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My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

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My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:40 pm

Hi, this is my fanon take on the famous G1 problem of Cyclonus, his Armada, Scourge, the Sweeps and the Insecticons etc. This is a possible way to explain some of the puzzling things that we see in Transformers the movie and in season 3 of the G1 cartoon. Obviously the real reason for these problems are animation errors and storyline continuity problems, but this is a way to get ones head around events, if taken as seen.

First, here is a list of the Unicron created characters, along with the previous characters whom I believe they originated from -


Unicron created Transformers shown -

Megatron ----> Galvatron

Thundercracker (No PC) ----> Scourge

Skywarp (No PC) ----> The Armada* ----> Skywarp (3H Wreckers comic.)

Bombshell (No PC) ----> Cyclonus

Shrapnel (No PC) ----> Sweep 1

Kickback (No PC) ----> Sweep 2

Blue generic (No PC?, dead?) (Seen being jettisoned) ----> Sweep 3

Another generic (No PC?, dead?) (Unseen) ----> Sweep 4*


(No PC) = No Personality component (See Spark explaination below)

* = Doesn't leave Unicron for the new ship


Here we see Cyclonus, his Armada, Scourge and FOUR Sweeps. This means that two other Sweeps must have been created from unknown Decepticons, off camera.
Image


A mysterious, blue generic Decepticon, seen being thrown from Astrotrain, maybe another dead generic was jettisoned as well, in order to account for the 4 Sweeps being created? This generic is not an Insecticon, as they are shown being jettisoned shortly afterwards.
Image

The 3 Insecticons are thrown out afterwards.
Image

Previously, Thundercracker, Skywarp and the Insecticons are seen alive but damaged, aboard Astrotrain before being thrown out.
Image


At least 4 Cyclonus clones (plus actual Cyclonus) are seen in Five faces of Darkness part 5.
Image



Explaination of events -

Unicron may have kept the Armada and the 4th Sweep behind, to serve as substitutes for Scourge and Cyclonus, in case they and the Sweeps were killed off during their mission. Thus they never left with the others for Galvatron's new ship, but went inside Unicron and waited for further commands.

Explaination of clones -
At least two of the Sweeps (Shrapnel and Kickback) and possibly Scourge and the 3rd and 4th Sweeps can clone themselves as the Insecticons did. At least 7 Sweeps are known to have existed at any one time (Sweep 6 and 7 are named) so there are 8 altogether if the 7 does not include Scourge himself. 3 Sweeps and Scourge originally left Unicron, thus either 3 (7 total) or 4 (8 total) are clones of the originals.
Cyclonus (Bombshell) has higher rank than Scourge and the Sweeps, so only clones himself rarely when extra firepower is needed eg. in Five Faces of Darkness, Part 5. As with the Insecticons, these clones may require constant control from the cloner in order for them to stay in existence, this would take up all of Cyclonus's concentration, thus leaving his command position over Scourge and the Sweeps, compromised for a time, while his clones are active.
Both sets of clones are weaker than Cyclonus, Scourge and the 3 main Sweeps and can die more easily. It is also unknown if the Armada can clone himself but if Scourge and the 3rd and 4th Sweeps have been gifted this ability by Unicron then he would have this ability also.
The reason for the Insecticons (and possibly Skywarp, Thundercracker too) being seen later in the movie and Season 3 is probably down to them being rebuilt by the Decepticons in order to plug the gaps of the previous characters who were lost.

Spark explaination -
It is possible that the minds or "Personality components" of the Insecticons, Thundercracker, Skywarp and generics, were removed by the other Decepticons before they were thrown off Astrotrain. These personality components would be the holder of the transformer's Cybernetic personality, or Spark in later canon, which was once granted by Vector Sigma.
This has presedent as Megatron once ordered a group of political prisoners known as the "renegade Decepticons" stripped down to their personality components and put into storage on Cybertron.
Starscream later installed some of these personality components into his new combaticons, bringing them to intelligent life (Episode 46, Season 2 "Starscream's Brigade"). See - http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php/P ... _component

Similarly, these removed personality components could have been installed in rebuilt versions of the Insecticons and maybe the 2 seekers in question, under Starscream's orders. The issue with the two seekers is a bit difficult because Thundercracker is obviously shown as being "Dead" in the crypt during Starscream's Ghost (Season 3, Episode 16), so his "appearence" at Starscream's coronation could have been just a similar generic Seeker. The death memorial of Thundercracker is only refering to his body, as his personality component was known to have been preserved.
Skywarp is a different matter, if we take the 3H Wreckers comic as G1 cartoon canon, then the Armada is later made back into Skywarp again. In The Wreckers part 04 - Finale Part II (published only as text), this Skywarp is said by Cyclonus to have had his "personality matrix" restored, which probably means the same as personality component. Skywarp certainly seems to retain Skywarp's memory of Cyclonus as a "bug" (Bombshell) which would be expected if his previous mind had been restored. So if we take this as canon it means that Skywarp and probably Thundercracker too had their personality components removed, as the Insecticons did. The Seekers seen at Starscream's coronation were still probably generics, why would Skywarp be resurrected twice?
It was probably Galvatron who had him resurrected, after Unicron was killed (see explaination below).
Starscream probably chose to only have the Insecticons rebuilt and didn't bother with the two Seekers, as they were seen as more loyal to Megatron than the more independent Insecticons.
It is unknown if Thundercracker had a new body built, on Galvatron's orders later on (obviously Scourge wasn't changed back into Thundercracker).
This would mean that Unicron must be able to grant new cybernetic personalities and personality components (later termed as Sparks) to the dead shells of the Decepticons when they are reformatted.
Unicron must in this case have access to the "Allspark" as does Vector Sigma. Later canon shows that Vector Sigma is really Primus in another form, thus it is possible that both "God" robots have Allspark access.
See - http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Reproduction#Resurrection

Explaination of the Armada becoming Skywarp again in the 3H Wreckers comic -
If we take the Wreckers comic as G1 cartoon canon, then the fact that the Armada is later changed back into Skywarp again could be explained like this - The Armada and the 4th Sweep were probably killed or badly damaged, when Unicron exploded in the movie. Maybe the 4th Sweep was lost but the body of the Armada must have been preserved somehow, then was found by the Decepticons who showed him to Galvatron (the only one who would recognise him as being Skywarp previously). Galvatron, not wanting a sentient Cyclonus lookalike (due to Cyclonus's second in command position), had him restored back to his old servant (as Megatron) Skywarp. Skywarp's personality component may have been stored inside Astrotrain when it was removed from him, but maybe elsewhere. Skywarp then worked in the background for the Decepticons, for unknown reasons, and is not involved in the later cartoon storylines. Later, during the Universe storyline, Skywarp has his body changed to his Universe Aero Drone model (based on Beast Machines Jetstorm), for more unknown reasons and is seen and involved with Cyclonus in that storyline.

Cyclonus and restored Skywarp together.
Image

Starscream's coronation seekers, must be generic seekers, the Insecticons were those rebuilt and restored under Starscream's short command.
Image


Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.
Last edited by Transcendent30 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:50 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:53 am

*Fanon mode* Probably, the other Autobots don't really die, they just get damaged and are fixed later. To actually die, the personality component would need to be damaged, so it could no longer hold the Spark. This only happened to Optimus Prime after his fight, not Ultra Magnus etc. If other Autobots do die, they must turn grey off camera.
Suddenly it all works, and has no errors at all!
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby PrymeStriker » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:31 am

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Sinnertwin wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?


Hasbro: "Because Optimus is more important."
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:28 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Transcendent30 wrote:*Fanon mode* Probably, the other Autobots don't really die, they just get damaged and are fixed later. To actually die, the personality component would need to be damaged, so it could no longer hold the Spark. This only happened to Optimus Prime after his fight, not Ultra Magnus etc. If other Autobots do die, they must turn grey off camera.
Suddenly it all works, and has no errors at all!


these boys must be taking nap then? ;)
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PrymeStriker wrote:Hasbro: "Because Optimus is more important."


:lol:
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:41 am

Yep, They're just badly damaged. KOed of you will, but the personality component is intact, thus no turning grey and dyings. Wheeljack turned up later in the Headmasters and Victory cartoon anyway, so he must have been fixed somehow, along with a few others who apparently "died" in the movie.

Now I'm gonna work on a hypothesis of how Omega Supreme's launch station is awaiting him when he lands in a new location (note - it will probably involve subspace).
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:51 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Transcendent30 wrote:Yep, They're just badly damaged. KOed of you will, but the personality component is intact, thus no turning grey and dyings. Wheeljack turned up later in the Headmasters and Victory cartoon anyway, so he must have been fixed somehow, along with a few others who apparently "died" in the movie.

Now I'm gonna work on a hypothesis of how Omega Supreme's landing gear is awaiting him when he lands in a new location (note - it will probably involve subspace).


KO'd :lol: The Japanese market didn't see the movie until 1989, so all the characters featured in the pre-movie seasons were still active, so to speak. I'd put that one down to continuity between the two markets than anything else
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:02 am

Yeah, this is well known, but in order for continuity to work overall....none of them died.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:11 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Continuity you say? :-? That explains why so many dead characters appeared after the movie in Season 3, i thought they were animation errors
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:15 am

Personality components are quite tough objects to break. Only reasonable solution.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:35 pm

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Omega has an inbuilt interdimemsional teleporter. Prime has a smaller unit for his trailer
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:51 am

I couldn't agree more. Most Transformers seem to have mini interdimemsional teleporters as well, to summon weapons out of thin air.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Yweggo » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:15 pm

Also if you go with the PC removal(and rebuliding) Thundercracker, Skywarp, and the bugs could have been killed when Unicron attacked Cybertron, thus "why" they don't appear in Session 3, right?
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:47 pm

Not quite. In my hypothesis, Thundercracker became Scourge and Skywarp became the Armada. Who knows when Skywarp would have been rebuilt under Galvatron's orders but we don't see either of them again after the movie. We do see the Insecticons in season 3 however (Five faces of Death). These must have been rebuilt using their recovered PCs.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:10 pm

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It's no secret that the 3H Wreckers comic does explicitly state that Bombshell became Cyclonus and Skywarp his Armada.

BUT, the United "Macrocosmic Seekers" story explicitly states the opposite, with Skywarp being the one who became Cyclonus. :P

Sinnertwin wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?
Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.

Sinnertwin wrote:these boys must be taking nap then? ;)
Image
Transcendent30 wrote:Yep, They're just badly damaged. KOed of you will, but the personality component is intact, thus no turning grey and dyings.
The binaltech fiction confirmed that Wheeljack is deadity deadity dead in that pic. :P

Sinnertwin wrote:KO'd :lol: The Japanese market didn't see the movie until 1989, so all the characters featured in the pre-movie seasons were still active, so to speak. I'd put that one down to continuity between the two markets than anything else
Transcendent30 wrote:Yeah, this is well known, but in order for continuity to work overall....none of them died.
Though the Japanese didn't get the movie until 1989, they were still very much aware of its events since the entire point of much the 1986 TV Magazine story pages were dedicated to summarizing the "Unicron War" and getting Japanese viewers caught up on its events.

And the Japanese dub of "Dark Awakening" still had Daniel acknowledge Ironhide, Prowl, Ratchet, and Huffer as all being dead (despite some of them appearing in The Headmasters a year later).
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby BeastProwl » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:50 pm

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If I may touch on the "subspace" bit?
Remember Animated Swindle's "Storage?"
The Autobots and Decepticons both have hidden armories in deep space accessible via portable wormhole generators.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:10 am

I believe 3H Comics had the backing of Hasbro, which trumps Takara's United material when it comes to canon, so Bombshell's old body became Cyclonus 100% of definite.

Ok I forgot about Dark Awakening, The Autobot Mausoleum definitely has Ironhide, Ratchet, Prowl, Huffer, and Optimus Prime all dead and entombed in it.

I just re-watched the movie, nope Prowl and Ratchet do not turn grey when they die, but they must have gone grey off camera.

Wheeljack may have been dead as well, as the others seem to have been. The fact we see him and Prowl in later cartoon storylines is probably due to them being rebuilt using existing blue prints (as with the Insecticons), and then given a different (or maybe their original) spark, through the power of Vector Sigma.

As for Binialtech fiction, well that is no longer in continuity with the cartoon anyway, as it branched off into its own universe.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:55 pm

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Sinnertwin wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?

excuse me..................but you need to rewatch the film.

All the,in narrative, "confirmed dead" autobots, except Ironhide and Huffer, faded to gray.

And for the record, the "in narrative" confirmed dead are

Ratchet....,,,,faded color
Prowl..........faded color
Optimus Prime..faded color
Ironhide.......we never saw his body after death
Huffer.........died off screan
and we never saw Ironhide after he died.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:00 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:It's no secret that the 3H Wreckers comic does explicitly state that Bombshell became Cyclonus and Skywarp his Armada.

BUT, the United "Macrocosmic Seekers" story explicitly states the opposite, with Skywarp being the one who became Cyclonus. :P


well they are 2 different continuities

Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.


good memory bud :APPLAUSE:

The binaltech fiction confirmed that Wheeljack is deadity deadity dead in that pic.

again, a different continuity
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:04 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Transcendent30 wrote:I just re-watched the movie, nope Prowl and Ratchet do not turn grey when they die, but they must have gone grey off camera.


Sorry buddy, but you were not paying close attention.

Prowl faded in color in the close up shots of his face.

Ratch's faded hand can be seen when Megatron walks by his budy....no less while Ironhide is fully colored.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:35 pm

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Weapon: Saber Blade
Transcendent30 wrote:I believe 3H Comics had the backing of Hasbro, which trumps Takara's United material when it comes to canon, so Bombshell's old body became Cyclonus 100% of definite.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, back up there, man. Whether it's Hasbro or Takara, anything officially released under the license of either is canon. There's no "one company trumps another" in such a case as this. All officially licensed fiction is canon in some form.

Transcendent30 wrote:I just re-watched the movie, nope Prowl and Ratchet do not turn grey when they die, but they must have gone grey off camera.

Ratchet:
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Prowl:
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Image
Image

While neither fade nearly as dark as Optimus or Starscream do, both fade to a darker tone than normal. Ratchet's red hands go dark and Prowl's white gets duller while his reds also darken as well.

Transcendent30 wrote:As for Binialtech fiction, well that is no longer in continuity with the cartoon anyway, as it branched off into its own universe.
In the specific Binaltech story that says Cartoon Wheeljack died in the movie, Binaltech Wheeljack looks from his timeline through portal into the timeline of the movie's events and acknowledges his cartoon self as being dead.

================================================================================

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:well they are 2 different continuities
again, a different continuity
I know I know. But the OP seems to like blending English and Japanese continuities together, so I was going along with his thinking until the right moment to drop the "different languages = different continuities" bomb. :lol:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.


good memory bud :APPLAUSE:
And I finally found the old topic where you posted them (though, a LOT of them seemed to have been deleted, so I made do with what I could find). :oops:
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:49 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:well they are 2 different continuities
again, a different continuity
I know I know. But the OP seems to like blending English hand Japanese continuities together, so I was going along with his thinking until the right moment to drop the "different languages = different continuities" bomb. :lol:

ahh, didnt know that.
Sabrblade wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.


good memory bud :APPLAUSE:
And I finally found the old topic where you posted them (though, a LOT of them seemed to have been deleted, so I made do with what I could find). :oops:


I see.Not exactly deleated, but moved to new folders.
I'll post them all right now for all gto see.

Prowl standing to fight, full color,his white areas are very bright and pay close attention to the horns on his head....see they are RED
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he is shot...horns still red, whites still bright
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skip ahead to his falling.........whites are dull other areas are muted.
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close ups begin....watch the horns fade to gray while the bright white dulls, even his face color darkens

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Image
Image
Image

Image
Image
Image
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Here we see Ratchet standing.Main body white, RED HANDS
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heres a close up of his hands
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falling to ground
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now we skip a head to when Megatron pass's the bodies of Ironhide and Ratchet on the ground

look at Ratch's hand and arm, duller white, and a gray/black hand.Ironhide still fully red and still alive as we all know ...for at least a few seconds.
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Image
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:18 am

Ah, I see the fading to grey now, that all happened very fast! Anyway 3h Wreckers comic is in continuity with the G1 cartoon, is the Takara United stuff? United fiction is probably its own universe branch like the Classics fiction. Cyclonus may be Skywarp......in the United universe only.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Red 50 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:58 pm

Motto: "Never send an army to do a dinobot's job"
Weapon: Twin Sonic Cannons
Great. Now I can't get my mind off the first greatest carnage of beloved and iconic characters.

It's not such a bad thing. It's just a sad scene.
Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet, Ironhide...
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby PrymeStriker » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:06 pm

Motto: "Brilliant"
Weapon: Augmented Quark Disruptor
Red 50 wrote:It's not such a bad thing. It's just a sad scene.
Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet, Ironhide...


Let me fix that for you.

Red 50 wrote:It's not such a bad thing. It's just the best scene ever.
Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet, Ironhide. :DANCE:


:twisted: :KREMZEEK:
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Transformers Podcast: Twincast / Podcast #106 - McCarthyism
Twincast / Podcast #106:
"McCarthyism"
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