PrymeStriker wrote: Bowspearer wrote:
In this case with Hound, take a good look at his tech spec for example:
Hound loves the natural wonders of Earth, prefers it to Cybertron. Brave, fearless, loyal. Secretly desires to be human. Uses turret gun as radar scope, infrared radiation collector. Tracks machines as well as humans. Hologram gun projects 3-dimensional grid laser-light topographical maps. Vulnerable to thermal and electromagnetic interference.
In other words, the core of the character is that he's an explorer in love with everything about the planet, including all its wildlife - to the point whee he secretly wishes he was human. On top of that, his powers are all based around being a scout.
First of all, these are two seperate characters. Same name, same franchise, two different guys. Why you think they need
to be the exact same escapes me.
With your logic, every character ever named "Billy Bob" should have the same exact character as the first character named "Billy Bob," even if they're in two different fictions.
If so, then why isn't Outback
from G.I Joe not a insubordinate like Outback from G1?
Why isn't Payload from Armada a pilot like Payload
for G.I Joe? They totally screwed that guy up by making him a muscular mini-con.
What about Shockwave
from G.I Joe? He's a S.W.A.T Specialist! WTF! You know that your Shockwaves are supposed to be one-eyed scientists!
Same distributor, right? They should be keeping their characters identical!
Not convinced yet? Here's some more examples...
1) Looks like we've got a new argument: RIRRIP (Rumble is Robot, Rumble
2) How come Hot Spot
is a Teen Titan? Shouldn't he be with the Protectobots?
I hope you realize how ridiculous comparing those completely separate characters sounds, because there's no incompatibility between the examples I just gave and G1 --> Movie characters, or G1 --> Any franchise afterwards. They're made under the same machine, but they are two different fictions.
You're argument here is completely flawed. In fact the technical term for your fallacy here is a "prima facie". We're not talking about characters in completely different franchises here. What we're talking about is a character not only within the franchise, but as these movies have been sold as, based on G1. The fact that your argument fails to draw that distinction is where it completely falls apart.
PrymeStriker wrote:Secondly, we've only seen the guy's vehicle mode. Sure, bruisers as big as him are often just tough guys, but look at Rescue Bots Boulder for example. He's a big guy who is incredibly fascinated by Earth customs and nature (just like Hound). They could take it in that direction. Though I personally doubt it, it is still a possibility.
The alt mode is going to affect the physical attributes of a character. The fact is that a smaller offroad vehicle fits the portrayal of Hound who is not only a lower of earth, but as a scout, an explorer, far better that something that big that his exploring efforts would end in clumsiness.
PrymeStriker wrote:Whether you like the way two characters are portrayed is up to you, and whether or not you want your favorite characters portrayed a certain way is your business, but I wouldn't go around here acting like it's the principal of the thing to keep all characters identical across multiple dimensions. Not only is that flipping a middle finger to the popularization of dimension interfacing, but it says to everyone else "I don't care if you're bored with the same old guy. I want my childhood raping reversed."
Another baseless argument. It's highly convenient that you bring up the cartoon and completely ignore the comics as they completely turn your argument on its head. Buy your argument I must despise the IDW Dead-Furmanverse because it's not a carbon copy of the G1 cartoon, yet I love their take on it and much like Bayformers, it's supposedly
based on G1. However Unlike Bayformers, that isn't just a hollow, tokenistic claim in the case of IDW. Own goal.
If someone is just lapping up everything but feels no strong connection to any characters
You mean the characters that G1 showed us for a half a second just to sell toys? It's hard as hell (no pun intended) to feel a strong connection to a guy who's only had a strong role in a couple of episodes. G1 sucked
at connecting characters with the audience.
Firstly, Hound was very much a prominent character in the cartoon. Secondly, since when did the Marvel comic cease to exist?
or feels that characters they're not that attached to
Which was almost everyone in G1.
Again, read the Marvel comics and get back to me when you actually
have an informed opinion.
then they're at best, a fairly casual fan.
Okay, I see. So, no matter how much I watch Transformers cartoons, read the (recent) comics, watch the movies, buy the toys, and defend misinterpreted facts (which I do a lot
here) about Transformers plotlines, history, characterization, etc., I'm merely a casual fan.
Just because I think the G1 cartoon was a plague against cartoons in general doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan than anyone else here.
So in other words, you're basing your argument on never having read the original comics and apparently aren't that attached to the modern comics either (as the IDW stuff all bases its characterisations on G1) and letting your hatred for one serious cause you to view the very characters which are ultimately the franchise, with contempt? Do I even need to pooint out the elephant in the room there?
Hardcore fans on the other hand, are highly protective of the characters,
Hardcore fans....like...Geewunners...or general fans?
And almost on queue, the shaming trope which implies that I must
want everything to be a carbon copy
of the G1 cartoon. Of course the fact that the reason I have little time for the movies and love IDW is because unlike Bay, they actually managed to redux G1 the right
way, just can't be true, now can it.
You can't tell me that there isn't a distinct level of difference in how much of a fan someone is between those two types of fans.
The fandom can be split into more than two categories, bro. We could go on for ages until we are
an age of extinction about them.
People are always going to be interested in different things in the fandom and to different levels, however true fans will always respect the whole enough that even if it's not quite a part of the mythos they're heavily into, they'd want someone adapting it to at least take enough of the core premise of the story and grasp the essence of the character, enough to at least make a respectful adaptation.
I have no problem with new directions - in fact had we gotten with the movies what we got with the Dead Furmanverse, I'd have been over the moon. However the key difference is what that series knew to keep in and what it new to completely change. This situation with Hound is a classic example of that."
SlyTF1 wrote:I have a strong connection to the movie's characters, whom I am defending. I could give a damn less about what G1 characters were "ruined".
Which is fair enough, but here's the thing. If someone took characters with the same names, and completely ruined the essence of those characters, you'd be pretty pissed right?
That's the problem most of us who are fans of G1 have with the movie characterisations. The thing is that this movie series is supposed to be based on G1, yet you wind up with character names slapped on characters which are nothing like the original characters. Where I have nothing but contempt for these movies is where the likes of Bay et al, don't simply either look for a character whose essence lines up with the character they're going with and name them accordingly, or just simply give them a unique name to begin with.
If ROTF Skids wasn't named Skids, but given another name which was either original or more fitting, then beyond the PC crown having issues with the racist undertones of the character, most G1 fans wouldn't have half the issues with that characterisation that they do.
5150 Cruiser wrote:
...So... Please explain, how this mean that he must be a jeep and nothing else? How is it that in the bio you posted, it suggests that his vehicle mode is limited to only being a Jeep? Especially when we had someone in the military already explain that in modern times his current movie alt mode is a more wildly used vehicle than Jeeps as scout vehicles?
Honestly its this type of mentality that gets the "hard core fans" voice not heard. You want to pass judgment based solely on an alt mode without seeing anything else.
Talk about an own goal here. You accuse me of inflexibility when you're hung up on an aspect of his vehicle mode which generally speaking, did little to define his character. The fact is that when the military option was going to be incompatible with the essence of the character, it should have been dropped, in favour of simply giving his character a dark olive-green paintjob.
Secondly, I never said it HAD to be a jeep, although that's the obvious go to choice. What I am saying is that he needs to be a small rugged off-road vehicle. A 4WD for example, would have been a far better choice - or anything else which fits the bill for example. This vehicle mode might be rugged, but it's way too big for a scout by function and explorer by nature - which is very much what Hound is.
5150 Cruiser wrote:
Bowspearer wrote: This is where people fail to grasp how you measure how much of a fan someone is. If someone is just lapping up everything but feels no strong connection to any characters or feels that characters they're not that attached to should be butchered in their portrayals, then they're at best, a fairly casual fan. Hardcore fans on the other hand, are highly protective of the characters, feel strong connections to them and feel that all the characters, even those they don't feel a strong connection to, should be handled respectfully. You can't tell me that there isn't a distinct level of difference in how much of a fan someone is between those two types of fans.
Then that's your fault. Your the one who has chosen to invest as much time as you have in this hobby
. Because if that's your mentality then your going to be let down alot more than pleased. Things have changed along before the movies came out, and they will continue to change long after their gone.
There's a difference between openly creating series in parallel universes, completely divorced from G1 on one hand, and claiming to base something on G1, only to take a giant dump on it, on the other hand.
5150 Cruiser wrote: Besides if your truly bragging on how much more of a "fan" you are than that's a bit sad. Because no matter how much you hope and wish, your thoughts are no better than mine. Your opinions are no better than that of the "casual fan". Your money doesn't take a prescience over that of the casual fan. But hey, I'll go with a split of the "fandom". Cause if everyone thought like you, this hobby would be an extremely boring place. With no diversity. No Change. Just the same 'ol in every franchise? No thank you.
Wow, another own goal from you. First off I was never bragging about how much of a fan I was. Someone made the ludicrous claim that someone who was indifferent about how respectfully characters of a fandon are treated is just as much of a fan (ie passionate about the franchise) as someone far more protective of those characters and the core of that mythology. That's not dick measuring, like you and Burn imply it is; that's just simply logic.
Then we get to your next fallacy - at no point have I said that money was a factor in determining how much of a fan someone is. In fact when someone asked me earlier in this thread if money was a factor, I all but came out and said it wasn't. If someone has no money to spend on something but is deeply passionate about the characters and wants to see them treated respectfully, then they're far more of a fan than someone who conversely throws money at a franchise, but at the same time is utterly indifferent to how disrespectfully the characters who make up that franchise are handled.
Ultimately that's sadly where Transformers has largely been let down by its own fan base. Instead of a fandom that insists on a redux where at the very least, the essence of the characters is maintained; we instead have a situation where countless people instead think we "should be grateful we're getting anything and telling other fans they need to just "switch off as a fan" and support a franchise which has done nothing but take a giant dump on so many characters which are the reason we're supposedly all here (and no I'm not talking about things like Prime being a long nosed semi-trailer instead of a Peterbilt). The character deserve far better from us.