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ive touched on this in previous threads, but i wonder what everyones thoughts on the subject are...

the way i see classics/generations/neoG1 whathaveyou, the lines aethetics are to invoke the spirit of G1, giving us the posability and detail we desired in our old favorites. however they have not given us perfect representations, rather modern updates. and you cant say that the spirit is lost in the updates.

when i see 3rd party toys like mania king, hegemon, or toyworlds bii (to name a few) i feel dont really have a proper place to go. while they look almost perfect to their G1 counterparts, they now look alienated standing next to other neoG1 characters. maybe alienated is a strong word, but i feel these figures almost belong in a league of their own.

personally i love my united megatron, henkei bb, and plan on getting the asia galvatron. the only 3rd party figure listed above im actually considering buying is mania king as im just that much a fan of the character. but the more i think about it, asia galvy will probably be standing on the neoG1 shelf.

but people still want perfect representations right? isnt that what MP's are about? and ever since MP10 theyve been nailing everything right on the head.

i understand there have been cries for better version of what we already have. all the hate for classics galvy and megs is why MK and hegemon exist. its just my opinion, but i have no problems with them and want to keep the aethetics of all the figures in line as much as i can. and im postitive some day we'll see an MP galvatron and updated megatron which will scratch my itch for "perfect" versions.

I much prefer evocation of the G1 toy/show model through a modern update over perfect replication with new tech.

I collect both lines (CHUG and MP) and I agree 100% that 'Classics' or whatever you call it is anything but a G1 show accurate line, with the only ones that really come close to that being the unofficial third party toys, most of which do indeed look out of place on a Classics shelf.

That's why most (though not all, as I do have Hegemon, although he is standing right next to my beautiful United Megatron, who I actually prefer) of the third party Classics stuff I buy are ones that fit into a Classics collection better rather than standing out like outdated looking sore thumbs. That's why I bought SXS' 'Gears' rather than iGears' and why the third party combiners I buy are the ones that are stylistically different from MP/the cartoon (e.g. Hercules, FP's Stunticons, Ares etc.).

If I want 100% show accurate representations of the characters, I look to Takara's MP line save for the FT Quakewave I bought, though even he will be replaced if Takara does one of their own.

I never bought into the whole "neo" concept as characters being modern takes of new characters. They were designed by Hasbro to be marketed to kids 5 and up. Todays kids wont find 1980s cars, jets, boomboxes, tape decks, or microscopes cool, so hasbro had no choice but to do away with their original alt modes. In my honest opinion, I believe "neo" only exists to generate better sales by attracting todays kids with what THEY THINK is cool. They dont want an 80s clunker. They want what they see on TV or in the streets. Anybody who thinks "neo" is a concept of modernization is just sugarcoating the kiddie appeal aspect and fooling themselves. Of course this is my personal opinion. Im not trying to offend anyone who believes the "neo" concept was done with adult collectors in mind. Granted many 3rd parties have rolled with the concept and created a huge following of adult collectors who dont want 80s alt modes. Thats why we see stuff like SXS Gears and the Igear Raptor squad which try to replicate a more Hasbroish look in both modes. But at the end of the day it all started because hasbro knew todays kids just wouldnt think a VW Beetle or a Lamborghini Countach is cool enough to play with. I personally have no problems displaying my Hegemon, Mania King, Artfeather Bumblebee, or IT mini bots with my so called "neo" figures made by Hasbro. If they could all be as cartoon accurate as the MP line but in classics scale, I would be super happy. But I cant have everything I want so I put up with the neo alt modes and try to keep in mind that hasbro makes these classics lines for kids first, and adult collectors are an afterthought. Besides I display them all in robot mode anyways.

Rated X wrote:I never bought into the whole "neo" concept as characters being modern takes of new characters. They were designed by Hasbro to be marketed to kids 5 and up. Todays kids wont find 1980s cars, jets, boomboxes, tape decks, or microscopes cool, so hasbro had no choice but to do away with their original alt modes. In my honest opinion, I believe "neo" only exists to generate better sales by attracting todays kids with what THEY THINK is cool. They dont want an 80s clunker. They want what they see on TV or in the streets. Anybody who thinks "neo" is a concept of modernization is just sugarcoating the kiddie appeal aspect and fooling themselves. Of course this is my personal opinion. Im not trying to offend anyone who believes the "neo" concept was done with adult collectors in mind. Granted many 3rd parties have rolled with the concept and created a huge following of adult collectors who dont want 80s alt modes. Thats why we see stuff like SXS Gears and the Igear Raptor squad which try to replicate a more Hasbroish look in both modes. But at the end of the day it all started because hasbro knew todays kids just wouldnt think a VW Beetle or a Lamborghini Countach is cool enough to play with. I personally have no problems displaying my Hegemon, Mania King, Artfeather Bumblebee, or IT mini bots with my so called "neo" figures made by Hasbro. If they could all be as cartoon accurate as the MP line but in classics scale, I would be super happy. But I cant have everything I want so I put up with the neo alt modes and try to keep in mind that hasbro makes these classics lines for kids first, and adult collectors are an afterthought. Besides I display them all in robot mode anyways.

Not offended at all (though I appreciate your disclaimer), but I am curious:

If Classics is comprised of just kiddie toys, why homage 80's characters? If the line is catered to kids, wouldn't HasTak come up with new characters to draw kids in? Unlike the Unicron Trilogy, Animated, and Prime, which had cartoon media backing, the Classics line has comics, arguably a more adult medium. There's certainly a difference there... or you would say there isn't?

I would never say that Classics doesn't have kid appeal, but I'm not sure you could say its primary target is kids. Especially in recent years.

Well honestly I feel the reason Hasbro uses the same G1 characters is because they work. Take Disney for example. No matter how many new characters Disney creates, there will always be mickey and friends. They might make mickey "neo" by dressing him as n astronaunt, but he is always gonna look like good oi mickey. Its the same thing with transformers. Hasbro knows most adults want the countach and the beetle, but kids arent having it. Im not saying they arent geared towards adults too. But in my opinion its always been about the kids. I just think kids are the drive behind the neo concept of alt modes. Maybe if it was a 3rd party who did it before hasbro, I would feel differently.

I see what you're saying, X, but respectfully disagree. I was under the impression the new alt modes had more to do with licensing costs, but I'm sure it's a combination of things, kid appeal included.

BTW, have you seen BBTS' sale on Impossible Toys stuff? The mini-bots are just $20, the set of 9 is $150. I know it's OT, and I'm not sure how many you've bought already, but wanted to make sure you saw that.



Back to the thread topic, I do collect both Generations & Masterpiece, but they each serve different purposes. Generations figures have an "old school toys, new vibe" while MPs have a "new toys, old school vibe." What I mean by that is this:

Generations have the playability of the original 80s toys (often more), and are in fact what I would consider toys. I also look at Generations as the Marvel Universe of Transformers; updated amalgamations that try to capture the essence of that character, en masse. MPs are new in service of the old... that's the only way I can really put it. I find Generations slake my thirst for fun, while MPs hit the notes of nostalgia.

megatronus wrote:If Classics is comprised of just kiddie toys, why homage 80's characters?

i agree with this statement.
however if youre looking at the first few waves of classics i can see where one could get the notion of "kiddie" toys (im looking at you nerf megatron). but when cyclonus and company hit shelves it got considerably grown up. i can imagine the seeker mold being much different if it were released further down the line instead of one of the first out of the gate.

shajaki wrote:

megatronus wrote:If Classics is comprised of just kiddie toys, why homage 80's characters?

i agree with this statement.
however if youre looking at the first few waves of classics i can see where one could get the notion of "kiddie" toys (im looking at you nerf megatron). but when cyclonus and company hit shelves it got considerably grown up. i can imagine the seeker mold being much different if it were released further down the line instead of one of the first out of the gate.

I 100% agree that the line has certainly evolved in terms of scope, engineering, and purpose, and I believe your assertion that it started as a kids line is probably accurate. Thankfully, no longer!

Also, the Seeker mold.

Doesn't stop me from owning a bajillion versions of it, and I'm glad we have some modern substitutes (FE/FOC molds, Armada Starscream, etc.), but still...

megatronus wrote:I 100% agree that the line has certainly evolved in terms of scope, engineering, and purpose, and I believe your assertion that it started as a kids line is probably accurate. Thankfully, no longer!
Also, the Seeker mold.
Doesn't stop me from owning a bajillion versions of it, and I'm glad we have some modern substitutes (FE/FOC molds, Armada Starscream, etc.), but still...

ha! totally. the seeker mold has its shortcomings, but i own almost every official version (and 10 or so KO's). honestly i think my favorites are the coneheads. for some reason when i got ramjet i just couldnt put him down.

shajaki wrote:

megatronus wrote:I 100% agree that the line has certainly evolved in terms of scope, engineering, and purpose, and I believe your assertion that it started as a kids line is probably accurate. Thankfully, no longer!
Also, the Seeker mold.
Doesn't stop me from owning a bajillion versions of it, and I'm glad we have some modern substitutes (FE/FOC molds, Armada Starscream, etc.), but still...

ha! totally. the seeker mold has its shortcomings, but i own almost every official version (and 10 or so KO's). honestly i think my favorites are the coneheads. for some reason when i got ramjet i just couldnt put him down.

Coneheads are wonderful. They just seem... more substantial than the standard seeker I think. I'm a big fan of Thrust and his detachable fans. So glad I got both of the Asia Exclusive Seeker 3-packs when they went on sale. They're beautiful.

I'm sad to say I don't own a single Classics Seeker. I kinda wish they'd made that mold a Voyager so it would scale well in jet mode with the deluxe cars. It's still a nifty looking mold though, and I do intend to get at least 1. I'm thinking it would look really good in "realistic" F15 colours.

On topic, I personally prefer modern updates to perfect representations. Simply put, a lot of the older designs are really, really dated, and some were stupid to start with (Megatron turning into a gun is a bit like if Darth Vader turned into his own lightsaber to be wielded by a Storm Trooper- unbelievably retarded). Also, some of the robot mode character models were just plain ugly- Ironhide and Ratchet were bland piles of boxes, Gears looked like a deformed munchkin, and the Constructicons...ugh!

So yeah. Modernization all the way baby.

Delta Magnus wrote:I'm sad to say I don't own a single Classics Seeker. I kinda wish they'd made that mold a Voyager so it would scale well in jet mode with the deluxe cars. It's still a nifty looking mold though, and I do intend to get at least 1. I'm thinking it would look really good in "realistic" F15 colours.

you dont own one classic seeker? my dog has three classic seekers.

Delta Magnus wrote:On topic, I personally prefer modern updates to perfect representations. Simply put, a lot of the older designs are really, really dated, and some were stupid to start with (Megatron turning into a gun is a bit like if Darth Vader turned into his own lightsaber to be wielded by a Storm Trooper- unbelievably ******). Also, some of the robot mode character models were just plain ugly- Ironhide and Ratchet were bland piles of boxes, Gears looked like a deformed munchkin, and the Constructicons...ugh!

sure the old guys are dated now, but it was simpler times. and i cant believe you said that about the constructicons! they are easily my favorite sub group and id be hard pressed to call them dated. have construction vehicles changed much in the last 30 years?

shajaki wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:I'm sad to say I don't own a single Classics Seeker. I kinda wish they'd made that mold a Voyager so it would scale well in jet mode with the deluxe cars. It's still a nifty looking mold though, and I do intend to get at least 1. I'm thinking it would look really good in "realistic" F15 colours.

you dont own one classic seeker? my dog has three classic seekers.

Delta Magnus wrote:On topic, I personally prefer modern updates to perfect representations. Simply put, a lot of the older designs are really, really dated, and some were stupid to start with (Megatron turning into a gun is a bit like if Darth Vader turned into his own lightsaber to be wielded by a Storm Trooper- unbelievably ******). Also, some of the robot mode character models were just plain ugly- Ironhide and Ratchet were bland piles of boxes, Gears looked like a deformed munchkin, and the Constructicons...ugh!

sure the old guys are dated now, but it was simpler times. and i cant believe you said that about the constructicons! they are easily my favorite sub group and id be hard pressed to call them dated. have construction vehicles changed much in the last 30 years?

What he said. Except my cat has 4 seekers.

With the Constructicons, I was talking about their cartoon character models in robot mode. Their toys are (AFAIK) fun little things with die-cast goodness and infinitely "vroomable" vehicle modes. But in the cartoon, they made the robot modes look...kinda uninspired. Some, like Scrapper and Hook, got away fairly lightly. Mixmaster looks OK, apart from his silly hat, and Long Haul doesn't look too bad (aside from the fact his legs should be empty shells seeing as they're just halves of his bucket, and with his alt mode, he should be able to carry his teammates in his dump bucket). Scavenger looks dreadfully uninspired, and Bonecrusher...Bonecrusher is just a green box man. I think he'd look better if his treads were black (or purple like Scavenger's) but he still looks kinda...dull, really. And Devastator looks...kinda unfinished really. Like they got the basic shape down and called it a day without bothering to add any detail or make him look like he actually had any visible parts from his components. I suppose it didn't help that a lot of the Constructicons' appearances were done by AKOM though.

Of course, they were basing the cartoon designs off of the toys, but they could have done a better job I feel.

And that's what I mean about modernization being a good thing with Transformers. If you took Neck Breaker (TFC's Not-Bonecrusher) and gave him the exact colour layout of the cartoon, he'd look awful. I reckon if you gave the original toy and character model Neck Breaker's colour layout, he'd look a lot better.

And yeah, I am sad to say I don't own a single Classics Seeker- in fact I don't think I have any CHUG figures. I was considering getting Skywarp to complete my Seekers, but unfortunately my Starscream and Thundercracker are voyagers (I have Armada Starscream and 2007 movie Thundercracker...I did most of my collecting as a kid, OK?) so the deluxe Skywarp would be much too small next to them. I'm considering getting Animated Skywarp actually, as he's the same size as my other 2 Seekers, looks to be a decent toy, and then I'll have 3 Seekers each with completely different molds. Also, Animated Skywarp's "Ha! I pushed you down a flight of stairs!" grin should perfectly complement Armada Starscream's "Heh, heh, heh" smirk (incidentally the best headsculpt ever) and movie Thundercracker's "I am surrounded by idiots" frown (which he has despite his face being made of greebles).

Delta Magnus wrote:Of course, they were basing the cartoon designs off of the toys, but they could have done a better job I feel.

well, that and it was an 80's kids cartoon. i think they put way more effort into than they had to. the premise alone is pretty impressive. but as far as animation and design goes, remember the first scene where the autobots all transform one after another (sorta) for the first time? it was phenominal!

and remember: designs could have been worse. much worse. compare the G1 S1 toys to the show characters. ironhide and ratchet didnt even have heads. i think the cartoon designers did a pretty good job.

shajaki wrote:

Delta Magnus wrote:Of course, they were basing the cartoon designs off of the toys, but they could have done a better job I feel.

well, that and it was an 80's kids cartoon. i think they put way more effort into than they had to. the premise alone is pretty impressive. but as far as animation and design goes, remember the first scene where the autobots all transform one after another (sorta) for the first time? it was phenominal!

and remember: designs could have been worse. much worse. compare the G1 S1 toys to the show characters. ironhide and ratchet didnt even have heads. i think the cartoon designers did a pretty good job.

One thing that I'm noticing from the old cartoon, is that they have really respectable sized cast... Back then, in kids shows the teams were rarely more then 5 good guys and 5 bad guys... but some of those early ones had a LOT more people just standing around or transforming for group shots...

As much as I like to mock them mercilessly for the simplistic designs and the miscolored art... they had a lot going on there...


My philosophy is kind of an odd one... I want perfect representation with very little 'updating.' I want them to look like I remember them. Downside, as my third or fourth favorite franchise, my memory is REALLY spotty. I think the Combiner Wars Superion is darn near perfect... but people have pointed out changes and updates that I never owned/noticed before... A lot of classics look pretty spot on, but on closer inspection are 'off' somewhat... If I don't notice, it doesn't bother me!

It's one of the things I hate so much about the movie designs. They don't look right. They may be modernized, they may be updated.. they may even be the same 'characters' I know... but I don't recognize them and I don't like them.

This is not to say the cartoon is #1 design... Most of the time the cartoon was simplified or dumb with a lot of their designs... but there should be a solid evoking of the G1 designs with the modern technology/design.

Ratchet... is tough for me. I love the old 'ambulance-van' but I'll admit that ambulances don't really look like that anymore. Megatron... I LOVE the G1 design for the robot, but the gun?!? Doesn't make a LOT of sense for the toy... and has zero playability really. I can MAYBE accept the tank as long as the robot looks like the gun one... I don't know yet... Still mulling that one over

Soundwave?! I don't know about him. I LOVE the Cassette deck, but that is SOOOOOOO dated that it's anarchic now. I haven't seen an alt mode I like better though...

So really each figure is a case by case scenario. it's hard to have hard and fast rules over what does and doesn't fit in my collection.