time to that. :D
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby ReDPATH » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:36 pm

Transformers is too big of an entity now to be a low budget anything or no name director to be behind the seat for the franchise.

Just not going to happen. Especially in Hasbro's case.

Half the money they make off the films is the hype of Bay (whom has fans whether we like it or not) and the other half arguably the bigger half is the Transformers themselves.

You can bet anything that results in a new Transformers movie.

1. Transformers 4: Unicron
2. Reboot

Will have a name and a big budget behind it. Even if the name is relatively new. It will be a name that's bankable.

Cameron
Spielberg
Nolan
Uwe Boll
Tarantino
Eastwood
Stallone
Lucas
Anderson

Or writer turned director for the movie

Aaron Sorkin - Overrated
Diablo Cody - Would be lols
Kevin Williamson - A movie within a movie

On and on and on. It will be a name
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby Autobot032 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:40 pm

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JOP wrote:I could well be wrong, but that's very much the impression I took away from comments by RaH and 5150 Cruiser - that what we might think of as 'critical qualities' (excellence of script, narrative, dialogue) are no more than personal preferences; and preferences that conflict with those of other fans and the larger movie-going public. It is a model in which film-making is portrayed as a zero-sum game; and I reject this.


Well, I see both sides, but I'm biased, so I'm not the fairest party in this issue.

A better script is fine, I have no problem with that, but the movie going public and their money clearly prove our desires aren't even on the companies back burner, and more likely nowhere near the kitchen.

Past a certain point, wishing and hoping do go to waste.

JOP wrote:I do agree with you that Hasbro, Paramount and their ilk are of a mercenary bent; however, this does not mean that they cannot - to stretch a metaphor - "Have their box office success cake and eat it too (with the spoon of critical success"). Now I can understand why, given the track record of such entities (as you suggest), it would be foolish to expect any better of them - but I don't understand why we can't at least hope for better.


"mercenary bent" I...like that. I really do. That's pretty good. We can hope all we want, there's nothing wrong with it, no laws against it, etc. My problem is, I hate to see so many people get their hopes up so high, only to have them dashed on the rocks below. And they will be dashed. HARD.

See, I read the leaked "scriptment" for the first film, in 2006, I still have it on my PC somewhere. I knew right then and there that if they went with it, it'd be a fun popcorn movie, but not a great TF movie. When the trailers and commercials lined up with what was in the leak, I started to put my hopes a little lower than I had them previously. I still wanted to see it, wasn't going to miss it, but my hopes were lowered.

I went to see it. I was wowed. I was overwhelmed. It was fantastic. What an experience and a joyride. ...then reality set in and multiple viewings showed me the flaws with a giant spotlight from Hell. The film was actually boring, the title characters weren't in it much, the human element was too much. Funny thing is, it was chock full of humans but had no humanity.

My hopes that were raised when the wow factor kicked in, were smashed on the rocks below. That set the mood and the tone for me, for future installments. I knew what to expect going in. ROTF came along and it had it's ludicrous G1 inspired plot, wall to wall action and more robot screen time. Admittedly, the humor didn't always work and the wow factor was gone, but it wasn't boring and it was fun. Granted, I went in with lowered expectations.

DOTM, changed all of that for me. It restored the hope I had for the first film, but actually delivered. It had it's zany G1 inspired storyline, but it had moments of humanity in it. It actually brought me to tears in some scenes. It did what the other two tried, but couldn't do. Wasn't perfect, but it dang sure tried.

JOP wrote:I understand where you are coming from, but but please consider this - Christopher Nolan, Jon Favreau and JJ Abrams have demonstrated (with The Dark Knight, Iron Man, and Star Trek respectively) that the traditional blockbuster movie can aspire for greatness beyond mere financial considerations.


I'm not aspirations are a waste, but in this case they seem rather pointless. Your comparison material is leaps and bounds above what TFs have ever offered.

Batman Begins/The Dark Knight: Always been a tour de force of emotions. Bruce watched his parents get murdered in front of him. It fractured his psyche. He runs around in a batsuit, scaring and beating the hell out of villains. I made it sound silly, but there's a very real dark component to it: Fear. What happened to Bruce can and does happen to people everyday, unfortunately. People want vengeance, people want their justice, even if it means taking it with their own two hands. That connects with us. It addresses a primal emotion.

Iron Man: A seemingly unloved alcoholic with too much money, too much ego and too much power is given a valuable lesson and shook to his core. Sees that his empire, his Father's legacy, has turned into a killing machine taking out innocent men, women and children. It fundamentally changes him and he uses his talents and gifts to change the world, little by little with what he has and is capable of doing. That also connects with us on a deep, emotional level. Most people want to embrace their inner good and do great works with it.

Star Trek: Uses alien species to show us that their is equality among the human race. It doesn't matter if you're White, Black, Purple, Green or whatever color you wish, you are part of the grand scheme and matter just as much as the rest. It was about tearing down the walls and uniting the peoples. Now, it's not just about color, but religion and sexual orientation. Everyone's an equal person in the Star Trek universe, which teaches us a lesson and along the way, we're wowed with special effects that are out of this world. (Pardon the pun.)

TransFormers: Giant robots have ripped their planet apart in civil war and crashed here by accident. We try to integrate them into our lives and adapt. We welcome them with open arms. (G1.) In the Bayverse, they come looking for the Allspark and need a pair of glasses, sighted on someone's eBay page, to help them locate it. Mass hysteria ensues, but not a single human dies during the final confrontation. (No realism there.) ROTF: Optimus dies, but comes back. DOTM: Actions have consequences. People DO die, people DO suffer, it's as real as it's going to get. DOTM should give you hope. It shows they're trying to branch out and go places they hadn't gone before, emotionally.

Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys. There's not a lot of work involved to do that. You make 'em flash, you make 'em loud and you make 'em exciting and that's exactly what the movies did and it worked.

I don't have a lot of emotional connection with the TransFormers. I know Optimus is capable of being a better person than his movieverse self, I know he's a big hero. Same with Bumblebee and the rest of the Autobots. But you can't always connect with alien robots. To a certain extent, you can, but only to a certain point.

You can connect with Bruce Wayne. You can share his fears and his pain. You can connect with Tony Stark. You can feel unloved and lost and then find out the truth and feel empowered and do something good with your gifts. You can connect with Kirk, Spock and especially Data. You can see there's more to attain to with being human and seeing there's only one race, that we're all human and while not perfect, we can help better each other if we give it a chance.

You can't connect all that much with alien robots that destroyed their planet with their stupidity, and now need a handout and a hand up. I mean, when it comes down to it, that's really what TransFormers boils down to.

Sure, you have your Christ figure with Optimus. Sure, you have your political and socioeconomic commentary with the Autobots VS the Decepticons, but... if not handled right, the former can be seen as offensive and heavy handed, and the latter can be seen as boring and heavy handed.

TransFormers stories have had depth before, they will again. But they're not well known for their "Wow. I just got that. How incredibly sad." moments. They're known for "WE WILL KILL THEM ALL!"

I knew this a long time ago, I know it now. I came to terms with it long ago. I'm fine with that. I love the toys, they're my foremost love when it comes to TransFormers, then comes the media tie ins that help sell it. Some of it's entertaining, some of it connects with you to some degree, but it's not deep thought material and never has been. The fact that we've been able to connect at all, is a miracle.

Maybe I'm too much of a realist, I don't know, but that's how I see it. What we've gotten so far has exceeded my expectations on some fronts, failed on others. It's just what I've come to expect.
NOTE: Realize that I am not a perfect Christian, nor do I profess to be. I apologize if anyone's ever offended by me, I'm not perfect. Don't hold my posts and opinions against other Christians.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:04 pm

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JOP wrote:I could well be wrong, but that's very much the impression I took away from comments by RaH and 5150 Cruiser - that what we might think of as 'critical qualities' (excellence of script, narrative, dialogue) are no more than personal preferences; and preferences that conflict with those of other fans and the larger movie-going public. It is a model in which film-making is portrayed as a zero-sum game; and I reject this.


I can only speak for me and not RHA, but that's not what I was intending to say. My apologies if that's how you perceived it.
My point was more in lines of Autobot32's. I'm not in any way opposed to better writing, script etc. If they can make it work while still keeping the action then great. My point was while many felt the script, plot and story was lacking in the movies, I did not. As did many others. I felt for the most part they were just fine and did not only what they were supposed to, but exceeded. Bay & co. also really did cater too many of our requests. He brought in more mythos, more characters, better stories, and darker tones. But in the end, the fandom still wasn't happy.
As far as "better" writing and scripts go, the claim that we have gotten better though out the years is also largely subjective. There have been stories that I’ve read that I’ve considered good, while others ripped apart and vis. versa. And let’s be honest with ourselves... Yes, we have had some good stories over the years, but for the most part they haven't been great. They've suffered from the same script, narratives and dialogue that many complain the movies suffer from. And since there are some many flaws in most TF stories and what people like is largely subjective, that’s where I have a problem when someone says...
"We should have gotten the best".

Autobot032 wrote: Well, I see both sides, but I'm biased, so I'm not the fairest party in this issue.

A better script is fine, I have no problem with that, but the movie going public and their money clearly prove our desires aren't even on the companies back burner, and more likely nowhere near the kitchen.

Past a certain point, wishing and hoping do go to waste.

JOP wrote:I do agree with you that Hasbro, Paramount and their ilk are of a mercenary bent; however, this does not mean that they cannot - to stretch a metaphor - "Have their box office success cake and eat it too (with the spoon of critical success"). Now I can understand why, given the track record of such entities (as you suggest), it would be foolish to expect any better of them - but I don't understand why we can't at least hope for better.


"mercenary bent" I...like that. I really do. That's pretty good. We can hope all we want, there's nothing wrong with it, no laws against it, etc. My problem is, I hate to see so many people get their hopes up so high, only to have them dashed on the rocks below. And they will be dashed. HARD.

See, I read the leaked "scriptment" for the first film, in 2006, I still have it on my PC somewhere. I knew right then and there that if they went with it, it'd be a fun popcorn movie, but not a great TF movie. When the trailers and commercials lined up with what was in the leak, I started to put my hopes a little lower than I had them previously. I still wanted to see it, wasn't going to miss it, but my hopes were lowered.

I went to see it. I was wowed. I was overwhelmed. It was fantastic. What an experience and a joyride. ...then reality set in and multiple viewings showed me the flaws with a giant spotlight from Hell. The film was actually boring, the title characters weren't in it much, the human element was too much. Funny thing is, it was chock full of humans but had no humanity.

My hopes that were raised when the wow factor kicked in, were smashed on the rocks below. That set the mood and the tone for me, for future installments. I knew what to expect going in. ROTF came along and it had it's ludicrous G1 inspired plot, wall to wall action and more robot screen time. Admittedly, the humor didn't always work and the wow factor was gone, but it wasn't boring and it was fun. Granted, I went in with lowered expectations.

DOTM, changed all of that for me. It restored the hope I had for the first film, but actually delivered. It had it's zany G1 inspired storyline, but it had moments of humanity in it. It actually brought me to tears in some scenes. It did what the other two tried, but couldn't do. Wasn't perfect, but it dang sure tried.

JOP wrote:I understand where you are coming from, but but please consider this - Christopher Nolan, Jon Favreau and JJ Abrams have demonstrated (with The Dark Knight, Iron Man, and Star Trek respectively) that the traditional blockbuster movie can aspire for greatness beyond mere financial considerations.


I'm not aspirations are a waste, but in this case they seem rather pointless. Your comparison material is leaps and bounds above what TFs have ever offered.

Batman Begins/The Dark Knight: Always been a tour de force of emotions. Bruce watched his parents get murdered in front of him. It fractured his psyche. He runs around in a batsuit, scaring and beating the hell out of villains. I made it sound silly, but there's a very real dark component to it: Fear. What happened to Bruce can and does happen to people everyday, unfortunately. People want vengeance, people want their justice, even if it means taking it with their own two hands. That connects with us. It addresses a primal emotion.

Iron Man: A seemingly unloved alcoholic with too much money, too much ego and too much power is given a valuable lesson and shook to his core. Sees that his empire, his Father's legacy, has turned into a killing machine taking out innocent men, women and children. It fundamentally changes him and he uses his talents and gifts to change the world, little by little with what he has and is capable of doing. That also connects with us on a deep, emotional level. Most people want to embrace their inner good and do great works with it.

Star Trek: Uses alien species to show us that their is equality among the human race. It doesn't matter if you're White, Black, Purple, Green or whatever color you wish, you are part of the grand scheme and matter just as much as the rest. It was about tearing down the walls and uniting the peoples. Now, it's not just about color, but religion and sexual orientation. Everyone's an equal person in the Star Trek universe, which teaches us a lesson and along the way, we're wowed with special effects that are out of this world. (Pardon the pun.)

TransFormers: Giant robots have ripped their planet apart in civil war and crashed here by accident. We try to integrate them into our lives and adapt. We welcome them with open arms. (G1.) In the Bayverse, they come looking for the Allspark and need a pair of glasses, sighted on someone's eBay page, to help them locate it. Mass hysteria ensues, but not a single human dies during the final confrontation. (No realism there.) ROTF: Optimus dies, but comes back. DOTM: Actions have consequences. People DO die, people DO suffer, it's as real as it's going to get. DOTM should give you hope. It shows they're trying to branch out and go places they hadn't gone before, emotionally.

Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys. There's not a lot of work involved to do that. You make 'em flash, you make 'em loud and you make 'em exciting and that's exactly what the movies did and it worked.

I don't have a lot of emotional connection with the TransFormers. I know Optimus is capable of being a better person than his movieverse self, I know he's a big hero. Same with Bumblebee and the rest of the Autobots. But you can't always connect with alien robots. To a certain extent, you can, but only to a certain point.

You can connect with Bruce Wayne. You can share his fears and his pain. You can connect with Tony Stark. You can feel unloved and lost and then find out the truth and feel empowered and do something good with your gifts. You can connect with Kirk, Spock and especially Data. You can see there's more to attain to with being human and seeing there's only one race, that we're all human and while not perfect, we can help better each other if we give it a chance.

You can't connect all that much with alien robots that destroyed their planet with their stupidity, and now need a handout and a hand up. I mean, when it comes down to it, that's really what TransFormers boils down to.

Sure, you have your Christ figure with Optimus. Sure, you have your political and socioeconomic commentary with the Autobots VS the Decepticons, but... if not handled right, the former can be seen as offensive and heavy handed, and the latter can be seen as boring and heavy handed.

TransFormers stories have had depth before, they will again. But they're not well known for their "Wow. I just got that. How incredibly sad." moments. They're known for "WE WILL KILL THEM ALL!"

I knew this a long time ago, I know it now. I came to terms with it long ago. I'm fine with that. I love the toys, they're my foremost love when it comes to TransFormers, then comes the media tie ins that help sell it. Some of it's entertaining, some of it connects with you to some degree, but it's not deep thought material and never has been. The fact that we've been able to connect at all, is a miracle.

Maybe I'm too much of a realist, I don't know, but that's how I see it. What we've gotten so far has exceeded my expectations on some fronts, failed on others. It's just what I've come to expect.


You sir..... Get the award for best post of 2012!! :APPLAUSE: :APPLAUSE: :APPLAUSE:
Decepticons... Com in get yo ice cream!.... And then get yo ass whop'in!!

Suck my popsicle!! :p

Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby cotss2012 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:55 pm

ReDPATH wrote:Kevin Williamson - A movie within a movie


Image
I do not blame Michael Bay for crapping all over a huge part of my childhood. He just directed the scripts that were given to him. I blame Orci, Kurtzman, and Krueger, who seem completely incapable of concocting a story that even halfway makes sense.

RiddlerJ wrote:Each one will come with an autographed picture of Michael Bay sitting on top of a huge pile of money.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:05 am

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JOP wrote:I think we have very much clarified at this point that the one thing svk2K is not arguing is that he / she can dictate the expectations and desires of others.


again thankyou.
Autobot032 wrote:Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys.


See, thats where your wrong,The cartoon is not the true original "source material".

From the start, the tf fiction had more "depth" then just a toy add.Maybe not in the cartoon, but certainly in the comics, which came before the cartoon.And while the comic had its share of silly stories, it also had its share of material that appealed to the "deep thinkers".

And thats what this brand has in common with Batman.The character of Bruce Wayne/Batman has been depicted in many different ways over the years in the mediums of comics, live action and animated.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:48 am

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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Autobot032 wrote:Michael Bay gave us some serious street cred when the movies ended up being profitable, but they weren't deep thinkers. Problem is, neither was the source material. Some stories were, but for the most part, this was a promotional item to sell toys.


See, thats where your wrong,The cartoon is not the true original "source material".

From the start, the tf fiction had more "depth" then just a toy add.Maybe not in the cartoon, but certainly in the comics, which came before the cartoon.And while the comic had its share of silly stories, it also had its share of material that appealed to the "deep thinkers".

And thats what this brand has in common with Batman.The character of Bruce Wayne/Batman has been depicted in many different ways over the years in the mediums of comics, live action and animated.


Couple of things..
First, the whole problem with that aurgument is no one ever bring up the first comics for source material. Its always G1 and the stories of G1. And the fact that they weren't the orignal souce material is irrelevent as the point is the source material (whitch includes the comics)just wasn't very good in terms or stories, plot, dialogue and everything else many complain about the movies.
Second,.."Deep thinkers??" I'm sorry, but early TF comics were anything but that. And when exactly did they come out? According to what i could find out, they came out roughly the same time the series did.

Even if there were a couple good stories, and deep thinking, that's very little (if any) good material to take from. Thats like saying..
"Ya, i know we had a hundred or so bad, corny stories, but there were one or two really good ones. The movie writers should have taken material from those two stories."

Autobot32 is right. When it comes to source material, TF don't have alot to go by. (at least nothing swe inspiring).
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:38 am

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5150 Cruiser wrote: Couple of things..
First, the whole problem with that aurgument is no one ever bring up the first comics for source material. Its always G1 and the stories of G1.


"no one ever bring up the first comics for source material"???I do all the time, I'm sure I'm "some one".

And I have seen many others bring it up.And even if they dont, its irrelevant, fact is comic was first, it doesnt matter if its mentioned in debates.

the point is the source material (whitch includes the comics)just wasn't very good in terms or stories, plot, dialogue and everything else many complain about the movies.


the think is that the comics did indeed have its share of good examples of "good stories, plot, dialogue and everything else"

It may not have been 100% of the time, but it was at least close to half.

Second,.."Deep thinkers??" I'm sorry, but early TF comics were anything but that.


I said they had matrial the appealed to deep thinkers, and they did.

And when exactly did they come out? According to what i could find out, they came out roughly the same time the series did.


you need to do better research.

Marvels US G1 TF #1 was released/first went on sale on May 22 1984.

The G1 cartoon pilot first aired in the US on September 17, 1984...........almost 4 months later.

Even if there were a couple good stories, and deep thinking, that's very little (if any) good material to take from. Thats like saying..
"Ya, i know we had a hundred or so bad, corny stories, but there were one or two really good ones. The movie writers should have taken material from those two stories."


there were more then a few, but even if, as I pointed out, the idea of taking a product out of 1 medium and bringing it to a major film is based on the idea of doing it better then it has been donr.

So, I dont see the flaw in thinking they should have tried to improve on what those 2 stories had done.......as your senerio suggest.
(at least nothing swe inspiring).

whats "awe inspiring" would differ depending on who you ask.............and again, I down see anyone asking for awe inspiring "stories, plot, dialogue and everything else"

Autobot32 ,and you are wrong.When it comes to source material, TF fiction has had quite a few good examples to go by.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:05 pm

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sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Autobot32 ,and you are wrong.When it comes to source material, TF fiction has had quite a few good examples to go by.


Then i guess were just going to have to agree to disagree. They were what they were. 80's comics made to apeal to young kids. Now that's not bad. They did there job and they did it well. But there stories weren't ground break, nor did they apply to any deep thinkers. But one things for sure..

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:whats "awe inspiring" would differ depending on who you ask..............


And that's pretty much been my point though this whole debate. What you might concider good stories, better writing etc.. Is largely subjective.
Decepticons... Com in get yo ice cream!.... And then get yo ass whop'in!!

Suck my popsicle!! :p

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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:53 pm

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5150 Cruiser wrote: Then i guess were just going to have to agree to disagree. They were what they were. 80's comics made to apeal to young kids. Now that's not bad.


agreeing to disagree is cool, but Marvel hasnt, in genarl, ever marked their comics for kids only, and the TF comic from Marvel doesnt break from that. Marvel target the G1 comic at teens, or as they like to call them "young adults".

And that's pretty much been my point though this whole debate. What you might concider good stories, better writing etc.. Is largely subjective.


and even in that, good writing, good acting, is mensurable.

I havel seen anyone ask for an Oscar level acting performance, or a story/script that is awe inspiring.

But we at least deserved not to have a character repeat the same line
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds

T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach

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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby JOP » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:03 pm

NatsumeRyu wrote:Yeah, that's something like what I meant to say. Basically, we're looking for the people who work on a smaller budget, because I find they tend to be more passionate beyond the money.

I can understand that. Also, I suspect that a reduced budget would also shift focus away from the summer blockbuster market; and in turn, reduce pressure to produce a more mercenary end product.

Autobot032 wrote:A better script is fine, I have no problem with that, but the movie going public and their money clearly prove our desires aren't even on the companies back burner, and more likely nowhere near the kitchen.

I think at its simplest, the problem is this: Michael Bay can be held directly responsible for both the poor directorial quality of the three Transformers films, and their phenomenal financial success; his ability to deliver the latter ensures that his failure to correct the former will go unquestioned by the monetarily motivated likes of Hasbro and Paramount. The future involve of Michael Bay, or a Michael Bay-like director, strongly suggests that critical quality issues will go unaddressed.

Autobot032 wrote:"mercenary bent" I...like that. I really do. That's pretty good. We can hope all we want, there's nothing wrong with it, no laws against it, etc. My problem is, I hate to see so many people get their hopes up so high, only to have them dashed on the rocks below. And they will be dashed. HARD.

Indeed; at this time, there does not appear to be any evidence to suggest that a change in directorial direction will occur - ergo, we can expect more of the same. I think I bring the matter up because I find some fans positing that the current focus on financial success somehow negates criticism of the films in general - a stance I disagree with both on logical grounds, and because I believe it is important that someone, somewhere attempts to maintain high expectations.

Autobot032 wrote:DOTM should give you hope. It shows they're trying to branch out and go places they hadn't gone before, emotionally.

I do agree that Dark of the Moon represented the zeitgeist of the learning curve for Bay and his crew; however, I also worry that certain elements - such as the character fatalities - were more indicative of a desire to round out the trilogy, and not necessarily suggestive of an effort to heighten the emotional stakes per se.

Autobot032 wrote:Maybe I'm too much of a realist, I don't know, but that's how I see it. What we've gotten so far has exceeded my expectations on some fronts, failed on others. It's just what I've come to expect.

I can understand that; it's a sensible position to undertake. By contrast, I'm an idealist - although I recognize the potential futility of my position. Still, I have to try - I might lack direct agency, but at least I can provide a voice of reason...

5150 Cruiser wrote: My point was more in lines of Autobot32's. I'm not in any way opposed to better writing, script etc. If they can make it work while still keeping the action then great. My point was while many felt the script, plot and story was lacking in the movies, I did not. As did many others. I felt for the most part they were just fine and did not only what they were supposed to, but exceeded.

Thank you for clarifying matters; you have greatly improved my understanding of your position. Suffice to say, I do not agree with your assessment of the presence of the critical qualities under discussion within the Transformers trilogy; however, I do respect your stance. Perhaps we can discuss the matter in a new thread.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:again thank you.

That's what I'm here for. :D
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby Autobot032 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:31 pm

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JOP wrote:Suffice to say, I do not agree with your assessment of the presence of the critical qualities under discussion within the Transformers trilogy; however, I do respect your stance. Perhaps we can discuss the matter in a new thread.


Now see? You and I would do just fine. It might get heated a time or two, but we're on the same page when it comes to the respect issue. I commend you for being able to admit that on the board, in a topic such as this.

If only more posters were like you.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby Blackmoon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:59 am

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I don't know if anyone else saw this but I figured I'd post it.



UPDATE: Bay himself has spoken out about directing TF4, and though the studios are pushing for his involvement, Bay is still weighing his options:


Right now I’m not decided on Transformers 4… Studio’s are passing rumors but I’m not sure what I’m doing? I know I’m going to do Pain and Gain early spring but that’s it for right now. I’m leaving all my options on the table. I’ve got several Studio meetings in the next two weeks.

What we do know is that there’s already a rough plan in place for the film since producer Don Murphy already came out and said the next film would not be a prequel and that it would continue the franchise’s focus on human characters in an effort to kickstart a second Transformers trilogy. According to Vulture, this remains true and TF4 will “delve deeper into Transformers canon to mine older characters and lore.” One of their insiders says the following that we can take as a hint:


”Regular people might not care about bringing out a character like Sentinel Prime. But believe me, fans of the series cared.”

Fans who saw Transformers: Dark of the Moon understand that it would be difficult to continue the series as is due to how of the characters ended up by the story’s conclusion. We can therefore expect radical changes and plethora of new characters, perhaps even mining stories from some of the other animated television series.

Expect Transformers 4 to release in summer 2014.



The whole story was found here.
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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby RhA » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:01 am

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Blackmoon wrote:I don't know if anyone else saw this but I figured I post it.



UPDATE: Bay himself has spoken out about directing TF4, and though the studios are pushing for his involvement, Bay is still weighing his options:


Right now I’m not decided on Transformers 4… Studio’s are passing rumors but I’m not sure what I’m doing? I know I’m going to do Pain and Gain early spring but that’s it for right now. I’m leaving all my options on the table. I’ve got several Studio meetings in the next two weeks.

What we do know is that there’s already a rough plan in place for the film since producer Don Murphy already came out and said the next film would not be a prequel and that it would continue the franchise’s focus on human characters in an effort to kickstart a second Transformers trilogy. According to Vulture, this remains true and TF4 will “delve deeper into Transformers canon to mine older characters and lore.” One of their insiders says the following that we can take as a hint:


”Regular people might not care about bringing out a character like Sentinel Prime. But believe me, fans of the series cared.”

Fans who saw Transformers: Dark of the Moon understand that it would be difficult to continue the series as is due to how of the characters ended up by the story’s conclusion. We can therefore expect radical changes and plethora of new characters, perhaps even mining stories from some of the other animated television series.

Expect Transformers 4 to release in summer 2014.



The whole story was found here.


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Re: Michael Bay close to signing deal for Transformers 4!

Postby JOP » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:03 am

Autobot032 wrote:Now see? You and I would do just fine. It might get heated a time or two, but we're on the same page when it comes to the respect issue. I commend you for being able to admit that on the board, in a topic such as this.

Absolutely. To be sure, the live-action movies have a certain polarizing quality (a problem inherent to mainstream adaptations of subculture material, I suspect); however, this aspect is often and unnecessarily exacerbated across the boards by new and old fans alike. There is no reason as to why we can't conduct ourselves civilly and, in the true spirit of debate (as opposed to pointless polemics), learn a little about one another in the process. :)
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Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby The Dude » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:34 am

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So Michael Bay was just confirmed to direct Transformers 4 in 2014. And the enitre fandom cried to their mommies that it's just not fair and that Michael Bay's the Antichrist and that, oh, it's a given that it will suck, but I say...

CALM THE FRAG DOWN

No director is in complete control of every aspect of a movie. In most movies, there's a thing called a script, which writes down every line of dialogue and everything that happens in the movie. And the great thing is, it's usually written by completely different people. And IMBA* the first movie got by on a funny, realistic script from the best pair of blockbuster screenwriters out there: Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman. The second movie failed because it was rushed after the writers' strike, and that's that.

We know who the director will be. We know nothing about who the writers will be. Unless Michael Bay decides he's Orson Welles now and has to direct, write, and star in all his movies, we have very little to worry about. For all we know, Charlie Kaufman is gonna turn around and write the most mind-blowingly brilliant piece of Transformers fiction ever written. Something not even good old MB could completely ruin. So get a grip.

*I don't use IMO. I use IMBA (I May Be Assassinated).
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby Evil_the_Nub » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:16 pm

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I'm sick of the whining too. It's been going on for 5 years and most of it is crap. "Optimus has flames so I'm going to make death threats on Michael Bay." "Ironhide isn't red so the movies suck just because of that." I've heard less whining from fat kids on a diet.
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:20 am

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
He used to put himself into his movies... :P

But yeah, some people just can't get over getting their "childhood raped by Michael Bay." Boo f**king hoo. Nobody says you have to watch the films.
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby Autobot032 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:30 am

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*sighs* Not one of these threads....

1.) It won't end well.
2.) It's been said a million times before.
3.) People will see what they want to see and that goes for both sides of the argument.

Rather than watch this devolve into a travesty, I'm stepping out after this post, but just know you were given a heads up.

This will get worse. Good luck though.
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby Rodimus Prime » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:12 am

Motto: "Individual freedom above all else."
Autobot032 wrote:*sighs* Not one of these threads....

1.) It won't end well.
2.) It's been said a million times before.
3.) People will see what they want to see and that goes for both sides of the argument.

Rather than watch this devolve into a travesty, I'm stepping out after this post, but just know you were given a heads up.

This will get worse. Good luck though.


...and you contributed absolutely nothing.
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby DoctorZero986 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:37 pm

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Yeah, I'm tired of the G-Whiners. I've been tired of them for a while. Sadly, as one person said, the only way to truly deal with them is to create some pocket universe of the year 1984 and send all of them there so that they can relive their precious childhoods forever and the rest of the TF fanbase will never have to hear them ever again. Unfortunately, we can't do that so we'll just have to live with them... for now.
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby skidflap » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:28 pm

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Dude, i'm down, i hope it tells the story alla X-men First class, it shows how everyone became who they are. if they follow foundation that would be sweet.

if they do just that... :michaelbay: :michaelbay: :michaelbay:
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Re: Ok, ok, get a grip.

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:04 pm

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Evil_the_Nub wrote:I'm sick of the whining too. It's been going on for 5 years and most of it is crap. "Optimus has flames so I'm going to make death threats on Michael Bay." "Ironhide isn't red so the movies suck just because of that." I've heard less whining from fat kids on a diet.


Nub, i love you like a fat kid loves cake!! :P Haha
But on the real, one can only wonder why Bay & co. would even want to listen to any fan requests after death threats and such immature behavior. Certinaly makes other directors question wether or not they'd want to be invloved in future prodjects.

Oh well. I'm just going to enjoy the ride like i have for the last 5yrs.
Decepticons... Com in get yo ice cream!.... And then get yo ass whop'in!!

Suck my popsicle!! :p

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