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I look at this movement among collectors called scalpers and I'm not a fan, but something struck me while reading both sides of a scalpers post.

I look at collecting as a hobby and not much more, but of late I've had to start looking at it in the business sense and I've come to see a strong negative impact that scalpers have had on the market. There are elements in toy collecting that run parallel to comic collecting that many might find interesting. I hope to address both sides to show that scalping, that the negative out weights the positive.

Scalping as a business makes sense in the short term. In the short term a person can turn a decent profit from scalping because the scalper holds the, at the time, hot item. When the item is in demand then it makes sense to buy low and sell high. Therefore you make the most profit for the short term. As long as the scalper is willing to move to the next high demand object he will stay in the black. As long as there are cheap services to sell the item through, the scalper doesn't even have to worry about overhead or storage. He's free to move on to the next fad as fast as possible. But for it to be really profitable a scalper has to be faster than his competitor and buy all of the items of one kind in the area. He also has to have a large area to work in. In doing this he can turn a mere 10% profit into a rather profitable business. What a great way to work for yourself.

The drawback to this is that scalping creates a exaggerated price that only lasts for the short term. People that buy the mass of items create the shortage. This shortage creates the hunt for that high demand of the figure. This shortage is what allows them to sell their items for a high price. Once the scalper has sold all of his high price items then he has made a small profit, but the value of the item has gone down. Why? Because the market is now flooded with the items the few held on to. This is also contrary to the desire of a collector.

There are as many reasons to collect as there are people. The main collector I'm addressing is the one that buys the item and holds onto it for whatever reason and hopes to sell it several years down the line and profit from that sell. The scalper is this collector's worst enemy. Not because they're trying to make a profit. Not because they're making a shortage. It is because the scalper floods the market and drives the value of the collected down. A collector who buys a piece from a scalper can guarantee that item will not be worth the price he paid for it down the line. Truth is, it will probably never be that same value again. The reason for this is because the scalper prohibits the purchase of these items to the very people that will make them valuable. See only short term value is created through demand. Value in the collectors market comes from the rarity of a quality piece. If the only people collecting something is an adult, then how is a good piece valuable? How can there be a range of different qualities and different values if they're all the same or close to the same? Think about it this way. Toys from thirty years ago are rare because kids have played with them, broke them, made stuff out of them, lost them and thrown them away. That's why they're so valued and chased after. Imagine if everyone that had a Jetire back in 1985 never opened it, stored it perfectly, and kept it in near mint. Would they be so valued today? Isn't that what we want as a collector is the hope that our piece will become more valued?

Now the parallel to comics comes in. Comics used to be a very valuable collectible. It still is in golden and silver age comics. Modern era comics on the other hand the value stinks. A few years ago modern comics were very valuable as well. I remember when you could sell a Spawn #9 for about $90. Now you're lucky if you can get $12 out of it. There are many other comics that share the same story. Why? What happened? Well, there were people out there that decided they were going to make a profit. They bought loads of special editions, one shots, ash cans and everything else. They held these back and made it impossible to get a hold of these newer issues. Heck, some of the comics became valued at about $100 to $200 dollars they were so hard to find. Well, after a couple of years the people that bought these comics decided they were going to sell them all. They packaged them up in plastic sold them to Wal-Mart as "Collectible Comics." Now anyone could buy a Spawn #9 and a couple of other comics for about $15. Think about that. They bought the comics for less than dollar (because they bought so many) and then sold it in a three pack for $15 nationwide. It's amazing how similar collectible markets are isn't it?

For the scalper a way of doing business has to change. He has got to do what one smart woman did only a little while ago. Buy one or two of the item and hold on to them for extended period of time. Collecting market can be valuable, but only if you have rare and valuable objects. This woman bought her son one to play with and one or two of each toy to store away. Thirty years later she sells the entire mint collection for a $1,000,000. True it means having storage space, but those rare items will sell for far more if they're actually rare. They have to be rare in not just limited numbers produced, but also in limited quantities of actually good pieces. The profit margin for such pieces are far larger than the hundred or two-hundred you could get from five to ten pieces. Heck, even holding on to those one or two pieces would gain a much larger profit margin over a shorter period of time if scalpers didn't try to buy and sell as many in as short a time as possible, if they just held on to them for a year or two. Heck if scalpers became collectors, then they could sell one or two items on a regular basis for what they they were selling 10 to 15.

Scalping for short term is a good way to make money, no one can deny that. Scalping does take a toll on the market without a doubt. It can not be said though that scalping doesn't harm anyone. So what can be done? The biggest thing is to not buy from a scalper. Refuse to pay anything other than the suggested retail. Boycott is such a nasty word, but if you want to see your collectibles go up in value, do you really have a choice? For scalpers if they want to turn a profit, that's worth having, then they need to think in long term investment and not just short term turnover.

Scalpers have feelings too ...

Seriously, it happens. I really don't understand why people get so worked up over this whole scalpler issue, to me, there's more important things to worry about in life than whether you get a plastic toy or not.

And i'm sure more than half the time the scalpers end up stuck with their own stock anyway because they choose to be greedy.

knightedfeline wrote:Now the parallel to comics comes in. Comics used to be a very valuable collectible. It still is in golden and silver age comics. Modern era comics on the other hand the value stinks. A few years ago modern comics were very valuable as well. I remember when you could sell a Spawn #9 for about $90. Now you're lucky if you can get $12 out of it. There are many other comics that share the same story. Why? What happened? Well, there were people out there that decided they were going to make a profit. They bought loads of special editions, one shots, ash cans and everything else. They held these back and made it impossible to get a hold of these newer issues. Heck, some of the comics became valued at about $100 to $200 dollars they were so hard to find. Well, after a couple of years the people that bought these comics decided they were going to sell them all. They packaged them up in plastic sold them to Wal-Mart as "Collectible Comics." Now anyone could buy a Spawn #9 and a couple of other comics for about $15. Think about that. They bought the comics for less than dollar (because they bought so many) and then sold it in a three pack for $15 nationwide. It's amazing how similar collectible markets are isn't it?

The main problem with 90's comics is that speculators drove up the hype and the comic companies followed. Speculators would buy multiple copies of a single issue in hopes it would be valuable in the future. But that's not how supply & demand works as there are MILLIONS of Spawn #1 and only a handful of Action Comics #1 in existence. Comic book companies didn't help much because they pumped out crap and speculators would buy it.

There were reports during this time that some comics weren't actually hard to find. Shops would horde them in a back room, mark them up, display one copy as a "rare" item, sell it and repeat. There was only the appearance of shortages.

Once speculators couldn't move these "valuable" comics, they left the industry and left shops and companies with now worthless inventory. This forced shops to close and the industry went into a large slump.

Granted I haven't factored in how many toys are actually produced but it doesn't seem like toy companies are producing toys in the millions as people aren't ordering them that way. In this case, certain figures might be actually scarce compared to the 90's comics example.

Maybe it's just my experience but hot toy items that are being sold at outrageous prices are brought down in price later. Or maybe I just got lucky and I haven't bought that many toys recently. It just sucked waiting and shopping for a decent price on something.

I used to get worked up about the scalping issue, now I'm starting to see it as something that simply happens.

The point here is that it's a short-term thing instead of an actual business? Sure. If you do the scalping-boogie once, that's all it is. A one-time thing for easy money. If you're willing to try and keep up with scalping by regularly buying up stock, you might as well just become a business like any other (online) store.

RhA: That's my point. I was saying that it is a business and one that is profitable, but that it's one of those businesses that, "cuts off its own nose despite its face."

Supreme Convoy: A much more accurate statement than I made a correct. I'm also trying to show that the speculators of then are the same as scalpers now, because they're doing the same thing. It's a modern day version of the carpet bagger.

Burn: I'd say the reason you don't understand, "the reason people get so worked up" is because you don't have any emotional attachment to what you're getting and selling. Collecting toys is one of the most emotional types of collecting out there. The majority of collectors I've talked to talk about, "How it feels to get the one item and open it and put it on your shelf," or "How good it felt that my child was getting into the same thing I did as a kid." Toy collecting is heavily driven by emotion because it is about a toy, and a toy is a child's gateway to understanding emotion and the bigger world. For adults its about being able to make their lives a little simpler by being able to go to that quiet place in our minds and make the $#!# we go through that much easier to deal with. Scalpers make it that much harder for collectors who do it for the joy.

i harbor no ill will towards someone if they get there hands on a htf figure(s) and sell them.

what i find more irritating is the comments from people who go on ebay and amazon and act shocked and dismayed when the mp rodimus they want is 120+ or a more recent example unicron for 2-300$ i mean seriously are you really that suprised? if you have to resort to these sites your better off waiting prices inevitably come down THEY ALWAYS DO.

the box for unicron is friggin huge and most scalpers will not want multiples in their house for much longer.
imo fans/collectors are the reason for the market effect of scalping. if peole were more patient they would eventually find these items.but the fact of the matter is many in the fandom will always be impatient and instances like the one at sdcc with rodimus will just continue to get worse and worse.because everyone just HAS TO HAVE IT AND NOW.

alternator77: I think you're right. I do see people's impatience as being a major issue. That's why fans have got to ban together, make friends and be friendly with one another. It's a lot easier to be patient when you've got friends being patient with you.

I haven't heard of the incident at SDCC with Rodimus, please fill me in.

Burn wrote:Scalpers have feelings too ...

Seriously, it happens. I really don't understand why people get so worked up over this whole scalpler issue, to me, there's more important things to worry about in life than whether you get a plastic toy or not.

And i'm sure more than half the time the scalpers end up stuck with their own stock anyway because they choose to be greedy.

mods,is their a way we can create one singular gigantic scalper thread. because these scalper threads are too many to count here. their is nothing really unique about all these scalper threads. they all read the same. perhaps we can even make it fun for those who like to talk about scalping by making a incentive. like trying to create the worlds biggest scalper thread that gets the most replies.

mods,is it possible for you guys to merge all the existing scalper threads on this seibertron site into one big scalper thread.

or just delete all the scalper threads here on seibertron.
then create a new scalper thread,put a sticky on it,have it be on the top of the transformers toy forum page. & say someting like "this is where you guys can discuss all your scalper stuff." & say "please don't create anymore threads about scalping related stuff".

+1 on the impatient part. but that is economics 101. supply and demand. i have been wanting to get a fansproject bruticus.....but im NOT willing to pay 200 bucks for brut and then another 200 bucks for explorer/munitioner. but some ppl are.......ill just wait until the bubble bursts and prices drop.....IT ALWAYS DOES! look at the housing market.....i waited....and bought my house for 150k when the last person bought it for 350k! just like my sports car(toyota supra)...at one point it was worth 70k for a used supra! i waited and got mine for 20k when the bubble burst.......just be patient.

deathy: I'm new here and this was the second scalper thread I had seen. For me this is a fascinating look at both sides.

donnie_707: I think you're misunderstanding supply and demand a bit. The scalper is creating a false demand. The supply is there, but the scalper increased the demand by making the supply scarce. If left on the shelves, there wouldn't be as high of a demand. You're right there are many situations where you can wait for the price to come down and it will. To use your analogy, if it was something like cars, it was as if there were several large car dealerships that were buying 90% of new cars in the US, from other dealerships, and hording them away, net really showing how readily supply is, selling a few to only those who could pay their over inflated prices and then slowly releasing them at their leisure onto the market. This would indicate that there's enough money out there for everyone that wanted a new car had more than enough resources to get it. The supply and demand you're talking about with houses and cars is very different. There's no sudden boom of people to create higher demand. There's no sudden expansion of wealth and extra gas for people to afford the sporty car. When it comes to housing and cars there's going to be a steady amount of demand because there's a steady growth population.
The reason the market for these burst is because there were too many people who controlled the money, who had no connection to the local area where the housing was, who were demanding much more suited to the higher end of the market instead of the middle or lower end, and found there weren't enough people to pay inflated prices because the people with the money don't really have an idea as to how much the actual value of the property in the area is worth. The reason the person before you paid that much for his property was because he was told "That's the only possible price for this property, because that's what all these others are selling for." Well, that's always Bull. Value for housing is fairly steady, it only goes up when and if there's a sudden housing shortage due to a sudden population boom. The population for the US has raised steadily since the sixties. So the people controlling the money created a false impression of the value of an item and boom, it failed. Value of a property is based on the formula of job and wage availability plus location + wealth of area / (population income based upon wealth of the majority of people in area). The bubble collapsed because the wealthy purposefully overestimated the population income, by using the average instead of the mean and the regional instead of the local.
Also understand that price does not always go down. It depends upon many factors. So many in fact I can't sit here continue to make this response longer.

What I'm trying to do here is look at both sides as thoroughly as possible. The more I look at it, the more I see the morally wrong. Ethically, I can see what scalpers want and their perspective. In the beginning of this article I thought of it as "It just happens, no big." However I've come to the damage. Scalpers are, as my roommate put it, "Like a bully that takes your toy and makes you pay to get it back." I am still open to understand more of the scalper's point of view, because it can't be as simple as I've seen so far.

is there an example of what is hot on the scalping list these days? and maybe a list of known scalpers would help. but most of the high priced transformers i see are just the ones that are not in production anymore.

donnie_07: Last I've seen have been the new classics, Wheelejack and Scourge. I'm not sure about the rest right now. I'm in scalper territory I know that because the stores in area will have 8-10 of one item one day and I'll come in the next and they're all gone. Right now Thundercats, Hot Wheels and Star Wars are also on the list. I know it's scalpers because the ones that I keep hearing people want like Ahsoka, Echo, Cheetara, Panthro, and the aforementioned are never in stock, even though you can tell they've just put in a new case. Others including myself have seen at least eight people in the area that come in and buy a cartload of the Hot Wheels, Transformers and others. I don't have a TRU close by so I can't give you info on what's leaving their shelves quickly.

knightedfeline wrote:deathy: I'm new here and this was the second scalper thread I had seen. For me this is a fascinating look at both sides.
.

we've got a few hasbro MP Rodimus threads,that started out as regular threads, then got turned into scalper bashing threads.

We've got a few Target leafoot threads that started out as normal threads. until the scalper discussion took over.

We've got a few Amnazon unicron threads that started out regular. then it became a scalper discussion thread.

We have all those Last wave RTS/Generations threads that have scalper discussion in it.

Regarding what you wrote in your last sentence. these scalper threads are not a fascinating look at both sides. the scalpers are not here to defend themselves,thus it's a one sided bashing free for all.

these scalper threads don't accomplish anything. the scalpers are still gonna scalp if they feel like it.

if scalping is really that big of an issue that it arises in almost every thread.....maybe it is worth talking about it. then maybe, some form of action can be taken to try and prevent scalping. why should we as collecters, have to pay more then the retail from the second market(ala ebay. amazon)

donnie_707 wrote:if scalping is really that big of an issue that it arises in almost every thread.....maybe it is worth talking about it. then maybe.

Some here don't like scalper discussion being bought up in threads that didn't start out as scalper threads.

some of us actually like to stay on topic & to discuss what the original thread starter planned for his thread if it didn't start out as a scalper discussion thread.

For the threads that start out as scalper threads. we don't need that many being created here. as they all discuss the same thing as the end result is scalpers getting made fun of & bashed.

donnie_707 wrote:then maybe, some form of action can be taken to try and prevent scalping. why should we as collecters, have to pay more then the retail from the second market(ala ebay. amazon)

whether some like or dis-like the scalpers they are not doing anything wrong nor illegial. if it's okay for wall street stock investers to buy low & sell high. then it's okay for the scalpers to buy low/retail & sell high.

No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

no one is entitled to everything.

if something is popular then ofcause theirs always going to be people to take advantage of this.

deathy wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

says the guy with close to 1000 posts on a toy forum........

donnie_707 wrote:

deathy wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

says the guy with close to 1000 posts on a toy forum........

So do you have a point or are we a-trollin'?

donnie_707 wrote:

deathy wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

says the guy with close to 1000 posts on a toy forum........

This matters why? It is quite conceivable that one could have ten thousand posts and not own a single Transformer. I haven't bought one in years, but still come here to discuss the fiction and franchise.

And even if you own a thousand Transformers, it still doesn't make them food.

donnie_707 wrote:

deathy wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

says the guy with close to 1000 posts on a toy forum........

sir,why did you go out of your way to bash me?

I just added you to my ignore "foes" list. so I can no longer see any of your replies nor threads you create here.

I'm not here to grab the flame bait & ruin threads.

i'm here to try to discuss the TF related topics. and do my best to treat every seibertron.com member with respect & digity.

Please, there is no reason for tempers to flair here. I'm coming to see this is a very touchy and emotional subject. I'm sure donnie_707 was just trying to point to a perceived irony. Let's just leave it at that.

deathy: As I was saying there's nothing wrong with it, ethically. Morally it's very questionable.

But if they were investors, they'd be the short therm that have to pay heavy fines for early withdraw. That's the thing about stocks, is they're regulated. (They used to be more regulated, but that's a different subject.) Toy sales aren't regulated. The only way to regulate toy sales would be if the stores set limits on how many can be purchased by a person at a time. If I were to take the analogy further, I'd have to go into investing in commodities market and how that works, because toys would be considered commodities. And scalpers may be doing something illegal. Scalping, if done as a means of income is a business. If it's a large enough business then it needs to be registered. It depends on the amount they sell and the amount they make. If they don't register the business then they are subject to heavy fines and possible jail time. It depends upon the state they're in and the rules and regulations for businesses in that state.
No, no one is forcing, but, "man does not live by bread alone."
Yes, there will always people who take advantage of others. History is full of examples, carpetbaggers come to my mind.
No, no one is "entitled" to anything. The only thing people are entitled to is to die. However is scalping is not about entitlement, it's about profit. It's about profiting at the expense of others.

As a community, when it comes to what can be done, it comes down to standing united. We have got to learn again what our parents and grandparents and great grandparents knew, "United we stand, divided we fall." We here share a love of toys. This is something important that unites us. No, it is not all that we have in common, but it is a great place to start. After what's better than sharing our hopes and our dreams?

wtf....i post ONE sentence and now im bashing AND trolling? dam you TF guys are sensitive. but staying on topic, i guess you guys LIKE paying double the amount for a toy you could have bought for retail

F Prime wrote:

donnie_707 wrote:

deathy wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

says the guy with close to 1000 posts on a toy forum........

This matters why? It is quite conceivable that one could have ten thousand posts and not own a single Transformer. I haven't bought one in years, but still come here to discuss the fiction and franchise.

And even if you own a thousand Transformers, it still doesn't make them food.

and this matters because MAYBE just MAYBE you are in a thread that is talking about toys.......is that conceivable to you? yeesh dude. chill out a bit. i sure enough dont like paying 2x, 3x, 4x the amount for something that should have been sitting on the counter at retail.....but OH since you dont collect transformers, YOU wouldnt understand......so quit trolling in this thread please.

donnie_707 wrote:

F Prime wrote:

donnie_707 wrote:

deathy wrote:No one is forcing anyone to buy anything. their just plastic toys. we don't need these things to survive like food,water,housing & air.

says the guy with close to 1000 posts on a toy forum........

This matters why? It is quite conceivable that one could have ten thousand posts and not own a single Transformer. I haven't bought one in years, but still come here to discuss the fiction and franchise.

And even if you own a thousand Transformers, it still doesn't make them food.

and this matters because MAYBE just MAYBE you are in a thread that is talking about toys.......is that conceivable to you? yeesh dude. chill out a bit. i sure enough dont like paying 2x, 3x, 4x the amount for something that should have been sitting on the counter at retail.....but OH since you dont collect transformers, YOU wouldnt understand......so quit trolling in this thread please.

Whoa whoa whoa....settle down, d00d. I am not trolling; I have been participating on this board for some time now and have never even been accused of trolling.

Sorry I caused such an overreaction. But let me clarify, hopefully in a manner that will allow a calm, pleasant conversation not an accusation of trolling and meaningless insults.

My point was that your post sounded argumentative towards Deathy, which seemed like unnecessary trolling. If that was not your intent (which, by your reaction, I am guessing was not), I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Now, on to my point. I hate scalping. I don't know if Deathy does or not. However, regardless of his stance the number of posts he has made in a Transformers forum has nothing to do with his feelings on Scalping. As I pointed out, it is quite possible to have a thousand posts and not be a collector. I would hope that is not a problem. That is it....my only point.

And I am a collector. What I said was that I had not bought one in years. Two years to be exact. I still have 4 complete Botcon collections and several masterpiece figures. I collected solid from 1984 until 2009 and have several hundred pieces, many MSIB. I think I still count as a collector. I can understand your assumption otherwise, but it was quite incorrect.

Sorry I caused a spazz..was not my intent. But..please...don't jump so quickly to insult. I wasn't judging you. Just pointing out that the perceived irony was not really ironic. This forum is not solely about buying the toys and even if you don't buy you can still have intelligent opinions regarding scalping.

F prime: understood

im just trying to look at the subject in hand from a collectors point of view. but scalping doesnt seem to be a big issue at my location. im pretty sure it still happens tho. or else there wouldnt be a thread about it every other week.