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Tammuz wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Salazaar wrote:But still, God, Jesus, and all that Biblical stuff can neither be proven nor disproven.

Same with Evolution.

I'm agreeing with you here, so bear with me.

Shadowman Evolution is a proven phenomenon, much like gravity.

BUT TEH BIBLE SAYS GOD CREATED MAN LOL

[/joke]

evolution doesn't say he didn't, it just tells us how man was created

..what?...You mean man wasn't made from clay?

Fender Bender wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Salazaar wrote:But still, God, Jesus, and all that Biblical stuff can neither be proven nor disproven.

Same with Evolution.

I'm agreeing with you here, so bear with me.

Shadowman Evolution is a proven phenomenon, much like gravity.

BUT TEH BIBLE SAYS GOD CREATED MAN LOL

[/joke]

evolution doesn't say he didn't, it just tells us how man was created

..what?...You mean man wasn't made from clay?

No we came from apes the same way ants came from wasps

SuperiumPrime wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

SuperiumPrime wrote:Hey everyone,well i was thinking(like usual)about existance and life,god etc.And ive come to the conclusion that i dont believe in any man concieved religion or belief.It really makes my head spin that there is scientific fact to disprove all of that.I still believe in god though,just what if god left us?Theres so many horrible things happening in the world i cant believe an all powerful omnipotent loving being would let it happen.It leaves me to wonder...WHAT IS THE MEANING OF OUR EXISTANCE?:???:

I'm not going to tell you what to believe, or who to believe in. I will tell you this:

Our purpose and the meaning of our existence is this:

To live and love.

Life is a gift, whether or not you believe it was given to you by God, or some other Deity you might believe in, but it *IS* a gift, we're not entitled to it. So take that gift and do with it what you were supposed to do...live life to the fullest, and at least try and enjoy it.*

Some will say "Yeah, some gift. What about all those who suffer?", well I don't have that answer, and I can freely admit that. I can't speak for others, or God himself, that's between you and him.


Love is also a gift and we're supposed to share it with family, friends, etc. If you give it, it will be returned. Wouldn't that be better than fighting, hating, and being bitter all the time?

To live and love, that's our purpose and meaning of life.
It says in the Bible that God *IS* love, so I'd consider it a gift.*

Yes, before anyone says it, I know, I know...not everyone loves, and we don't always believe a person is deserving of anyone's love (and I won't tell you how to think or what to think. I'm even guilty of hating, so I have no room to talk.) I know I come across as a pompous, pious, holier than thou egotist sometimes, and I apologize for that. I don't intend to, and if anyone's offended by that, I really, really don't mean to. Sorry.

People complain about God, and his omnipotence, etc...well we're supposed to look at him as the ultimate parent. And there's a movie quote from "Batman Begins" that fits in here: "Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." which goes hand in hand with the old adage "God helps those who help themselves". Think about this, do your parents do everything for you? Of course not. They too let you learn on your own, including falling flat on your face. If you don't learn from it, you're doomed to repeat it. God does help and assist us, just as our parents do. Sometimes we're so self absorbed that we don't even pay attention to the gifts given to us. So all we do is complain and never take responsibility for our own screw ups. It's always easier to pass the buck.*

*= Directed to SuperiumPrime, not anyone else. Though I'm sure someone will find a way to come in and nitpick and tell me I'm wrong 'til I could puke coathangers. To be honest, I'm thoroughly sick of it by now. (Could we give it a rest for once? I just don't have it in me to fight or debate today...)

Thank you.

No problem, I hope I was some kind of help.

Autobot032, see my earlier point about about omnipotent gods being able to create the positive affects of evil without evil actually existing.

and if you don't feel like debating why post in a forum that is for debating?

Tammuz wrote:Autobot032, see my earlier point about about omnipotent gods being able to create the positive affects of evil without evil actually existing.

and if you don't feel like debating why post in a forum that is for debating?

Why must you always be combative? I cannot explain God to you, so I won't even try. You'd automatically say I was wrong, etc. You're entitled to your opinion and whatnot, but it's hard to deal with this because I believe in and accept God, and you seem to hate him and the idea of him. So it's pointless, eh? BTW.... he owes you nothing, and demanding him to answer you "just because" ain't gonna cut it.

BTW, I already gave my reasons in my post, plus I was trying to assist the O.P.

If you cannot explain something, that would mean that you do not understand it. Why subscribe to an idea that you do not understand? Unless of course you just meant that you cannot explain God to Tammuz.

Anyway, God is not something you accept since we have no empirical evidence for his existance. Thus there is nothing tangible (or, I guess, intangible, in a way) to accept. God is something you believe in. You only believe in things when you do not know that they are, in fact, in a certain way (and, well, when you're using a figure of speech and such).

Choosing to convince oneself that a thing, the existance of which is entirely unsupported, does in fact exist and is even that by which everything else is measured (reality, truth, etc) is rather on the irrational side. Convincing oneself that the same idea could not possibly be is equally irrational because, hey, we don't actually know.

Kjell wrote:If you cannot explain something, that would mean that you do not understand it. Why subscribe to an idea that you do not understand? Unless of course you just meant that you cannot explain God to Tammuz.

I meant that I cannot explain God to Tammuz. 1.) I don't have the words required to explain God, it goes much deeper than what the Bible even says. Without an actual relationship with God, you can't really understand where I'm coming from, and explaining my feelings doesn't quite encompass it. 2.) He's not willing to budge, I'm not willing to budge, so it doesn't make for an easy situation. No, I cannot explain it all to Tammuz, besides, it's not my place to. If he was truly interested, he'd put the bitterness and anger aside for even just 20 minutes and actually pay attention with an open mind. You can't learn something of this nature if you go in with a closed mind. (Especially if you choose to do so ahead of time.) You have to admit, it's kinda pointless if you know the other side isn't going to listen. And at this point, on the internet after having the crap kicked out of me in these "debates" because no one's willing to listen, I'm not going to try and explain God to anyone who doesn't already know him.

As I said before, I was addressing the original poster, I added the little side notes because I wanted to get my whole side of it out in the open before it turned into this mess. (And I was right, it did.)

Kjell wrote:Anyway, God is not something you accept since we have no empirical evidence for his existance. Thus there is nothing tangible (or, I guess, intangible, in a way) to accept. God is something you believe in. You only believe in things when you do not know that they are, in fact, in a certain way (and, well, when you're using a figure of speech and such).

Oh I know God is real, and that he's a part of my life. I have all the proof in my life, and how it directly affects me to prove (beyond my belief system) that he exists. Your words, or anyone else's won't change that for me, but it does anger me. I'm sick and tired of hearing about it. We get the point, some people don't like God, don't like to entertain the idea he exists, etc. That's fine for you, not for me. I don't ram him down your throat, don't ram your ideas down mine. I'm sick and tired of it, and I don't deserve it, nor do I need it. (AND BEFORE ANYONE SAYS "DEAL WITH IT, THIS IS A DEBATE" OR WHATEVER, DON'T BOTHER! I'M SICK OF THAT REASONING JUST SO YOU CAN BASH ME AND MY BELIEFS! SIIIICK OF IT!)

Kjell wrote:Choosing to convince oneself that a thing, the existance of which is entirely unsupported, does in fact exist and is even that by which everything else is measured (reality, truth, etc) is rather on the irrational side. Convincing oneself that the same idea could not possibly be is equally irrational because, hey, we don't actually know.

I'm not trying to convince myself of anything. I have my reasons why I believe in God, and even if it weren't for those reasons, I'd *CHOOSE* to believe in God. I have hope, and I'd like to keep it that way. Without God in my life, there are many times I doubt I could've made it through. None of that is irrational. I've come to notice that a lot of the people who naysay God and his existence, etc...try to use logic and whatnot, yet all their other posts on the boards reek of infantile mentality. It irks me, because they can be absolutely goofy and ridiculous one moment, but the instant you mention God, they're on the offensive with their coveted "logic". ("The best defense is a good offense")
Sometimes, that precious science doesn't always have an answer for everything.


However, all of this works for me, I can't (and won't) speak for others. That's between them and God to figure it out. (I keep repeating this last line, but no one seems to get it, so I'll drill it home if I have to.)

Autobot032, this is a Debate, it's somewhere where you will find people who will disagree with you and actually present arguments against yours, in fact that quite possibly the entire point of this place.

if you don't like that why are you here? if you know it'll make you sick, why do it?

oh and define irony;

You can't learn something of this nature if you go in with a closed mind

and even if it weren't for those reasons, I'd *CHOOSE* to believe in God

I suggest that you don't actually want a debate you just want to post you're opinion for the sake of posting, no supporting evidence, just the "i'm right, becuase." which any four year old knows it not a good reason.

and that's where Faith based arguments fall apart; a lack of reason, another word for lacking reason is "irrational". so please leave your irrational arguments at the door, and use some logic to tear my arguments apart.


EDIT: I do love that i'm getting told I'm angry, the last Irrational Christians told me i was too detached and unemotional. which is just another example of a lack of rationality, as an argument's validity does not depend on emotional state of the proponent; 2+2=4 no matter how unhappy it makes you.

Like Salazaar said, you can neither prove nor disprove God.

But you (Autobot032) say, "I have all the proof in my life, and how it directly affects me to prove (beyond my belief system) that he exists."

I'd like to know this proof. Don't get me wrong, I believe in God myself. (Kinda, I'm no atheist, but I'm not devout) I'd just like to believe a little more.

Also, this is the Philosopher's Forum, we require proof to go with every fact.

Shadowman wrote:Like Salazaar said, you can neither prove nor disprove God.

But you (Autobot032) say, "I have all the proof in my life, and how it directly affects me to prove (beyond my belief system) that he exists."

I'd like to know this proof. Don't get me wrong, I believe in God myself. (Kinda, I'm no atheist, but I'm not devout) I'd just like to believe a little more.

Also, this is the Philosopher's Forum, we require proof to go with every fact.

Require? I owe you NOTHING. I believe, and that's my right. That is a fact. If you can't handle the fact(s), then that's on you. It's a fact that you don't entirely believe, I won't battle a fact.

Deal with it.

I'm sick and tired of this dogpiling crap and God hatred. All the Atheists confuse me, because they hate God, they hate the idea of him, but here's the problem...if he doesn't exist as they say, then why hate him? Seriously? I mean it's a valid question. If you honestly hate God, or the idea of him, or the idea that someone believes he exists, etc...what's the point? You're wasting your time, it's like fighting a shadow, it's impossible and can't be done, and it's a waste of time.

Aren't you validating God's existence by hating him, the idea of him? Wouldn't you do better to just ignore it all (like you say to do with Trolls and trollish behavior.*) and just move onto some other crusade?

I don't expect you to explain your side of it, or show me proof of existence or not, and I will do the same.

I think we should just agree to disagree and call it done. In fact, I am. I'm not posting another thing in this thread. It's not worth a ban. I know what I know, you know what you know, leave it at that.

*= not saying God is a troll, or anything like that. Just trying to give a point of reference we can both work with. And if anyone tries to say otherwise is just a trouble maker and flame bait, and just isn't worth it.

This is a forum made for discussion and debate.

Underline those last two nouns about a thousand times, for that means you should post here expecting to be questioned and asked to give evidence for your opinion. It may sound like people are asking much, but it is not unlike any other subject of debate:

You have given no proof of _______ -- provide it.

Insert "Global Warming"-- no one gets upset.

Insert "God"-- World War III.

While the turmoil created is understandable, as people are basically questioning what you rely on for daily happiness and peace of mind, it must be understood it is no more deserving of any animosity than any other demand for evidence or questioning of a statement in a forum devoted to such. If such responce is not desired, then don't post.

And, as a side, I'd not people can't actually hate a being they recognize as nonexistent, but can hate the incorporating religion and what it does.

Chill out. If you don't want to give proof, then get out. Now. This forum isn't about Logical Fallacies (Which is all you're giving) it's about making valid arguments, which you have yet to give.

The reason people don't believe in God (I don't say "Hate" because I happen to know some atheists, and not one of them ever said they "Hate" God), is usually because Mr. Benevolent happened to let some personal tragedy--Or perhaps a series of tragedies--happen to them.

Some things hurt people differently. Someone dying could cause someone to be so deeply hurt, that they wonder why God won't help them, or why he did what he did. Hell, I've been down that road before, but I'm still Agnostic.

It may confuse you--Hell, it confuses me too sometimes!--but there's a reason for everything.

But for the love of Christ, don't just say "I owe you nothing." This forum isn't about rights. It's about proving what you believe.

So, I'd like some proof, please. Either that, or just get out of this thread.

As my own answer to the question...

Diddly Squat, ('mu' if you've happened to look into eastern religion) for it is an answer to a question in itself wrong, for 'absolute purpose', as you seem to ask for doesn't exist. It's a concept first postulated by Plato, who thought of it as 'essence,' like the essence of knife is to cut, and hammer is to nail. But it is in itself applying language, something used to transmit knowledge by grouping things in general similarity together, as an absolute. I'd say nothing in itself has any actual purpose, for purpose is not absolute, but derived from motive, which derives itself from perspective, something in itself relative.

The purpose something was created for does not necessitate absolute purpose, as a hammer can be used as a paperweight as well as a driver of nails, though it was probably formed for other means. Purpose all depends on who's observing the hammer.

If created purpose means what we seem to be formed for, that is to propagate DNA and further our goals as the living organisms homo sapien sapien. Willed purpose, what we make for ourselves, can be varied, but generally follows the same pattern for the most of us because instinct is so ingrained. Find what you want to do, and do it, is all I can say.

(Note these can include anything generally ascribed to a social animal as us, including making friends, finding a mate, starting a family, being on the general being curtious and beneficial to others, and fulfilling curiousity.)

The Avatar of Man wrote:And, as a side, I'd not people can't actually hate a being they recognize as nonexistent, but can hate the incorporating religion and what it does.

Bingo.

I have no problems with Jesus or God. It's his fan club that annoys the hell out of me.

Granted, there are those Christians who are awesome, two of my best friends are Christians, never had a problem with them.

It's the douchebags like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jack Thompson who flat out say "if you don't believe in God, you're a sinner and going to hell" among other things. The people like that, who are so closed minded in their beliefs they aren't willing to look beyond whatever it is I'm getting at.

Now, Ab32. This is a place for discussion, religion is a very huge topic here, as there is always something to discuss. Yes, "god" seems to be on the crap-receiving end many times. But it's not because people hate him.

It's because if you say "God" people are going to instantly know what you're talking about. But we're not just discussing God here. We're talking about all divine beings. Thor, Zeus, God, Aphrodite, Athena, Ares, Hermes, Org Du Jahad, Hecate, Apollo, Ra, Bast, Baal.

In todays society, a huge chunk of people know who God is, that he's a divine being. However, if you ask who Thor is, people may think of the comic character first. If you ask who Hecate is, people will blink and start drooling with a blank stare on their face.

God is said, because it's instantly recognizable.

Also, beliefs will never be enough to prove to someone that a deity exists. What you've seen, will be proof enough to you. But won't hold up to any type of scrutiny.

It's the same as me walking up to a Zoologist and saying "I saw a unicorn yesterday, they exist."

And Tammuz, sorry I didn't reply sooner, alas for real life. But I know what you meant. If you were omnipotent, you could do anything you want. So yeah, god could do all that stuff, show the good without the actual evil, and all that.

However, wheres the fun in that?

Senor Hugo wrote:If you were omnipotent, you could do anything you want. So yeah, god could do all that stuff, show the good without the actual evil, and all that.

However, wheres the fun in that?

That sounds a bit sadistic though, doesn't it?

The Avatar of Man wrote:

Senor Hugo wrote:If you were omnipotent, you could do anything you want. So yeah, god could do all that stuff, show the good without the actual evil, and all that.

However, wheres the fun in that?

That sounds a bit sadistic though, doesn't it?

The Avatar of Man wrote:

Senor Hugo wrote:If you were omnipotent, you could do anything you want. So yeah, god could do all that stuff, show the good without the actual evil, and all that.

However, wheres the fun in that?

That sounds a bit sadistic though, doesn't it?

If I was God, believe me, there would be a LOT more bisexual women in the world.

Senor Hugo wrote:However, wheres the fun in that?

probably somewhere from knowing he's succesfully protected his loved ones from war, rape, torture, Famine, and disease? but I'm not that God, so what do i know?

People who are too busy searching for the meaning of life are being left in the dust by the people who are making their own.

Brakethrough wrote:People who are too busy searching for the meaning of life are being left in the dust by the people who are making their own.

I cannot calculate the amount of win in that post. That makes a hell (pun intended! za-za-za-zing!) of a lot of sense!