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gothsaurus wrote:I think Takara is much less inclined to put out bots with just a head swap... especially Masterpiece.

Yeah, I agreed with you in my last sentence above. (???)

I think my real point about Grapple/Inferno is that because it would be a much larger figure, that it's an unlikely choice at the beginning of the line. Less popular characters... and larger price point. I'm guessing they'll put that one off a while, if they do it.

gothsaurus wrote:

gothsaurus wrote:I think Takara is much less inclined to put out bots with just a head swap... especially Masterpiece.

Yeah, I agreed with you in my last sentence above. (???)

Admittedly I should have said "with your previous post" but that's the ambiguity which comes from responding at 2am .

gothsaurus wrote:I think my real point about Grapple/Inferno is that because it would be a much larger figure, that it's an unlikely choice at the beginning of the line. Less popular characters... and larger price point. I'm guessing they'll put that one off a while, if they do it.

Except that Takara has proven otherwise not only with reissues, but with this current version of the Masterpiece line. With the "book-style" reissues, the third reissue was Skids. Then look at MP-14. The fact is that the initial reissue of Sideswipe and Red Alert in Japan saw a more limited distribution than Red Alert.

Then you have a prominent character like Trailbreaker which not only had a much later reissue release than Inferno, but has yet to even have a proper iteration in the CHUG line.

However talking about popularity here is really a case of splitting hairs. The fact is that we're currently discussing 84/85 Autobot Cars, not the likes of Crossblades or Stranglehold. Sure Inferno or Grapple might not have online shrines dedicated to them, but it's a pretty safe bet that people buying MP figures will buy an entire run of Autobot Cars if they get the chance to.

Ultimately this comes down to splitting hairs and in a way reminds me of the textbook reaction of someone who has been burned so many times that when something legitimate happens, they're still skeptical, even when it keeps consistently happening.

The only 2 variables here are how well eHobby does with Tigertrack (which will determine the viability of MP versions of eHobby exclusives and therefore the profitability of some molds) and licensing issues.

Other than that, this is a complete gravy train for Takara, a dream for fans which keeps unfolding, and a torture beyond imagination for our wallets .

Bowspearer wrote:The fact is that people will pay upwards of $200 for ultimate versions of their G1 favorites - in fact they are doing it and preorders are selling out shortly after they're announced on many Asian e-tailers.

If the line keeps going this well, then combiner teams are an eventuality.

Combiner teams will not happen unless you lower the price. WOuld you pay A THOUSAND DOLLARS for a combiner set? With the economy the way it is worldwide, it won't happen. Honestly though, this is a niche market. Takara knows exactly how many to make. They won't have shelfwarmers. This is a collectors' targeted market. Essentially each figure is a limited edition. Besides, why make Masterpiece versions of figures that third party companies are making already, anyways? Just cuts into your profits. I'm calling it right now. Jazz will be the next figure, then Stepper. Because honestly, one can make a very respectable and accurate Jazz from the Prowl mold without doing much to it. Low cost to produce, high profit because collectors pay through the nose...as such it is zero risk for the company. However, once that safety net disappears as they run out of characters to repaint/retool with low cost, that's when the line will end. It's just business.

First-Aid wrote:

Bowspearer wrote:The fact is that people will pay upwards of $200 for ultimate versions of their G1 favorites - in fact they are doing it and preorders are selling out shortly after they're announced on many Asian e-tailers.

If the line keeps going this well, then combiner teams are an eventuality.

Combiner teams will not happen unless you lower the price. WOuld you pay A THOUSAND DOLLARS for a combiner set?

Yes. For a MP combiner set- in a heartbeat.

First-Aid wrote:With the economy the way it is worldwide, it won't happen.

And yet this is the same argument which would say that in this market, people wont pay close to $100 for an Autobot Car when they can get the Henkei version for $30-40. The fact that MP figures are consistently selling out on preorder says otherwise.

First-Aid wrote:Honestly though, this is a niche market.

Not in Japan it isn't. In fact the majority of the Japanese market is more adult fans than kids and parents. In fact it's the reason why when you look at both markets they tend to take radically different approaches.

First-Aid wrote:Takara knows exactly how many to make.

As does any toy company when making a line. They base things on market research, sales figures and store orders, no matter the nature of the line.

First-Aid wrote:They won't have shelfwarmers.

And neither does Hasbro. Their warehouses clear out of stock and go to the retailers based on retail orders, right down to the retailers determining case assortments.

First-Aid wrote:This is a collectors' targeted market.

We're talking about the Japanese toy market here, so wrong - dead wrong.

First-Aid wrote:Essentially each figure is a limited edition.

On the contrary, there's nothing "limited edition" about the Masterpiece line. In fact with the exception of Lucky Draw figures, the last time Hasbro went down the "limitied edition" road was with the first round of reissues and it game back to bite them when they did the Encore line.

First-Aid wrote:Besides, why make Masterpiece versions of figures that third party companies are making already, anyways? Just cuts into your profits.

A) By that logic, Encore 20 should never have existed. Yet it did so well that we got a variant reissue of a reissue. B) The logic of that statement is absurd. It's like saying that if someone steals your ideas and passes them off as their own that you would have absolutely no interest in going toe to toe with them if you couldn't sue them (in fact the only thing saving many third party companies from litigation is the terrible IP property rights legal situation in China). After all, that's precisely what third party companies who produce bootlegs of G1 characters without paying for licensing are - thieves. Of course Takara is going to want its fair market share for its iconic designs.

First-Aid wrote:I'm calling it right now. Jazz will be the next figure, then Stepper.

Considering that the mold reuses of Jazz, there are a good 2 or 3 others that will hit first before it. It'll definitely hit, but either Ratchet/Ironhide or Grapple/Inferno/Artfire are far more likely to hit first, as well as possibly Skids (depends on how viable eHobby runs are compared to main line runs for Takara). The only wild card besides licensing now, is how well Tigertrack sells, which in turn will determine eHobby's stake in this and the comparitive viability of certain molds.

First-Aid wrote:Because honestly, one can make a very respectable and accurate Jazz from the Prowl mold without doing much to it.

Except completely re-engineering the mechanics of the chest, waist, feet, as well as the external looks of the character. That's essentially rebuilding it from the ground up. Honestly, I wonder when people make comments like this if they even own the G1 versions of the toys being discussed or actually get the point of the Masterpiece line.

First-Aid wrote:Low cost to produce, high profit because collectors pay through the nose...as such it is zero risk for the company.

And yet Takara learned what happened when they tried the "zero risk" approach before with the Masterpiece line. It prompted a mid-line reboot to what we have now. This sort of thinking is Hasbro thinking and it's the reason why Hasbro never produce original Masterpieces themselves

Heck if it came down to "risk" (adult collector's market) adverse thinking, we'd never have had Binartech, Alternity or the Masterpiece line period.

First-Aid wrote:However, once that safety net disappears as they run out of characters to repaint/retool with low cost, that's when the line will end.

Which is a baseless assertion. The fact is that once the line does well enough, then the line itself becomes its own safety net. Are you seriously suggesting that Takara wont make combiner sets for the Masterpiece line if the market is there for them?

First-Aid wrote:It's just business.

No it's "playing it safe". All groundbreaking successful business ventures have involved risk. Calculated risk, certainly, but risk nonetheless. Takara have proven that they understand this and that is precisely why they are currently reaping the benefits with the current Masterpiece line in spades.

One other thing if. If you consult the style guide on say, the Constructicons, they come in at about the height of Ratchet and Ironhide. As such, there's no way you'd pay remotely close to $1000+ for even Devastator, let alone the other combiner teams.

I don't think they're going to jump to break the new scale they've established. I think they'll stick with cars for a while. Any larger vehicle — including combat, construction, or rescue — would be either twice as large as these (and very expensive) or terribly out of scale with the cars.

If they're going to jump up in size class to something massive, you guys KNOW they'll opt to do a new leader instead. Shockwave, Megatron Redux, Galvatron.

And I'd also add, these are years in the works designing and testing these masterpiece figures... NOT just an arbitrary choice to reuse some old mold from the 1970s as a reissue when it comes up available at the warehouse. They put a lot of thought and money into these, and I think the order will reflect the characters popularity and other factors.

I don't think we'll be seeing any "surprise" guests. (Sorry Pipes, Bantor, Skybyte...)

I also don't think we'll be seeing any masterpiece combiners. Just my opinion and an educated guess. Not complaining though. I'd rather have a masterpiece of the first season characters I love — with all the care, detail, and accessories — and then leave it to the 3rd parties to do some passable combiners.

I actually completely disagree with what you've said re combiners, and I'd suggest that you and everyone else arguing that they couldn't happen in this scale, actually look at the G1 scale guide. The Constructicons actually come in at around the same height as the larger of the Autobot Cars (Ratchet, Ironhide, Grapple, Inferno, Hoist and Trailbreaker), making them no more non-viable than any of the 84/85 Autobot Cars.

What people seem to forget is that the combiners themselves were dramatically out of scale with their components. Now a combiner set where the combined form was in line with the scale guide is something which I agree would be financially ununfeasible. However a combiner team where it was the team members themselves in line with the scale guide would be a different story and would be likely what we wound up getting - which I would be completely ok with. In fact going by the going rate of $80 for the MP Autobot Cars, I'd wager that if the Constructicons did come out, they should each be around that same ball park ($480 for the set in other words) - and that's at import prices at places like BBTS, as opposed to Asian retailers where preorder prices were around the $57 mark.

However I think you're spot on about the fact that for at least the next couple of years it'll be the Autobot Cars getting the MP treatment.

The thing is that for the designers, there's a definite logic to the order of things. It's one thing to try and get a single use sculpt approved by the TakaraTomy bean counters. It's another thing entirely to start with the sculpt that has the most reuses, then slowly work your way down to single use molds.

The thing is that if the bean counters see that single use molds are viable for them and that people will constantly shell out the cash for the line, then combiners will get approved.

However, if I had to hazard a guess as to when we'd see the first Masterpiece combiners, I'd put it at a good 4-5 years from now.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I'd jump at some show-accurate and to-scale combiners. I just see that as further down the road if it comes.

Besides the Constructicons, the sad fact is that they got very little character development outside of grunts or "retreat!" in the cartoons and comics. That may make it tough for the general fan base to bite, when compared with a Grimlock or Starscream. Maybe if they start working them in later in the line, people will already be addicted/completionists to the line.

But on the positive side, you do have some solid repaint potential for most all the combiners. G2 or SG anyone?

Oh they'll come. I'm open enough to admit my addiction to the Masterpiece line and if everyone else on this forum is honest with themselves, then I suspect that half the forum or more would have to admit they're hooked to the Ver2.0 MP line. Considering that, the design team are hardly going to pass up the chance to make them the moment the bean counters give the green light to them.

The one thing I think you're forgetting is that the same market that is being targeted by the Masterpiece line, is the same market that got a Bruticus reissue before it got a Devastator.

Clearly cartoon character development is hardly a dealbreaker .

That said, I'll be surprised if, besides the exceptions of Artfire and Stepper, the line goes beyond the 1986 toyline in terms of reducia. Still stranger things have happened I guess...

I personally can't see them doing combiner sets. I imagine that the figures would come out one at a time. A set would be too expensive for most people to invest in all at once, even if it sold for $480. Using the constructicons for reference, each figure has it's own mould so there would be a lot of tooling costs. I could see each constructicon going for $120 and up.