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Hey, I was reading the other thread and since it was locked, I wanted to chime in here. To Hasbro's credit, they did step in and say no when Sentinel Prime was originally going to be Ultra Magnus (and thus commit the betrayal). They figured Sent. Prime was more of an expendable character.

I blame all parties involved when it comes to the movies as an end product. Spielberg for even picking Bay in the first place. He can't tell a great story with depth, rather just eye candy, lingerie models and crude humor. I blame the writers and Paramount for continuing the movie during the strike and not postponing. ROTF wouldn't have been nearly as bad. ILM saved that movie & carried it on its back. I blame Hasbro for pretty much letting the producers and studios do whatever they want with reckless abandon save for the Sent. Prime thing I mentioned.
This probably won't happen, but I'd like the next movies to be devoid of Bay, Spielberg, and Paramount. Enough is enough.

It would've been better if the movies were written as a trilogy ending with the Unicron story. It looks like GI Joe will be that way so far. Seems more like they just wrote them on the spot for TF though. Not wanting to keep continuity.

vectorA3 wrote:Hey, I was reading the other thread and since it was locked, I wanted to chime in here. To Hasbro's credit, they did step in and say no when Sentinel Prime was originally going to be Ultra Magnus (and thus commit the betrayal). They figured Sent. Prime was more of an expendable character.

I blame all parties involved when it comes to the movies as an end product. Spielberg for even picking Bay in the first place. He can't tell a great story with depth, rather just eye candy, lingerie models and crude humor. I blame the writers and Paramount for continuing the movie during the strike and not postponing. ROTF wouldn't have been nearly as bad. ILM saved that movie & carried it on its back. I blame Hasbro for pretty much letting the producers and studios do whatever they want with reckless abandon save for the Sent. Prime thing I mentioned.
This probably won't happen, but I'd like the next movies to be devoid of Bay, Spielberg, and Paramount. Enough is enough.

It would've been better if the movies were written as a trilogy ending with the Unicron story. It looks like GI Joe will be that way so far. Seems more like they just wrote them on the spot for TF though. Not wanting to keep continuity.

Now thats fair.
Like the movies or not, their are mutiple parties involed that share in the praise/blame.

exactly. And with all I said, by no means is Bay a golden boy or responsible for saving TF. Anyone who directed the new movies would've put them back in the spotlight.

I wonder how long before this thread attracts the bay-bashers?

Anyways, valid points. No one is more to blame/praise than the others. Good job for being sensible.

@ vector A3: you forgot the biggest one at fault (IMO anyway): the viewing/buying public. as long as the general public likes the movies and buys the toys (thus making money) then there's no reason for steven, michael, paramount and hasbro to change anything. you could have an all-star cast of highly acclaimed directors,thespians,screenwrites, SFX guys, composers,musicians, create an epic g1 movie that the critics love and have awesome toys that are technically engineering marvels but the public hates(box office bomb,toys are shelfwarmers for decades), it's pratically sad if that was the case.

Optimus Primevil wrote:@ vector A3: you forgot the biggest one at fault (IMO anyway): the viewing/buying public. as long as the general public likes the movies and buys the toys (thus making money) then there's no reason for steven, michael, paramount and hasbro to change anything. you could have an all-star cast of highly acclaimed directors,thespians,screenwrites, SFX guys, composers,musicians, create an epic g1 movie that the critics love and have awesome toys that are technically engineering marvels but the public hates(box office bomb,toys are shelfwarmers for decades), it's pratically sad if that was the case.

and the DOTM toys aren't shelf warming?? Everywhere I go the pegs are cluttered with them.
I'll take a well made G1 movie that public hates (they're not true fans anyway), than the crap we're getting now. When a beloved franchise is whored out solely to make money -- that is sad.

that's the problem, how many are the 'true'(how does one consider him/herself to be a 'true' fan anyway?) compared to the rest of the public who don't like g1 but liked the bay movies. 'hardcore' videogame fans are scoffing at nintendo's wii for pandering to casuals but the bottomline is hard to ignore and that what it all comes down to, cold hard cash.


and how can a franchise that was born to sell toys whore itself out?

vectorA3 wrote:

Optimus Primevil wrote:@ vector A3: you forgot the biggest one at fault (IMO anyway): the viewing/buying public. as long as the general public likes the movies and buys the toys (thus making money) then there's no reason for steven, michael, paramount and hasbro to change anything. you could have an all-star cast of highly acclaimed directors,thespians,screenwrites, SFX guys, composers,musicians, create an epic g1 movie that the critics love and have awesome toys that are technically engineering marvels but the public hates(box office bomb,toys are shelfwarmers for decades), it's pratically sad if that was the case.

and the DOTM toys aren't shelf warming?? Everywhere I go the pegs are cluttered with them.
I'll take a well made G1 movie that public hates (they're not true fans anyway), than the crap we're getting now. When a beloved franchise is whored out solely to make money -- that is sad.

agree with both, aside from the whoring out part obviously

vectorA3 wrote: I'll take a well made G1 movie that public hates (they're not true fans anyway), than the crap we're getting now. When a beloved franchise is whored out solely to make money -- that is sad.

It cracks me up when people say things like "They only did this to make money, and that's wrong!" about TF or any other product. Especialy
Thats been the whole purpose of TF since the begining. Lets not forget that since its conception of G1, the whole purpose was to sell toys and make money. And for the most part, it worked very very well. Other wise, we would not even be having this conversation right now.

Optimus Primevil wrote:that's the problem, how many are the 'true'(how does one consider him/herself to be a 'true' fan anyway?) compared to the rest of the public who don't like g1 but liked the bay movies. 'hardcore' videogame fans are scoffing at nintendo's wii for pandering to casuals but the bottomline is hard to ignore and that what it all comes down to, cold hard cash.


and how can a franchise that was born to sell toys whore itself out?

This is 100% correct. The only thing i'd aurgue is that just cause a casual fan liked the movies, doesn't mean he/she can't like G1 as well. Its just like Sentinel Prime/spock said in DOTM...
"The needs of the many, out weight, the needs of the few."
IN this case, the general public/audience is the many, and the fandom the few.
It's not easy to please both. I do however, feel that could have meet half way a little bit better.

achieving that balance is the trickiest part because if they tried to make a movie that appeals to old and new fans, the worst they can do is make something that displeases both camps. as far as i know the only show that could claim the honor of doing that is batman: the brave and the bold cartoon (of course that's subject to one's opinion) because it appeals to both camps who prefer their batman light and dark (how many batmans do you know who'd punch a woman to the face with a giant robot hand?).

5150 Cruiser wrote:

vectorA3 wrote: I'll take a well made G1 movie that public hates (they're not true fans anyway), than the crap we're getting now. When a beloved franchise is whored out solely to make money -- that is sad.

It cracks me up when people say things like "They only did this to make money, and that's wrong!" about TF or any other product. Especialy
Thats been the whole purpose of TF since the begining. Lets not forget that since its conception of G1, the whole purpose was to sell toys and make money. And for the most part, it worked very very well. Other wise, we would not even be having this conversation right now.

Optimus Primevil wrote:that's the problem, how many are the 'true'(how does one consider him/herself to be a 'true' fan anyway?) compared to the rest of the public who don't like g1 but liked the bay movies. 'hardcore' videogame fans are scoffing at nintendo's wii for pandering to casuals but the bottomline is hard to ignore and that what it all comes down to, cold hard cash.


and how can a franchise that was born to sell toys whore itself out?

This is 100% correct. The only thing i'd aurgue is that just cause a casual fan liked the movies, doesn't mean he/she can't like G1 as well. Its just like Sentinel Prime/spock said in DOTM...
"The needs of the many, out weight, the needs of the few."
IN this case, the general public/audience is the many, and the fandom the few.
It's not easy to please both. I do however, feel that could have meet half way a little bit better.

Yes. Agree 100% with your last sentence. That's all i wanted.

And, point taken - G1 TF was originally conceived to sell toys. I just don't like how blatant Hollywood & Bay have been about whoring it out

Full shelves =/= Shelfwarming
I'm not sure what you mean about "whoring out." Stuff like Megatron underpants or Bumblebee cell phones I could understand, but overflowing shelves of transforming action figure/vehicles I can't.
Modern TF media is also a good deal less "toy commercial"y than G1 or, to a lesser extent, Beast Wars.


How much say can Hasbro realistically have in the movies? I mean, they can set certain guidelines for characters to keep them "true" --and most characters have done so in the movies-- but I doubt they can really do anything about subjective bits (i.e. style, humor, vulgarity, violence), artistic license and all that.

IIRC, Hasbro made sure the TFs actually talked, as well as tried to give Soundwave a 'musical' alt mode (which more or less just applied for the first movie). They evidently also 'schooled' the film crew on TF lore, and I'm sure they assigned the core TF cast (i.e. Optimus, Megatron, BB, Starscream).
Similarly, Hasbro made sure Snake-Eyes had a mask for the recent GI Joe movie (darn movie execs).

vectorA3 wrote:I just don't like how blatant Hollywood & Bay have been about whoring it out

Can you elaborate on this?

Because I have no idea what you mean by it.

Bay made movies. They went into cinemas. People went to see movies. Movies made money.

Any other director would have done the same thing.

Or do you wish the movies had never been made at all and that Hasbro had simply stuck with churning out a cartoon with a toy line attached?

Because really, that's going to keep the franchise going when it's competing with the likes of Ben 10, Star Wars and Cars.

it's not like the bay films have reached the level of evangelion in terms of merchandising (how many stuff did they release between the old movies and the new ones?)

though maybe he's talking about the licenses for the cars?

Not understanding this here. Why does Hasbro need to be accountable? With Paramount and Michael Bay, they created a very succesful Trilogy of box office juggernauts, 3 successful toylines, and breathed new life into the franchise which was at the point of getting lobbed into the Pokemon/YuGiOh category.

Could we have had a better director? Yes. Do I care at this point? no. Why? Cause the franchise is no longer cult status.

ROTF had it's faults, but it had it's high points. Also, the fact that they were even able to make that movie during the writers strike is impressive.

Sentinel Prime does not always have to be based on what lttle we know about him. Seeing how the movieverse is a different world from G1 like how SG is separate from them, I don't really see a need for Sentinel to be the same as his G1 style.

Did I hate Sentinel Prime in the movie? Yes, but not because they "raped a character". It was because he tried to play god and put his own desires above the needs of the many. He was villain who was only repentant when he realized he was going to die.

I just don't understand all the hate for the live action films.

"they raped my childhood' is the stock answer for that

Optimus Primevil wrote:"they raped my childhood' is the stock answer for that

...


This actually did. Just saying.

robofreak wrote:Not understanding this here. Why does Hasbro need to be accountable? With Paramount and Michael Bay, they created a very succesful Trilogy of box office juggernauts, 3 successful toylines, and breathed new life into the franchise which was at the point of getting lobbed into the Pokemon/YuGiOh category.

Could we have had a better director? Yes. Do I care at this point? no. Why? Cause the franchise is no longer cult status.

ROTF had it's faults, but it had it's high points. Also, the fact that they were even able to make that movie during the writers strike is impressive.

Sentinel Prime does not always have to be based on what lttle we know about him. Seeing how the movieverse is a different world from G1 like how SG is separate from them, I don't really see a need for Sentinel to be the same as his G1 style.

Did I hate Sentinel Prime in the movie? Yes, but not because they "raped a character". It was because he tried to play god and put his own desires above the needs of the many. He was villain who was only repentant when he realized he was going to die.

I just don't understand all the hate for the live action films.

Exactly. Sentinel in this universe is a refreshing deviation of character from the basic cardboard cutout meant to die predecessor. RoTF was bad, yes, but not Batman & Robin bad (as some people are comparing.)

Bay not only brought Transformers back from the brink of Yugioh status, he brought in truckloads of new fans.

JetOptimus23 wrote:Exactly. Sentinel in this universe is a refreshing deviation of character from the basic cardboard cutout meant to die predecessor. RoTF was bad, yes, but not Batman & Robin bad (as some people are comparing.)

Bay not only brought Transformers back from the brink of Yugioh status, he brought in truckloads of new fans.

What's funny is that the more I see ROTF, the more I think it's a better movie than what the vocal minority says. Yeah, it still had parts that sucked, but there's no denying that ILM really shined in that movie and they did a good job of creating unique parts of the mythos for it.

As much as I like the look of RID and AEC stuff, the franchise would probably not be doing well if they had stuck to that formula and not branched out to newer stuff. Japanese anime has lost a lot of popularity lately so for them to have continued with the style, it just would not have lasted. Especially with new Marvel movies and old 80's cartoon reboots out right now.

robofreak wrote:

JetOptimus23 wrote:Exactly. Sentinel in this universe is a refreshing deviation of character from the basic cardboard cutout meant to die predecessor. RoTF was bad, yes, but not Batman & Robin bad (as some people are comparing.)

Bay not only brought Transformers back from the brink of Yugioh status, he brought in truckloads of new fans.

What's funny is that the more I see ROTF, the more I think it's a better movie than what the vocal minority says. Yeah, it still had parts that sucked, but there's no denying that ILM really shined in that movie and they did a good job of creating unique parts of the mythos for it.

As much as I like the look of RID and AEC stuff, the franchise would probably not be doing well if they had stuck to that formula and not branched out to newer stuff. Japanese anime has lost a lot of popularity lately so for them to have continued with the style, it just would not have lasted. Especially with new Marvel movies and old 80's cartoon reboots out right now.

...Why did you include Energon in the list of styles you liked...?

Yes, I agree that the Effects in that movie were good, but DOTM was just incredible, with the Chicago stuff. I loved the Factory/Forest battle, with all the flips, counters, and shots all going on at the same time. That was awesome.

@Robofreak-When i started the first hasbro acoutability thread, it was more aimed at thosebthat didnt care for the movies. They seemed to blame Bay for everything when it there are several other parties invloved. The main being hasbro. They ownedbthe name. So to me if you dont like the movies then i feel that hasbro should share some of the blame. Now of course this goes both ways. If you like the movies then give them some credit. I dont hold them 100%acountable, but neither do i hold Bay 100% either. Overall ibthink all parties involved did a great job with what they had to work with. Whom ever comes in and takes the ranes next is going to have big shoes to fill.

I'm sure all entities involved in the production of the films are responsible for the sub-par quality of the recent Transformers movies. I will, however, make honorable mentions of Steve Jablonsky on a beautiful score and the special effects teams for top notch CGI. Unfortunately, pretty pictures and sounds a good film does not make.

As one a page back said... He has a problem with energon? I liked energon! The show and toys were great fun to me!
On topic, I tink that Bay and Hasbro are both culprits here, at least to those of you who DON'T like the films. I for one, Love ALL 3 Films. I just have a few MINOR Complaints, mainly in the character's just up and dissapearing department, otherwise, the films are great fun, and are ment for your intertainment! If you paid to go see the film, just remember this:
If you paid to see it, Your just like the rest of us.

If you didn't like what you saw, Jus thank Primus it wasn't as bad as The Last Airbender, And Dragonball Evolution. the problems with BOTH those movies is, they tried to recreate complex stories, and failed miserably. Transformers, however, has been re-invented countless times, and That's what gives it the ability to be re-invented again, only for the big screen! New universe, familiar faces, same names, Lots of $$$.

BeastProwl wrote:As one a page back said... He has a problem with energon? I liked energon! The show and toys were great fun to me!
On topic, I tink that Bay and Hasbro are both culprits here, at least to those of you who DON'T like the films. I for one, Love ALL 3 Films. I just have a few MINOR Complaints, mainly in the character's just up and dissapearing department, otherwise, the films are great fun, and are ment for your intertainment! If you paid to go see the film, just remember this:
If you paid to see it, Your just like the rest of us.

If you didn't like what you saw, Jus thank Primus it wasn't as bad as The Last Airbender, And Dragonball Evolution. the problems with BOTH those movies is, they tried to recreate complex stories, and failed miserably. Transformers, however, has been re-invented countless times, and That's what gives it the ability to be re-invented again, only for the big screen! New universe, familiar faces, same names, Lots of $$$.

If the TF movies ended up like Last Airbender or DB:Evolution (happen to be a fan of Avatar:TLA and Dragonball) I would have personally walked -WALKED- to California and kicked those responsible in the nads and willingly go to prison for aggravated assault, but I'm only nerd-raged about the current state of the TF films.

Yes, I saw all of them. Multiple times in fact, only by virtue that I'm a huge Transformers fan and needed to critique the movies. I am disappointed, but yes I suppose it could have been much, much worse. Getting stabbed in the hand isn't as bad as getting stabbed in the liver.

JetOptimus23 wrote:...Why did you include Energon in the list of styles you liked...?

Energon is a very specific style that I enjoy. To me, it's got a good mix of all my favorite looks and designs amongst the factions. Armada and Cybertron also compliment my collection tastes quite well. Movie style does as well, but it depends on my mood.

It was stated to not for anything in particular to this conversation. I just said that I really like AEC stuff. What I was trying to say though is that is Hasbro had just stuck with leaving Transformers in the Japanese anime realm, it would not be doing well right now.

Decepticon_Vandal wrote:I'm sure all entities involved in the production of the films are responsible for the sub-par quality of the recent Transformers movies. I will, however, make honorable mentions of Steve Jablonsky on a beautiful score and the special effects teams for top notch CGI. Unfortunately, pretty pictures and sounds a good film does not make.

indeed joint responsibility for mediocrity