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Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

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Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:01 pm

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
-Wikipedia definition of plot holes


Has everybody got that? Ok, good. Now we can begin.

So more than a few threads have been derailed over discussion of the plot of the previous two films. Let's redirect that energy hear to save other threads the trouble. Quite simply the trouble is accusations of plot holes by people who frankly do not know the definition of the term.

What counts as a plot hole? As the above quote dictates it's something that goes against the logic of the established plot, or blatantly leaves out information relevant to the plot. Amazingly, this thread will discuss both films...Transformers, and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen.

The sad truth about what people consider plot holes is that it can be influenced by bias. If you didn't like the film you'll see plot holes everywhere, usually fueled by inability or refusal to pay attention due to said dislike. Due to this we'll use what is listed at the Transformer's Wiki pages on the two films for examples. What we will not be listing are as follows due to thier common nature in any and all films:

1) Technical errors
2) Factual errors (getting the names and numbers of military equipment wrong, etc)
3) Continuity errors with no bearing on the plot (cups changing from glass to plastic between shots, etc)
4) Errors in sattelite continuities (books, comics, etc)

With that out of the way, let's begin.

Transformers (2007]
Barricade seems to disappear after the highway scene, as he is never shown again in the movie or the sequel.


A continuity error, at least if he doesn't show up in the third film.

Also unclear is why the military thought they could smuggle the All Spark out of town on a slow-moving helicopter, when fast-flying guys like Starscream and Megatron were around and well aware of the cube's location.


Agreed that helicopters are far too slow for evacuating anything in the given scenario, but at the same time only those who'd been at the Hoover Dam knew of the true threat so this is acceptable.

Why didn't Bumblebee use the All Spark to restore himself as Frenzy had done? Most likely because he was unaware the Allspark had such healing properties.


I've always wondered this myself. Rule of Drama was probably in play as well.

Fans have speculated that Starscream actually participated in the F-22 attack run on Megatron. While there's no concrete evidence either way, it doesn't make much sense for him to be destroying the jets beforehand if he's just going to turn around and help them in their mission a few seconds later. When asked about it, screenwriter Roberto Orci explicitly refused to address this theory since it would pose a plot thread for the sequel.


A deliberate Shrug of God rather than a continuity error. To be fair, there's no reason for him not to attack them either.

For that matter, the fact that Starscream completely incapacitates Ironhide and Ratchet (they're absent from the last eleven minutes of the fight) is not made clear. When we last see them, they are falling down, but Ironhide is still talking and moving.


While Ironhide did sound injured, they could have done a better job with this.

Epps emphatically states that F-22 pilots would never fly between buildings, as they'd just observed Starscream doing. Yet a few minutes later, that's exactly what the real F-22s do.


Yeah that one was pretty bad. :BANG_HEAD:

The denizens of Mission City are remarkably well-composed considering that global communications networks have been shut down. You'd think there'd be a bit more "panic in the streets"... especially with all the audible explosions, and people fleeing from previous battlegrounds. Yet nobody ever panics until those freaking giant robots come literally crashing into the next nearby building. You'd think the girl whose steering wheel is brought to life by the Allspark would have bigger problems than Sam denting her car... such as those giant robots fighting everywhere. Weirdness censor doesn't even begin to describe this.


Gonna agree with this one. The film does not take into account the reactions of people to a global crisis.

Mission City itself.


This one's more complex, and something that's bugged me. Mission City seems to become Los Angeles between the two films but I'll put that plot hole here. I wouldn't be surprised if Paramount wanted to avoid flak from people sensetive to scenes of city destruction in a post-9/11 world, so they invented a fictional city. In the original script it was actually Las Vegas.

That's it for the first film. RotF will be in the next post. For a list of other errors not pertaining to the plot, check here: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_%282007%29#Errors and http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mission_City

Please hold your responses until I've posted the second half...
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:15 pm

And now for the big one...

Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
Most of the NEST and American soldiers are seen using small-caliber arms such as assault rifles, machine guns and sniper rifles against the Decepticons, despite the previous film establishing that "high-heat" sabot rounds were the only means of penetrating Decepticon armour. Even if they somehow figured out how to make small caliber ammunition achieve the "high heat" required to damage Decepticon armour, it is extremely unlikely that such low-powered weapons would do any meaningful damage that warrants such widespread usage. After all, in real life, you can't kill a tank with a machine gun, well, unless you're in G.I. Joe.


The guns they carry, upon inspection, appear heavily modified. It's not beyond reason they modified their guns to carry specialized high heat ammo.

The notion that a big metal box (containing a complex electronic mechanism shouting to be released) would ever make it through airport luggage screening is a bit on the implausible side. The novelization of the film attributes this to Mikaela's Epic Hotness distracting the guard into just letting her through; she also claims that the box contains expensive mechanic's tools which might look strange in an x-ray. Neither explanation is present in the film itself, however.


In a film with a reputation for it's poor humor (which even I didn't like) this is simply Rule of Funny, and does not fall into the realm of a plot hole.

When Alice attacks Sam and his friends, the box Wheelie is imprisoned within is taken along, but the box is not seen when Mikela and Leo escape from the foundry in Bumblebee (the box should still be inside the wreckage of the car Mikaela hotwired at the college).


This is a plot hole. Can't argue that.

Given the Autobots are part of NEST and are dependent on the US Air Force for transportation around the world, it is not clear why Major Lennox had to be alerted to the fact the Autobots were on the east coast of the United States. Do the Autobot normally go on unexplained joyrides?


This was made with the assumption that the Autobots are forced to stay on Diago Garcia. There's no evidence to suggest they have to if they keep a low profile.

Where does Mikaela get the padding and gauze to bandage up Sam's hand?


One can easily assume Simmon's box of equipment for busting into the museum a few minutes earlier.

When Jetfire teleports to Egypt, Wheelie is seen landing by him, but disappears until the group reaches the border guards. After they arrive at the pyramids, Wheelie is seen rolling in with the quartet of humans, but is never seen again.


The other true plot hole in the film. Wheelie seems to be a magnet for these. :P

There's no rational reason for Simmons to climb the pyramid after Devastator. It looks like he's enabling the Navy ship to "fire on his position", which is useful when the firer can't see the target. However, as we find out just before the railgun is fired, the ship can see the pyramid. (And railguns are line-of-sight weapons, anyway.) So, Simmons didn't need to climb; he could have stayed someplace safe, called the ship, and told them, "Take a look at the pyramid, and shoot the giant robot tearing it up." It's also hard to believe he wasn't crushed by the flood of pyramid stones, which at one point are raining down on all four sides of the structure.


This would also hold up if it wasn't totally in character for Simmons to do something this stupid just to be in the middle of the action. As for the falling debris, no doubt he got lucky.

But we're not done yet. It's time for everyone's favorite fallback complaint: Geographical Errors!

And those are...

...not going to be listed. Why? Because short of making map writers cringe, how did they effect the continuity of the film? Sure there isn't an airplane graveyard behind the Air and Space Museum. Sure the Pyramid of Giza isn't located on the Gulf of Aqaba. I don't deny such errors are in the film, mostly due to me being neither blind nor stupid. But I'm not gonna make accusations that the film's plot falls apart because of it, because it didn't. Remember the definition of a plot hole from the first post. The geographical issues do not fall under such classification.

This thread is now open for discussion.

Edit: Whoops, forgot sources. All info about RotF's errors came from http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Fallen_%28film%29

Had Michael Bay's editing skills there for a moment I guess. ;)
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby dirk2243 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:14 pm

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
I liked both movies, but I'd only like to hit on Wheelie here

When interrogated as to why he was there, he screamed he was dead without the shard, there gonnna whack me without the shard....etc, etc..... and his small size. I'd hide out too in the middle of a showdown in the desert especially if I'd switched sides earlier from con to autobot.

Also, rail guns aren't on ships like that at this current time. This was probably mostly for dramatization of the movie.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Wing Saber II » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:17 pm

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A thing i'd like to ask about:
Wasn't Whellie one of the Transformers created by the shard in Sam's house?
If so, How does he have a mission, and how is he already a Decepticon?
If not, why would they send him to get the shard? He's small, so he can be easily defeated, and he's loud and not to smart, so he wouldn't be good for sneaking in and grabbing it
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby dirk2243 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:21 pm

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
Wing Saber II wrote:A thing i'd like to ask about:
Wasn't Whellie one of the Transformers created by the shard in Sam's house?
If so, How does he have a mission, and how is he already a Decepticon?
If not, why would they send him to get the shard? He's small, so he can be easily defeated, and he's loud and not to smart, so he wouldn't be good for sneaking in and grabbing it


No, he drove up and scanned the bag that had the shard in it. Then reported it to soundwave who told her to follow her. I believe soundwave did similar to Wheelie as he did ratchet, but thats just my opinion how he got there?
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:25 pm

dirk2243 wrote:Also, rail guns aren't on ships like that at this current time. This was probably mostly for dramatization of the movie.


Yeah, I didn't list that since it's a common belief (at least what I've seen) that if the military is testing a "prototype" than that means they've already wheeled out a working variant. Didn't we have SR-71's in the air years before they "debuted" for the first time? Understandable, of course, since they ran classified missions.

Plus in the film Simmons still called the railgun a prototype.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby dirk2243 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
Capt.Failure wrote:
dirk2243 wrote:Also, rail guns aren't on ships like that at this current time. This was probably mostly for dramatization of the movie.


Yeah, I didn't list that since it's a common belief (at least what I've seen) that if the military is testing a "prototype" than that means they've already wheeled out a working variant. Didn't we have SR-71's in the air years before they "debuted" for the first time? Understandable, of course, since they ran classified missions.

Plus in the film Simmons still called the railgun a prototype.


Good call. I'll push that believe button there
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:53 pm

dirk2243 wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:
dirk2243 wrote:Also, rail guns aren't on ships like that at this current time. This was probably mostly for dramatization of the movie.


Yeah, I didn't list that since it's a common belief (at least what I've seen) that if the military is testing a "prototype" than that means they've already wheeled out a working variant. Didn't we have SR-71's in the air years before they "debuted" for the first time? Understandable, of course, since they ran classified missions.

Plus in the film Simmons still called the railgun a prototype.


Good call. I'll push that believe button there


It's like alot of the "plot holes" in RotF. Wheelie aside, nothing accused of one holds up under scrutiny and most others are technical and factual errors, which are not plot holes by definition of the term.

Take using the railgun on Devestator. Why not shoot the Sun Harvester with it? A few things easily come to mind:

1) Railguns currently can only fire one shot before the barrel needs to be realigned completely.
2) Simmons said it was a prototype (see above)
3) Despite the situation, I'm sure Egypt wouldn't take kindly to US Navy ships firing Mach 7 tungsten slugs into a major historical landmark.

All the above listed don't take much thinking to fill in the plot hole, same with the other ones for RotF. If anything, the first film had way more actual plot holes.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby dirk2243 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:52 pm

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
Here is a question I have. Not so much a hole, but perhaps a forgotten detail? Megs was offline underwater and I'm assuming Brawl, Blackout, and perhaps Bonecrusher were close by. Did they have to really kill the little one for parts? Couldn't just look around?
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:06 pm

dirk2243 wrote:Here is a question I have. Not so much a hole, but perhaps a forgotten detail? Megs was offline underwater and I'm assuming Brawl, Blackout, and perhaps Bonecrusher were close by. Did they have to really kill the little one for parts? Couldn't just look around?


Always figured that Decepticons are just jerks and Scalpel was a bit of a sadist.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Tekka » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:23 am

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I'd hazard a guess that our friends have incorrectly labelled these very weak story elements as plot holes simply because there's no familiar common term for them that comes to mind. Make of that what you will.

I'm curious as to why you'd bring this up again though. :P Are you a glutton for punishment or just love fanning the flames? :KREMZEEK:
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:07 am

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Barricade was in Revenge of the Fallen, just for a moment. He was the one who grabbed Sam's parents off the street in Paris.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby 5150 Cruiser » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:29 am

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Rodimus Prime wrote:Barricade was in Revenge of the Fallen, just for a moment. He was the one who grabbed Sam's parents off the street in Paris.


Sure looked like a drone to me. At least when you compare its face to the other drones.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Rodimus Prime » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:36 am

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That's what i thought at first, then I did the whole slow motion pause-play on the DVD and it looked just like Barricade, though not black and white.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby dirk2243 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:57 am

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
I thought his head looked exactly like Grindors head. look at Grindor's head right before Prime rips it in 2 during the forest scene and then again at the parents abductor.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Optimus1138 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:27 am

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Capt.Failure wrote:
Epps emphatically states that F-22 pilots would never fly between buildings, as they'd just observed Starscream doing. Yet a few minutes later, that's exactly what the real F-22s do.


Yeah that one was pretty bad. :BANG_HEAD:


When Starscream arrived, there was no fighting yet, so there was no reason for the fighters to fly so low. However, IIRC, when the real F-22s were flying between buildings, the battle had started, and there would be more of a reason to fly low, such as so that they could get better shots at the Decepticons.

dirk2243 wrote:Here is a question I have. Not so much a hole, but perhaps a forgotten detail? Megs was offline underwater and I'm assuming Brawl, Blackout, and perhaps Bonecrusher were close by. Did they have to really kill the little one for parts? Couldn't just look around?


They may well have used some parts from the other Decepticons, such as Brawl's tank treads. It's possible that they needed "fresher" parts, as well. Brawl, Blackout, and Bonecrusher had all been killed while fighting, so they would all have been damaged. The Doctor could have needed parts that were damaged on all of the corpses down there.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby shamone » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:11 am

call them plot holes, call them gaps in logic they exist

Explanations like, rule of drama, rule of comedy arent really explanations but excuses.

As for other plot holes/gaps in logic

- how come bumblebee couldnt detect the pretender

- why did the primes sacrifice themselves if they were the only ones who could stop him

- how does one become a descendent of a prime. How do TF's propogate / (i dont want bay to answer that one)

- Why did they place the matrix, the key to the sun eater, so close to the sun eater.

- why did sam and the warrior goddess decide to walk a few miles to prime, when bee was beside them and could have driven them in a matter of minutes

- what was bee doing from that point until he turned up later to protect sam

- why did simmons need to climb the pyramid to say fire on my co-ordinates. surely the great pyramids of giza's co-ordinates would be pretty well known

- why didnt they destroy the sun eater as opposed to devestator. The rason being egypt wouldn tlike it. They just entered egypt without permission, there was already a diplomatic incident in place.

- how did the population of mission city/la all get MIB mind zapped in order for the TF's to be a secret. likewise the citizens in Shanghai
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby dirk2243 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:36 am

Motto: "If you don't believe me, just ask me.....I'll tell you all about it."
shamone wrote:call them plot holes, call them gaps in logic they exist

Explanations like, rule of drama, rule of comedy arent really explanations but excuses.

As for other plot holes/gaps in logic

- how come bumblebee couldnt detect the pretender

- why did the primes sacrifice themselves if they were the only ones who could stop him

- how does one become a descendent of a prime. How do TF's propogate / (i dont want bay to answer that one)

- Why did they place the matrix, the key to the sun eater, so close to the sun eater.

- why did sam and the warrior goddess decide to walk a few miles to prime, when bee was beside them and could have driven them in a matter of minutes

- what was bee doing from that point until he turned up later to protect sam

- why did simmons need to climb the pyramid to say fire on my co-ordinates. surely the great pyramids of giza's co-ordinates would be pretty well known

- why didnt they destroy the sun eater as opposed to devestator. The rason being egypt wouldn tlike it. They just entered egypt without permission, there was already a diplomatic incident in place.

- how did the population of mission city/la all get MIB mind zapped in order for the TF's to be a secret. likewise the citizens in Shanghai


Not all are plotholes, more of....just require re-watching again.

Bumblebee did detect the Pretender. He doused her with antifreeze and made her bump her head on the dashboard.

Why did they walk instead of take bumblebee..... Sam told him to be the decoy and draw the decepticons away. (Mostly Starscream since he was shooting at them) which is what he was doing until he showed up later also.

The MIB clearing the citizens minds thing....ehhh, it's like in the begining of the movie where they were posting the Shanghi video and got scooped. People that hadn't actually seen it could be thinking it's a conspiracy theory. (like people believe about 9-11) And the UFO thing. do they exist or no?

Your other points have some valid excuses, but in the end it's a movie.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:46 am

Tekka wrote:I'd hazard a guess that our friends have incorrectly labelled these very weak story elements as plot holes simply because there's no familiar common term for them that comes to mind. Make of that what you will.

I'm curious as to why you'd bring this up again though. :P Are you a glutton for punishment or just love fanning the flames? :KREMZEEK:


It's because the vast majority of people who comment on this don't know what they're talking about. While some elements of the film's stories are indeed weak they're a far cry from a plot hole as the term is defined (see the top of the first post).

shamone wrote:call them plot holes, call them gaps in logic they exist

Explanations like, rule of drama, rule of comedy arent really explanations but excuses.

As for other plot holes/gaps in logic


You've just demonstrated that you don't know the difference between a plot hole and a trope. Now, on to your examples...

- how come bumblebee couldnt detect the pretender


She's an infiltrator, and we know Autobots and Decepticons can shield their energy signatures at times.

- why did the primes sacrifice themselves if they were the only ones who could stop him


"The Fallen was stronger than his brothers..." is a fact Jetfire outright states. It took a Prime's power combined with that of a Seeker to kill him for good. The original Primes combined could only take him down long enough to hide the Matrix. These are well known facts you chose to ignore.

- how does one become a descendent of a prime. How do TF's propogate / (i dont want bay to answer that one)


Transformer reproduction is never clearly defined in any of the sattelite media or other continuities. The movieverse only elaborates on the fact that the AllSpark is involved to some degree, but all Transformers it produces are feral. The fanboy in me wants to speculate transferal of an aspect of a "parent" spark is required to give the Transformer sentience, but I'll give you half this one.

- Why did they place the matrix, the key to the sun eater, so close to the sun eater.


1. The Fallen was right there.
2. They couldn't kill him.
3. It was do or die, and Earth hung in the balance.

- why did sam and the warrior goddess decide to walk a few miles to prime, when bee was beside them and could have driven them in a matter of minutes


We argued back and forth about this before, but upon a recent viewing of RotF this one falls apart as a plot hole even more. Simmons and Leo with the Twins, and 'bee by himself distracted Star Scream. Sam and Mikaela took off on foot. However, it wasn't until the pair approached the ruined villiage that the battle lines were drawn. Until that moment it appeared to be a clear sprint to Optimus and the soldiers.

- what was bee doing from that point until he turned up later to protect sam


The fact he's clearly trying to stay hidden indicates he was sneaking.

- why did simmons need to climb the pyramid to say fire on my co-ordinates. surely the great pyramids of giza's co-ordinates would be pretty well known


Did you read my second post? For Simmons it's something his character would do. The guy's insane, remember? I thought two movies established this.

- why didnt they destroy the sun eater as opposed to devestator. The rason being egypt wouldn tlike it. They just entered egypt without permission, there was already a diplomatic incident in place.


You don't know how railguns work. Prototypes used in testing right now require complete barrel realignment after a single shot, a process that takes hours. Considering the Sun Harvester was still burried mostly, Devestator was the obvious threat. Also I'm not sure you understand the political fallout of destroying a histoic landmark without permission, especially with the Egyptians and the Pyramids.

- how did the population of mission city/la all get MIB mind zapped in order for the TF's to be a secret. likewise the citizens in Shanghai


As demonstrated, money talks or in this case prevents talking. Sam's parents would basically get anything they wanted to keep quiet, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the US government paid the entire city to keep their mouths shut. Though it's clearly becoming a problem considering how Galloway reacted.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby shamone » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:50 am

dirk2243 wrote:
shamone wrote:call them plot holes, call them gaps in logic they exist

Explanations like, rule of drama, rule of comedy arent really explanations but excuses.

As for other plot holes/gaps in logic

- how come bumblebee couldnt detect the pretender

- why did the primes sacrifice themselves if they were the only ones who could stop him

- how does one become a descendent of a prime. How do TF's propogate / (i dont want bay to answer that one)

- Why did they place the matrix, the key to the sun eater, so close to the sun eater.

- why did sam and the warrior goddess decide to walk a few miles to prime, when bee was beside them and could have driven them in a matter of minutes

- what was bee doing from that point until he turned up later to protect sam

- why did simmons need to climb the pyramid to say fire on my co-ordinates. surely the great pyramids of giza's co-ordinates would be pretty well known

- why didnt they destroy the sun eater as opposed to devestator. The rason being egypt wouldn tlike it. They just entered egypt without permission, there was already a diplomatic incident in place.

- how did the population of mission city/la all get MIB mind zapped in order for the TF's to be a secret. likewise the citizens in Shanghai


Not all are plotholes, more of....just require re-watching again.

Bumblebee did detect the Pretender. He doused her with antifreeze and made her bump her head on the dashboard.

Why did they walk instead of take bumblebee..... Sam told him to be the decoy and draw the decepticons away. (Mostly Starscream since he was shooting at them) which is what he was doing until he showed up later also.

The MIB clearing the citizens minds thing....ehhh, it's like in the begining of the movie where they were posting the Shanghi video and got scooped. People that hadn't actually seen it could be thinking it's a conspiracy theory. (like people believe about 9-11) And the UFO thing. do they exist or no?

Your other points have some valid excuses, but in the end it's a movie.


he did say to bee act as decoy. next shot sees starscream hitting the emp, then landing on the pyramid beside megatron

i figured that was bee protecting mikeala more than detecting the pretender. if he did detect her that leaves an even bigger gap in logic. he knew she was a decepticon, so bumped her head and doused her gree n fluid, and left it at that. I think i would rather have pee wee herman as my protector than bee

the mission city stuff would have worked if starscream hit an emp, wiping out cameras, phones, etc. then it would rely on peoples memory and personal statement. although if there was a large enough consensus then it would be hard to deny.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby shamone » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:00 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:
Tekka wrote:I'd hazard a guess that our friends have incorrectly labelled these very weak story elements as plot holes simply because there's no familiar common term for them that comes to mind. Make of that what you will.

I'm curious as to why you'd bring this up again though. :P Are you a glutton for punishment or just love fanning the flames? :KREMZEEK:


It's because the vast majority of people who comment on this don't know what they're talking about. While some elements of the film's stories are indeed weak they're a far cry from a plot hole as the term is defined (see the top of the first post).

shamone wrote:call them plot holes, call them gaps in logic they exist

Explanations like, rule of drama, rule of comedy arent really explanations but excuses.

As for other plot holes/gaps in logic


You've just demonstrated that you don't know the difference between a plot hole and a trope. Now, on to your examples...

- how come bumblebee couldnt detect the pretender


She's an infiltrator, and we know Autobots and Decepticons can shield their energy signatures at times.

- why did the primes sacrifice themselves if they were the only ones who could stop him


"The Fallen was stronger than his brothers..." is a fact Jetfire outright states. It took a Prime's power combined with that of a Seeker to kill him for good. The original Primes combined could only take him down long enough to hide the Matrix. These are well known facts you chose to ignore.

- how does one become a descendent of a prime. How do TF's propogate / (i dont want bay to answer that one)


Transformer reproduction is never clearly defined in any of the sattelite media or other continuities. The movieverse only elaborates on the fact that the AllSpark is involved to some degree, but all Transformers it produces are feral. The fanboy in me wants to speculate transferal of an aspect of a "parent" spark is required to give the Transformer sentience, but I'll give you half this one.

- Why did they place the matrix, the key to the sun eater, so close to the sun eater.


1. The Fallen was right there.
2. They couldn't kill him.
3. It was do or die, and Earth hung in the balance.

- why did sam and the warrior goddess decide to walk a few miles to prime, when bee was beside them and could have driven them in a matter of minutes


We argued back and forth about this before, but upon a recent viewing of RotF this one falls apart as a plot hole even more. Simmons and Leo with the Twins, and 'bee by himself distracted Star Scream. Sam and Mikaela took off on foot. However, it wasn't until the pair approached the ruined villiage that the battle lines were drawn. Until that moment it appeared to be a clear sprint to Optimus and the soldiers.

- what was bee doing from that point until he turned up later to protect sam


The fact he's clearly trying to stay hidden indicates he was sneaking.

- why did simmons need to climb the pyramid to say fire on my co-ordinates. surely the great pyramids of giza's co-ordinates would be pretty well known


Did you read my second post? For Simmons it's something his character would do. The guy's insane, remember? I thought two movies established this.

- why didnt they destroy the sun eater as opposed to devestator. The rason being egypt wouldn tlike it. They just entered egypt without permission, there was already a diplomatic incident in place.


You don't know how railguns work. Prototypes used in testing right now require complete barrel realignment after a single shot, a process that takes hours. Considering the Sun Harvester was still burried mostly, Devestator was the obvious threat. Also I'm not sure you understand the political fallout of destroying a histoic landmark without permission, especially with the Egyptians and the Pyramids.

- how did the population of mission city/la all get MIB mind zapped in order for the TF's to be a secret. likewise the citizens in Shanghai


As demonstrated, money talks or in this case prevents talking. Sam's parents would basically get anything they wanted to keep quiet, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that the US government paid the entire city to keep their mouths shut. Though it's clearly becoming a problem considering how Galloway reacted.



convenient that you use tropes as an excuse for gaps in logic, but not susprising

if the primes are the only ones who could defeat him, how could he be stronger. where is the logic in that. Six of them couldnt take him down, but one prime and a ruined seeker could.

starscream fired the emp, starscream was seen landing on pyramid beside megatron. how was bee distracting him exactly

if he was acting as decoy why did h sneak around. Surely a decoy is meant to be open not covert

so firing aat the machine at the op of the pyramid is destroying and desecrating. Shooting at the machine hanging onto the side of the pyramid isnt destroying and desecrating. The greater threat was the sun eater. Destroying devestator delayed the inevitable, in fact it didnt even do that as the sun eater was already exposed and ready to be used.

bribing a city, to quote the miz, really, really, REALLY, really

i will concede the matrix/sun eater proximity. the hiding signals, i dont remember it in the movie, but im sure you wouldnt make it up
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:19 pm

Attempting to say I'm covering up non-existant gaps in logic with tropes only shows further that you're selectively reading what I type, and selectively paying attention when watching these films. Just because you don't want to pay attention doesn't mean we didn't. You can't even remember certian aspects of the films.

And since I don't feel like quoting you I'll just list the responses:

1. Because when two Transformers (ala Jetfire/Optimus from Armada as opposed to Combiner teams) combine in any media, the power is multiplied, not added. That's basic knowledge. A Prime x a Seeker (who are nearly equal to Primes) is alot more strength than seven Primes independant of each other. One of these combinations in Beast Wars was nearly able to withstand a direct hit from the main gun of the Nemesis, which can level cities.

2. Because, last I checked, Starscream was among those Decepticons hunting them. He reported back to Megatron and took off to find Sam. Again, pay attention for once.

3. Because how are they supposed to know what happens when you shoot the thing? What happens when you disarm a bomb with a sledge hammer? 50/50 chance you make it stop working or set it off. This thing blows up suns.

4. I don't know or care who "The Miz" is. And no, this isn't a plot hole. Read up to us discussing "weak story elements." This is one of those. Again some basic knowledge.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby shamone » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:28 pm

Capt.Failure wrote:Attempting to say I'm covering up non-existant gaps in logic with tropes only shows further that you're selectively reading what I type, and selectively paying attention when watching these films. Just because you don't want to pay attention doesn't mean we didn't. You can't even remember certian aspects of the films.

And since I don't feel like quoting you I'll just list the responses:

1. Because when two Transformers (ala Jetfire/Optimus from Armada as opposed to Combiner teams) combine in any media, the power is multiplied, not added. That's basic knowledge. A Prime x a Seeker (who are nearly equal to Primes) is alot more strength than seven Primes independant of each other. One of these combinations in Beast Wars was nearly able to withstand a direct hit from the main gun of the Nemesis, which can level cities.

2. Because, last I checked, Starscream was among those Decepticons hunting them. He reported back to Megatron and took off to find Sam. Again, pay attention for once.

3. Because how are they supposed to know what happens when you shoot the thing? What happens when you disarm a bomb with a sledge hammer? 50/50 chance you make it stop working or set it off. This thing blows up suns.

4. I don't know or care who "The Miz" is. And no, this isn't a plot hole. Read up to us discussing "weak story elements." This is one of those. Again some basic knowledge.


im saying you are using tropes for certain excuses like

you are excusing a post 9/11 airport security letting a metal box that has noise coming out of it bumping around independently as a rule of comedy - yeh im selective

the combiners rule is stated where in this movie, or is that an assumption you are making.

well if that was the last time you looked, look at the scene again. Screamer doesnt go looking for sam at all. He hits emp and reports back to megatron

Seriously if you firing a rail gun with that much power, within the close vicinity of a sun eater, its likely to set it off, juts as much as if you were to aim directly at it. if its going to go off, from that range a direct hit or not probably wont make much difference.


its a gap in logic, or weak story telling or a plot hole. it could be all and one of those things. its not selective.
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby Capt.Failure » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:48 pm

shamone wrote:
Capt.Failure wrote:Attempting to say I'm covering up non-existant gaps in logic with tropes only shows further that you're selectively reading what I type, and selectively paying attention when watching these films. Just because you don't want to pay attention doesn't mean we didn't. You can't even remember certian aspects of the films.

And since I don't feel like quoting you I'll just list the responses:

1. Because when two Transformers (ala Jetfire/Optimus from Armada as opposed to Combiner teams) combine in any media, the power is multiplied, not added. That's basic knowledge. A Prime x a Seeker (who are nearly equal to Primes) is alot more strength than seven Primes independant of each other. One of these combinations in Beast Wars was nearly able to withstand a direct hit from the main gun of the Nemesis, which can level cities.

2. Because, last I checked, Starscream was among those Decepticons hunting them. He reported back to Megatron and took off to find Sam. Again, pay attention for once.

3. Because how are they supposed to know what happens when you shoot the thing? What happens when you disarm a bomb with a sledge hammer? 50/50 chance you make it stop working or set it off. This thing blows up suns.

4. I don't know or care who "The Miz" is. And no, this isn't a plot hole. Read up to us discussing "weak story elements." This is one of those. Again some basic knowledge.


im saying you are using tropes for certain excuses like

you are excusing a post 9/11 airport security letting a metal box that has noise coming out of it bumping around independently as a rule of comedy - yeh im selective

the combiners rule is stated where in this movie, or is that an assumption you are making.

well if that was the last time you looked, look at the scene again. Screamer doesnt go looking for sam at all. He hits emp and reports back to megatron

Seriously if you firing a rail gun with that much power, within the close vicinity of a sun eater, its likely to set it off, juts as much as if you were to aim directly at it. if its going to go off, from that range a direct hit or not probably wont make much difference.


its a gap in logic, or weak story telling or a plot hole. it could be all and one of those things. its not selective.


1. You admit your bias, not that it's a plot hole.

2. I didn't say it was. Watch some of the Transformers series other than the movies sometime then come back to this one.

3. Why don't you? I said I looked at the scene again. You are willfully saying that you don't need to yet you don't even remember how it went.

4. Right, because last I checked Sun Harvesters automatically go off when something shoots at something else in their vacinity. And you accuse me of gaps in logic? :roll:
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Re: Now You're Thinking With Plot Holes

Postby HoundimusPrime » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:10 pm

Motto: "If you can't join them, beat them"
Weapon: Fusion Cannon
You forgot to mention the BIGGEST plothole in ROTF:

When The Fallen gives his mention to the humans, nobody reacts, they all treat it like it's not a serious issue, there's no panic, no nothing. On top of that Sam just walks around with his hood up, and no one takes him; I would've much rather had a scene where a riot breaks out when someone sees Sam, Starscream lands in the city, and the Humans try give Sam to him, then Bumblebee and the Twins fight him off, that makes sense.
Image

Looks like Prime got into the energon goodies jar
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