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MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:03 am

Stormrider wrote:You also mention MP11TC, but that numbering doesn't exist. Takara never remade Thundercracker, but I am guessing that you mean Hasbro MP Thundercracker (which was their first release of the character).


Actually while they didn't remake him perse, from memory, he was released as a TRU exclusive in Japan as a direct Hasbro import - similar to what happened with the Classics 2.0 Ultras.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Cyber Bishop » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:21 am

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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby TimothyR » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:28 am

Stormrider wrote:
Arctorro wrote:
Stormrider wrote:Don't forget MP06 Skywarp and MP07 Thundercracker. They are in scale with MP11 Starscream. And if you want to get pickier, you can include Sunstorm, Tigertracks, and Black Convoy.
I didn't forget them, I ignored them. I'm talking about G1 show characters represented by the "2.0" MPs that have been released since MP-10. MPs 06 & 07 don't fall under the 2.0 banner. Technically Sunstorm does, but I couldn't care less about him :P



Since 2.0 MP is a loosely coined fan termed and the criteria of what falls under the "2.0" banner is inconsistent - saying that any MP released prior to MP10 is 1.0 is silly.

Just because Convoy was redone to fit in scale with the other masterpieces, doesn't make the other masterpieces prior to MP10 illegitimate. In my view, the Seekers are all in the same scale as MP11 Starscream. MP Rodimus works (though Hot Rod does not).

It's like the fan coined phrase "Generations 2.0" and "Generations 3.0". Generations Optimus Prime may have been one of the first figures from the line but it doesn't mean he should be ignored when standing next to Generations Hoist.


i agree with you.

plus.. the only two figures that aren't really close in scale with all of the MP's are the original prime mold and megatron.. the rest of them are roughly in scale to each other. so to discount anything before MP10 is just silly. there is no MP "2.0".
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:39 am

Stormrider wrote:Since 2.0 MP is a loosely coined fan termed and the criteria of what falls under the "2.0" banner is inconsistent - saying that any MP released prior to MP10 is 1.0 is silly.

Just because Convoy was redone to fit in scale with the other masterpieces, doesn't make the other masterpieces prior to MP10 illegitimate. In my view, the Seekers are all in the same scale as MP11 Starscream. MP Rodimus works (though Hot Rod does not).


On the contrary, everything coined under the 2.0 moniker is done under a different design paradigm than the originals; everything past MP-10 is done to be cartoon accurate from the scale down to the redo and engineering. Magnus, Prime Megatron are all out of scale (which alone wipes out MP-01, MP-02, MP-04 and MP-05) and Starscream, Thundercracker and Skywarp are inaccurate in terms of deco (wiping out MP-03, MP-06 and MP-07). Grimlock and Rodimus work, but they're more a happy accident than anything, and Hot Rod doesn't quite work in scale with Optimus whilst Rodimus does.

The fact is that Henkei/United and Classics 2.0/Universe 2.0/Generations/Reveal the Shield are both situations where the name changed but the line remained constant; in the case of the Masterpiece line, the line changed, but the name remained constant.

Stormrider wrote:It's like the fan coined phrase "Generations 2.0" and "Generations 3.0". Generations Optimus Prime may have been one of the first figures from the line but it doesn't mean he should be ignored when standing next to Generations Hoist.


Here's where you well and truly shoot your own argument down in flames. By bringing up "Classics 2.0" in this argument, you've just made a claim equivalent to claiming that there is no difference between the Encore and Henkei lines - or need I remind you that the original Classics line were entirely a line of reissues back in the 90s.

TimothyR wrote:i agree with you.

Then first off, as an aside, you might want to familiarise yourself with the first line of reissues done, specifically the name of it.

TimothyR wrote:plus.. the only two figures that aren't really close in scale with all of the MP's are the original prime mold and megatron.. the rest of them are roughly in scale to each other. so to discount anything before MP10 is just silly. there is no MP "2.0".


Except that it's not just about scale; everything from MP-10 onwards is cartoon accurate. With one or two exceptions, the others of the line weren't and those that were, were happy accidents. Everything from MP-10 onwards however has been deliberately designed with that paradigm in mind.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby mooncake623 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:49 am

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lol these arguments are so silly. I came here hoping for news and leaked info!

I hope MP Wheeljack comes with cartoon accurate shoulder cannons instead of toy accurate ones.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:41 am

mooncake623 wrote:lol these arguments are so silly. I came here hoping for news and leaked info!


I know what you mean. At the end of the day, it's like some people hare having a tissy over a line being rebooted midway through. I just had to say something when I heard someone trying to make the ridiculous claim that the original Classics line of reissues was the same as CHUG. That was just head-desk worthy.

mooncake623 wrote:I hope MP Wheeljack comes with cartoon accurate shoulder cannons instead of toy accurate ones.


Given that as of MP-10, the MP line are cartoon accurate, that would be a given.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby TimothyR » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:28 pm

Bowspearer wrote:Except that it's not just about scale; everything from MP-10 onwards is cartoon accurate. With one or two exceptions, the others of the line weren't and those that were, were happy accidents. Everything from MP-10 onwards however has been deliberately designed with that paradigm in mind.


i always thought that all of the MP's were designed with toon accuracy in mind. grimlock and hot rod definitely were.

hell, i think hot rod is more accurate that mp10 is.

i think the initial starscream mold is the only figure that you could really make a case for.. especially with his original colors. i think at that point they were trying to make a G1 looking real life jet (if that makes sense)

you could say MP05.. but, at that point in time, i don't think they thought outside the box enough to make a better looking robot. hopefully they'll give it another try.

but MP01 definitely seems like they were going for toon accuracy. to me, MP01's chest looks more accurate than 10's.

but anyways. i think we'll start seeing some teaser photos of wheeljack or bumblebee once prowl's released.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:02 am

TimothyR wrote:
Bowspearer wrote:Except that it's not just about scale; everything from MP-10 onwards is cartoon accurate. With one or two exceptions, the others of the line weren't and those that were, were happy accidents. Everything from MP-10 onwards however has been deliberately designed with that paradigm in mind.


i always thought that all of the MP's were designed with toon accuracy in mind. grimlock and hot rod definitely were.

hell, i think hot rod is more accurate that mp10 is.

i think the initial starscream mold is the only figure that you could really make a case for.. especially with his original colors. i think at that point they were trying to make a G1 looking real life jet (if that makes sense)

you could say MP05.. but, at that point in time, i don't think they thought outside the box enough to make a better looking robot. hopefully they'll give it another try.

but MP01 definitely seems like they were going for toon accuracy. to me, MP01's chest looks more accurate than 10's.


I'd agree that from Grimlock onwards, it was definitely heading that way, however it wasn't until MP-10 that the reboot was official - where he's deliberately in scale with everything beyond MP-10 and where there's a definite move to Cartoon accuracy.

You're way off base with everything else. Prime and Magnus were designed to be in scale with and compatible with the BT line - if you don't believe me, check out MP-04's box art, which clearly shows the interaction between it and BT Meister (? iirc). Furthermore the Jets weren't even in scale with Prime and Magnus, neither was Megatron. There are countless pics out there showing size differences if you want to dispute that.

Edit: found the following image with Tracks and Ginrai to show MP-01/02/04 in scale with the BT line:

Image
Last edited by Bowspearer on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Dean ML » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:41 am

TimothyR wrote:
Bowspearer wrote:Except that it's not just about scale; everything from MP-10 onwards is cartoon accurate. With one or two exceptions, the others of the line weren't and those that were, were happy accidents. Everything from MP-10 onwards however has been deliberately designed with that paradigm in mind.


i always thought that all of the MP's were designed with toon accuracy in mind. grimlock and hot rod definitely were.

hell, i think hot rod is more accurate that mp10 is.

i think the initial starscream mold is the only figure that you could really make a case for.. especially with his original colors. i think at that point they were trying to make a G1 looking real life jet (if that makes sense)

you could say MP05.. but, at that point in time, i don't think they thought outside the box enough to make a better looking robot. hopefully they'll give it another try.

but MP01 definitely seems like they were going for toon accuracy. to me, MP01's chest looks more accurate than 10's.

but anyways. i think we'll start seeing some teaser photos of wheeljack or bumblebee once prowl's released.


The main appeal of the MP line for me is its goal of G1 toon accuracy. Those designs are iconic for me and millions of other guys who grew up on the show. That said, the biggest missteps of the line since Grimlock are Red Alert's red thighs and not starting from the ground up with a new Seeker mold. The Seeker mold looks and feels so different from the rest of the current MPs.

It will be really interesting to see what they do with BB. Accurate VW representation or super deformed? I kind of hope deformed. They'll have the same dilema when they get to the other minibots, like Cliffjumper and Windcharger. On the other hand, Brawn, Huffer, and Gears were generic enough vehicles that the designers won't be beholden to creating any kind of an accurate model of a real life vehicle. I loved the concept art for Huffer that was designed to go along with MP-10 and hope we get to see him sooner than later.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Hammer » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:54 am

New MP's please.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby vectorA3 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:52 am

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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby njb902 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:59 pm

I'm worried about how short bumblebee and the like are going to be.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby RAcast » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:13 pm

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njb902 wrote:I'm worried about how short bumblebee and the like are going to be.

Welp, they're going to be in-scale. So exactly as tall as they should be. ;)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scale#Official_scale_guides

That means Bee will come up to Prime's mid-thigh, and Wheeljack will be about the same height as every Autobot car.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Dean ML » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:35 pm

RAcast wrote:
njb902 wrote:I'm worried about how short bumblebee and the like are going to be.

Welp, they're going to be in-scale. So exactly as tall as they should be. ;)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scale#Official_scale_guides

That means Bee will come up to Prime's mid-thigh, and Wheeljack will be about the same height as every Autobot car.


That's the thing. Will his car be in scale or will bot mode be in scale? The old VW Bug wasn't that small and had a longer hood. BB's G1 alt mode was superdeformed because he was originally from the Microman line and was supposed to be a toy car pennyracer. I'm hoping that they go deformed for G1 accuracy over slavishly reproducing the actual VW Bug. It just wouldn't look right if he was the same size and bulk as the rest of the MP cars. Look at MP 10. His truck mode is not based on an exact real world model and all for the better.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby RAcast » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:40 pm

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Dean ML wrote:
RAcast wrote:
njb902 wrote:I'm worried about how short bumblebee and the like are going to be.

Welp, they're going to be in-scale. So exactly as tall as they should be. ;)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scale#Official_scale_guides

That means Bee will come up to Prime's mid-thigh, and Wheeljack will be about the same height as every Autobot car.


That's the thing. Will his car be in scale or will bot mode be in scale? The old VW Bug wasn't that small and had a longer hood. BB's G1 alt mode was superdeformed because he was originally from the Microman line and was supposed to be a toy car pennyracer. I'm hoping that they go deformed for G1 accuracy over slavishly reproducing the actual VW Bug. It just wouldn't look right if he was the same size and bulk as the rest of the MP cars. Look at MP 10. His truck mode is not based on an exact real world model and all for the better.

Robot will all be in scale, as per the scale chart, that was the entire point of my post (and the entire point of the current MP line). ;) And the line is all about cartoon accuracy, so you can bet that it'll be...wait for it.
Cartoon accurate.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby TimothyR » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:52 pm

Bowspearer wrote:
TimothyR wrote:
Bowspearer wrote:Except that it's not just about scale; everything from MP-10 onwards is cartoon accurate. With one or two exceptions, the others of the line weren't and those that were, were happy accidents. Everything from MP-10 onwards however has been deliberately designed with that paradigm in mind.


i always thought that all of the MP's were designed with toon accuracy in mind. grimlock and hot rod definitely were.

hell, i think hot rod is more accurate that mp10 is.

i think the initial starscream mold is the only figure that you could really make a case for.. especially with his original colors. i think at that point they were trying to make a G1 looking real life jet (if that makes sense)

you could say MP05.. but, at that point in time, i don't think they thought outside the box enough to make a better looking robot. hopefully they'll give it another try.

but MP01 definitely seems like they were going for toon accuracy. to me, MP01's chest looks more accurate than 10's.


I'd agree that from Grimlock onwards, it was definitely heading that way, however it wasn't until MP-10 that the reboot was official - where he's deliberately in scale with everything beyond MP-10 and where there's a definite move to Cartoon accuracy.

You're way off base with everything else. Prime and Magnus were designed to be in scale with and compatible with the BT line - if you don't believe me, check out MP-04's box art, which clearly shows the interaction between it and BT Meister (? iirc). Furthermore the Jets weren't even in scale with Prime and Magnus, neither was Megatron. There are countless pics out there showing size differences if you want to dispute that.

Edit: found the following image with Tracks and Ginrai to show MP-01/02/04 in scale with the BT line:

Image


way off base?

just because binaltechs could fit in his trailer does not mean that prime was made for that line.. otherwise he wouldn't have been called a masterpiece and packaged completely differently.

and you say check out MP04's trailer.. well, there you go.. MP04.. not even MP01, the line had already started.

megatron and prime's molds were bigger because they were the two main characters in transformers.

MP10 is definitely not the beginning of "2.0" .. i don't see how you don't see that.

i believe takara began with MP01.. then they figured okay, that went well.. let's try more characters. and once they realized that people would rather have more in scale figures.. they gave us a second prime which would fit the scale that they had started with starscream.

if mp10 was the beginning of "2.0" .. then how do you explain the heights of starscream, grimlock, and hot rod?


RAcast wrote:
Dean ML wrote:
RAcast wrote:
njb902 wrote:I'm worried about how short bumblebee and the like are going to be.

Welp, they're going to be in-scale. So exactly as tall as they should be. ;)
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scale#Official_scale_guides

That means Bee will come up to Prime's mid-thigh, and Wheeljack will be about the same height as every Autobot car.


That's the thing. Will his car be in scale or will bot mode be in scale? The old VW Bug wasn't that small and had a longer hood. BB's G1 alt mode was superdeformed because he was originally from the Microman line and was supposed to be a toy car pennyracer. I'm hoping that they go deformed for G1 accuracy over slavishly reproducing the actual VW Bug. It just wouldn't look right if he was the same size and bulk as the rest of the MP cars. Look at MP 10. His truck mode is not based on an exact real world model and all for the better.

Robot will all be in scale, as per the scale chart, that was the entire point of my post (and the entire point of the current MP line). ;) And the line is all about cartoon accuracy, so you can bet that it'll be...wait for it.
Cartoon accurate.


you never know.. takara could surprise us and make both accurate. but personally.. i'd prefer the robot mode be accurate. and i agree with you, i doubt they'd make his alt mode accurate. his cartoon model was smaller than a VW bug too. so.. i think they'd go with cartoon accuracy rather than real world car accuracy. and that's a great point about prime. they could easily go the same route with bumblebee.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:38 am

TimothyR wrote:
Bowspearer wrote:
TimothyR wrote:
Bowspearer wrote:Except that it's not just about scale; everything from MP-10 onwards is cartoon accurate. With one or two exceptions, the others of the line weren't and those that were, were happy accidents. Everything from MP-10 onwards however has been deliberately designed with that paradigm in mind.


i always thought that all of the MP's were designed with toon accuracy in mind. grimlock and hot rod definitely were.

hell, i think hot rod is more accurate that mp10 is.

i think the initial starscream mold is the only figure that you could really make a case for.. especially with his original colors. i think at that point they were trying to make a G1 looking real life jet (if that makes sense)

you could say MP05.. but, at that point in time, i don't think they thought outside the box enough to make a better looking robot. hopefully they'll give it another try.

but MP01 definitely seems like they were going for toon accuracy. to me, MP01's chest looks more accurate than 10's.


I'd agree that from Grimlock onwards, it was definitely heading that way, however it wasn't until MP-10 that the reboot was official - where he's deliberately in scale with everything beyond MP-10 and where there's a definite move to Cartoon accuracy.

You're way off base with everything else. Prime and Magnus were designed to be in scale with and compatible with the BT line - if you don't believe me, check out MP-04's box art, which clearly shows the interaction between it and BT Meister (? iirc). Furthermore the Jets weren't even in scale with Prime and Magnus, neither was Megatron. There are countless pics out there showing size differences if you want to dispute that.

Edit: found the following image with Tracks and Ginrai to show MP-01/02/04 in scale with the BT line:

Image


way off base?

just because binaltechs could fit in his trailer does not mean that prime was made for that line.. otherwise he wouldn't have been called a masterpiece and packaged completely differently.

and you say check out MP04's trailer.. well, there you go.. MP04.. not even MP01, the line had already started.

megatron and prime's molds were bigger because they were the two main characters in transformers.

MP10 is definitely not the beginning of "2.0" .. i don't see how you don't see that.

i believe takara began with MP01.. then they figured okay, that went well.. let's try more characters. and once they realized that people would rather have more in scale figures.. they gave us a second prime which would fit the scale that they had started with starscream.

if mp10 was the beginning of "2.0" .. then how do you explain the heights of starscream, grimlock, and hot rod?


It turns out that in addition to being way off base, your entire argument can't even maintain its own logical consitency.

As Hasbro releases are essentially irrelevant to the development of the Masterpiece line, I'm going to focus entirely on the Takara/Takara-Tomy releases.

First off, at best, you could claim that the original Masterpiece Convoy was based around how the original toy would have been made were it made by today's standards.

However that argument completely falls apart when you get to the next Masterpiece figure- Ultra Magnus. Magnus was designed around his Dreamwave comics appearance in G1, Vol 2, issue 6. That is a statement of fact as the booklet he comes with proves this in spades.

Then you have Starscream at MP-03. Starscream's design, though an F-15, is completely cartoon inaccurate and actually defaults back to the design acumen I brought up with MP-01. The figure is coloured to be accurate to the standard colours of an F-15 in jet mode, is completely out of scale with Prime, and has side skirts far more in line with modern Japanese mecha design than either the original toy or the animation sheets it was based on. Furthermore even if you forget about the design being completely cartoon inaccurate, MP-03 is completely out of scale with MP-01. In fact the only similarity the figure originally had with MP-01 was the price point at retail.

Then you Have MP-04. The fact is that the trailer released with this version of Convoy was intentionally designed to work with Binartech figures (as an aside, I have yet to see a credible explanation as to why it's Binaltech as opposed to Binartech as the typical Japanese marketing convention with names is to amalgamate 2 English words as opposed to 3 which is what would be required with Binaltech) rather than it being coincidental. This was proven by the official promo pics which showed up on fan2fan at the time when it went up for preordering.

Then there is MP-05, which again was based around MP-01's design acumen, and much like MP-01, MP-02 and MP-04, is completely out of scale with MP-03. In fact at this point, it was MP-03 that was the exception rather than the rule.

Then you cave MP-06 and MP-07. Both are not only in more toy accurate colours, but again the jet paint schemes are far more consistent with how a custom painted F-15 would look than cartoon accuracy- as indicated by the colours of the back air vents. As with MP-03 the figures have completely cartoon inaccurate, mecha style side skirts.

At this point, the line has had nothing whatsoever to do with producing a toy line which is entirely based around producing a line that is consistently cartoon accurate. You might try and argue about Convoy's axe and Matrix and Megatron's mace, however the Takara Transformers Collection reissues already retconned the G1 toys to include these as accessories.

Then you get to MP-08 and MP-09. Certainly in the Case of Grimlock, you could argue that cartoon accuracy was driving him. Not only were his weapons actually stripped down to those he had in the cartoon, but his accessories (with the exception of MP-08X which was intended to be comic accurate) were entirely carton accurate and gased around his appearances in "Madman's Paradise" and "Grimlock's New Brain". The same could be said for Rodimus, although issues with his Matrix make that claim slightly shaky. However even if you ignore the Matrix issues, you still have a situation where MP-08 and MP-09 are exceptions in the line rather than the rule at this point. To be fair though, by MP-09, I have no doubt that a design paradigm shift was already planned, though unofficial.

MP-10 however does mark a shift into a Masterpiece 2.0 line, by virtue of being the first figure given a version 2.0 release. This was quickly followed up with a version 2.0 release of MP-03 in the form of MP-11. From this point, cartoon accuracy changed from being isolated to individual figures to being consistent in the entire line.

Did MP-03 have an influence on where the 2.0 line went in terms of the size and price point of figures? Given that the MP-03 body was merely significantly retooled (including retooled legs, torso and head - in other words, everything but the cockpit and arms) rather than an entirely different figure being produced, the answer would be definitely. However the only contributions it has arguably made were in terms of those of a size:price point ratio. However your assertion that somehow MP-03 was the norm, when the fact is that it had to be radically re-engineered to fit with the "Masterpiece 2.0" in the form of MP-11, is both completely baseless and outright wrong.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Dead Metal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:05 am

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Adding to all that, The toy designer of MP 10 stated in an interview that MP 10 was the start of a revamped Masterpiece line. And that it marked the new direction of the line. A direction that is entirely based on the cartoon, by scaling each figure so that their robot modes are in scale with each other the way they would be in the cartoon. And that MP 10 would be the "default" scale guide.

So all future MPs will be in robot-mode scale with MP 10 Optimus Prime.


The original intent of the MP line was to be the best representation of the fictional character, which was thrown out of the window with MP 2. It was also not mean to be a way of updating the toys to more modern standards (Don Figuera's original MP Optimus concept was very toy accurate and was not used.

All the changed done to the original MP Starscream was to make it fit in more with stuff like Macross which at the time (maybe still today) was more popular than Transformers, so it was reworked to appeal to those who collected that kind of Mecha as opposed to TF fans.


Since MP 10 however the line actually has a mission statement, which is to be as close to the cartoon as possible with scale on top. There is no arguing about this, MP 9 fits into the new MP philosophy in Rodimus Prime mode, since the Hot Rod mode is too small.
Grimlock is also too small, since in the toon he's about one or two heads taller than Prime, but the toy is a head shorter than Prime.

There is no arguing this matter due to statements by Takara and its designers. Just be glad that Takara is finally taking this line serious.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:54 am

Dead Metal wrote:The original intent of the MP line was to be the best representation of the fictional character, which was thrown out of the window with MP 2. It was also not mean to be a way of updating the toys to more modern standards (Don Figuera's original MP Optimus concept was very toy accurate and was not used.


Actually I'd argue this point is slightly oxymoronic. The fact is that the original Transformers designs were far more based around the notions of late 70s/early 80s style convertable mecha. The original design brief for most Transformers during the pre-Transformers era, was for it to be based around plausible convertible mecha designs with the exception of anything from the Microchange line - even then were excheptions to that exception, such as Micro Scope (aka Perceptor) and the Cassette Machines.

Certainly there needed to be an aesthetically pleasing robot mode at the end, but the primary focus of the design, particularly with the Diaclone line, was having a realistic disguise mode (which fit a 1/72 scale figure in the case of most Diaclone toys) and which ideally converted allowing said figure to still pilot the vehicle in robot mode or appear to be doing so (in fact the Triple Changers, Jumpstarters and the Datsuns [as well as possibly the Porsche 935 in Robot mode] are the only exceptions to this).


Of course, this resulted in a disconnect when Marvel began translating those mecha designs to living alien robots. Those fictional characters began taking on a life of their own and the premise of the toy line changer from toy-accurate plausible piloted mecha, to alien robots in line with Marvel's original design - to the point where a case could be made for all of the early stuff being fairly inaccurate representations of characters, and therefore a bit of a miss as far as the toys themselves go (granted, through no fault of their own).

In fact it's why you see such a marked design paradigm shift by 1987 from the 1984 line (with only relics from the Pre-tf era still present in the line being Ultra Magnus, Metroplex and the 1986 Combiner Teams).

Therefore, when you get to the Masterpiece line, what you actually find is that when you are producing the best possible version of a fictional character, you are in fact updating the toy to today's standards, as the design brief for Transformers was and still is radically different to that of Diaclone et al.

It's a minor sticking point I realise, but one worth drawing a distinction on.

Dead Metal wrote:Grimlock is also too small, since in the toon he's about one or two heads taller than Prime, but the toy is a head shorter than Prime.


I hadn't actually realised that. Good to know - now I'm spared dealing with secondary market prices to track one down.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Dead Metal » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:43 am

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Bowspearer wrote:Actually I'd argue this point is slightly oxymoronic. The fact is that the original Transformers designs were far more based around the notions of late 70s/early 80s style convertable mecha. The original design brief for most Transformers during the pre-Transformers era, was for it to be based around plausible convertible mecha designs with the exception of anything from the Microchange line - even then were excheptions to that exception, such as Micro Scope (aka Perceptor) and the Cassette Machines.

Certainly there needed to be an aesthetically pleasing robot mode at the end, but the primary focus of the design, particularly with the Diaclone line, was having a realistic disguise mode (which fit a 1/72 scale figure in the case of most Diaclone toys) and which ideally converted allowing said figure to still pilot the vehicle in robot mode or appear to be doing so (in fact the Triple Changers, Jumpstarters and the Datsuns [as well as possibly the Porsche 935 in Robot mode] are the only exceptions to this).


Of course, this resulted in a disconnect when Marvel began translating those mecha designs to living alien robots. Those fictional characters began taking on a life of their own and the premise of the toy line changer from toy-accurate plausible piloted mecha, to alien robots in line with Marvel's original design - to the point where a case could be made for all of the early stuff being fairly inaccurate representations of characters, and therefore a bit of a miss as far as the toys themselves go (granted, through no fault of their own).

In fact it's why you see such a marked design paradigm shift by 1987 from the 1984 line (with only relics from the Pre-tf era still present in the line being Ultra Magnus, Metroplex and the 1986 Combiner Teams).

Therefore, when you get to the Masterpiece line, what you actually find is that when you are producing the best possible version of a fictional character, you are in fact updating the toy to today's standards, as the design brief for Transformers was and still is radically different to that of Diaclone et al.

It's a minor sticking point I realise, but one worth drawing a distinction on.

I know, and that is the whole point. The MP line is here to make toys based on the fictional characters and their designs, which is obvious if you look at Optimus, if they where updates tot he original toys, they would look much more like those, just done by today's standards and quality, they would likely not look like the cartoon characters. But feature the exact same transformation as the original toys, they would basically be the same, just feature more joints, be larger and maybe even look better in alt-mode, but they would still work the same and look pretty much the same in bot-mode.

Actually, the only Masterpiece that would actually qualify as an update to the original toy is Grimlock, as he features all the same mechanisms in his transformation that the original has, plus a few extra, he even has the same clear neck with chrome gears in dino-mode and driver compartment. Adding to that, the detailing on him (the sculpted ones) look more like his original toy than it does the cartoon. But with added stuff to please the cartoon guys (kind alike a compromise).
Dead Metal wrote:Grimlock is also too small, since in the toon he's about one or two heads taller than Prime, but the toy is a head shorter than Prime.


I hadn't actually realised that. Good to know - now I'm spared dealing with secondary market prices to track one down.

Learn something new every day, I think he's even a little shorter than Rodimus Prime.
But he's still really cool and fun, so far the coolest of the MP line I've handled. But yes, I'm waiting for an update of that as well.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Dean ML » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:45 pm

The whole reason I got into the MP line is because of it's apparent mission of bringing the iconic G1 animation models to life. Or, in other words, make the toys I'd wished for since I was six to nine years old and watched the show religiously (and still do). So what's frustrating for me is when the figures deviates from the animation for no good reason. In my mind, the designers should strive for toon accuracy first and only refer to the original toys for surface detailing (Grimlock being a perfect example here). The only real misstep on Takara's end since refocusing the MP line is giving Red Alert red thighs. It would have been so easy to paint his thighs silver! I can't stand the half-assed toon/toy hybrid approach. Hasbro's the bigger offender with their terrible Rodimus deco that takes it's cues from the original toy. If I'd wanted a nod to the original toy I'd hunt one down or ask for a reissue! Hasbro ruined Soundwave for me with the yellow visor. Such a small thing, but I ended up paying $100 more for Takara's Soundwave (including his cassettes) just because the red visor is so much a part of his classic iconic image for me. Hasbro's Thundercracker is a little better, but his faction symbols are upside down and his tattoos are completely obnoxious and unnecessary. At least his eyes are red. To their credit, though, Hasbro's OP trumps Takara's because of it's generally more cartoon accurate colors (except for roller). It seems that Hasbro's MP goal is to take the mold and deco it opposite of what Takara did, regardless of whether it looks good, makes sense, or is what TFans want.

All that said, I cannot wait for the Datsun trio to finally arrive and eventually get peeks at Wheeljack and Bumblebee. CAN. NOT. WAIT!
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby warzon3 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:35 pm

I'm really curious how accurate they can get Bumblebee.

Like even Bumblebee's back had no kibble and that simple circle?
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby RAcast » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:45 pm

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warzon3 wrote:I'm really curious how accurate they can get Bumblebee.

Like even Bumblebee's back had no kibble and that simple circle?

Well they've certainly done right by the Autobot cars so far, so I expect it'll be spot on.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Bowspearer » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:22 pm

Dead Metal wrote:But feature the exact same transformation as the original toys, they would basically be the same, just feature more joints, be larger and maybe even look better in alt-mode, but they would still work the same and look pretty much the same in bot-mode.


That's why I'm saying your point is oxymoronic though. What you've described here is how a Masterpiece Microman/Dorvack/Beetras/Diaclone/misc figure would be done (eg a Masterpiece Diaclone Battle Convoy), rather than how a Masterpiece Transformers figure is done.

warzon3 wrote:I'm really curious how accurate they can get Bumblebee.

Like even Bumblebee's back had no kibble and that simple circle?


My guess is that the back/base will be a hinged panel that internalises all the kibble.
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Re: MP-20 Masterpiece Wheeljack & MP-21 Masterpiece Bumblebee

Postby Dean ML » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:27 am

warzon3 wrote:I'm really curious how accurate they can get Bumblebee.

Like even Bumblebee's back had no kibble and that simple circle?


No idea, but looking at the engineering that went into Optimus and especially Rodimus (QC aside), I'm confident they can pull it off.
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