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Counterpunch wrote:RE: Prime's war strategy and "brutishness"

Deal with this hypothetical scenario in a manner you find to be appropriate. Here is what you need to know:

- You and I are enemies. We have irreconcilable differences.
- I plan to destroy you and everything you love and cherish.
- I will not relent, ever.
- If you defeat me and show me mercy, I promise that I will smite you for it at the earliest opportunity.
- If I can not defeat you outright, I will prey upon people and things you care about without pause, without mercy, and without thought for consequence.
- If you imprison me, I will work the system until everyone believe I am reformed and when I am freed I will kill you and everything you care about. I will NEVER EVER stop.

Please tell me your scenario for victory with the understanding of who your opponent now is.

You realise of course that several of those points require precognitive powers.

Besides, even if his single-minded slaughter of Decepticons is justified in a 'kill or be killed' sense, it doesn't change the fact that the Prime in Bayverse is STILL a remorseless and violent killer. The only reason he's a 'good guy' is because he's allied with the humans. To those not under his banner, he's a nightmarish villain.

Other incarnations of Prime somehow managed to be heroes and still fight off the 'Cons. This is the only one who makes quips before executing defenceless foes (Demolisher), delivers one-liners before AND after tearing heads apart (Grindor), and being really unnecessarily violent (face-ripping).

Well, that's definitely a different and much shittier ending than the book. I was so pumped for this movie, but now I'm a bit deflated. I'm still gonna see it, but I can't believe that's how Megatron ends up. The main reason for me to see this was to see him return as the true leader he was always supposed to be, given a badass alt mode and weapon. And in the end it gets wasted. How sad.

Counterpunch wrote:

Tekka wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Tekka wrote:The problem is not the method in which the fighting and killing is done, but the lack of character exposition which leads to this line of thinking.

It's not necessary to explain that via exposition. An army from outer-space is teleporting in with their tentacle monster.

Hesitation is death.

If Prime has to be a rattle-craddle murder machine to save me from outer-space tentacle monsters and genocidal robots, then get out the way because me and my buddy Prime are killing them all.

It absolutely is necessary. I can't speak for anything that happens in Dark of the Moon, as I haven't seen it yet. But a little development in that way in both the original movie and ROTF would have gone a long way preventing the needlessly brutal Autobots frame of mind from ever occurring.

Show us why Prime has to fight the way he does. Show us why the Decepticons have to be slaughtered to the last. Explain to us that Cybertron is beyond saving and make Prime's lack of concern mesh with our knowledge. Make us feel the pain of the Cybertronian war, and show us why the Autobots have to put aside their good nature for the sake of survival.

Are you not paying attention to what happened in RotF?

They wanted to destroy our planet for gas money (essentially).

SERIOUSLY. What more do you need to know? They ALL have to die because if they don't, assuredly we ALL will die.

Also, what is this about Autobots being needlessly brutal? How exactly do you prefer your killing? Would it be better if they did a little prayer afterwards? Or perhaps pushed all the Decepticons out of windows?

Here, if you want to criticize Prime, it'd be better to go with this: Optimus Prime is a traitor to his own race. He'd rather see an under-evolved race survive than his own people. Megatron and Sentinel are right to try and secure their own future. Prime is a weakling who can't even protect his own world.

That's legit. Saying that the Decepticons should be handled with kid-gloves and a bill of rights is not legit.

"That's legit. Saying that the Decepticons should be handled with kid-gloves and a bill of rights is not legit."
Please don't put words in my mouth. And the criticism you just brought up for me, was something I'd already covered. Don't treat me like I'm below some level of understanding.

I don't want to focus on the very simplest level of the plot. "Stop them or we die." That may be enough for you, but it's not what I would have imagined coming from a decidely more adult movie. I can't break it down any further for you than I already have.

If Prime doesn't care about one of his comrades dying, I want to know why.

If he doesn't care about his planet being doomed, I want to know why.

If he has to go against everything he believes in and takes a life from enemy that can no longer fight back, I want to know what changed him into that person.

That's all. It's about telling the story of the characters, not defeating the monster of the day.

Cheesinator wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:RE: Prime's war strategy and "brutishness"

Deal with this hypothetical scenario in a manner you find to be appropriate. Here is what you need to know:

- You and I are enemies. We have irreconcilable differences.
- I plan to destroy you and everything you love and cherish.
- I will not relent, ever.
- If you defeat me and show me mercy, I promise that I will smite you for it at the earliest opportunity.
- If I can not defeat you outright, I will prey upon people and things you care about without pause, without mercy, and without thought for consequence.
- If you imprison me, I will work the system until everyone believe I am reformed and when I am freed I will kill you and everything you care about. I will NEVER EVER stop.

Please tell me your scenario for victory with the understanding of who your opponent now is.

You realise of course that several of those points require precognitive powers.

No, they don't because like Megatron, I am telling you those things ahead of time.

Besides, even if his single-minded slaughter of Decepticons is justified in a 'kill or be killed' sense, it doesn't change the fact that the Prime in Bayverse is STILL a remorseless and violent killer. The only reason he's a 'good guy' is because he's allied with the humans. To those not under his banner, he's a nightmarish villain.

He's a nightmarish villain to my enemies? That's the best news an army could hope to hear. Fu ck the Decepticons.

Other incarnations of Prime somehow managed to be heroes and still fight off the 'Cons. This is the only one who makes quips before executing defenceless foes (Demolisher), delivers one-liners before AND after tearing heads apart (Grindor), and being really unnecessarily violent (face-ripping).

Only because cartoons wouldn't let Prime get real and because his villains were cartoon villains who didn't kill humans. The examples are not even comparible.

Prime didn't make a 'quip' before killing the human murdering invader from space Demolisher. He gave him last words and then put him out of his misery after Demolisher destroyed parts of Beijing.

As for tearing heads apart...he was in a 3 on 1 fight to protect humanity at the cost of his own life and you presume to tell him how he should kill?

Like this...but not like that...be nicer...feel guilty about winning against these murderers who 10 minutes ago were going to dissect your friend?

Why do you hate humanity?

Face ripping? Off of that former Prime who violated their most sacred tenants? Who betrayed his own brothers? The Fallen did not deserve a face. It was like being stripped of his rank.

Strap on your balls fellas, Optimus is right to kick the shit out of these death bringers from space.

He could have not worked with the government. He could have gone rogue. He could have done any number of things to allow the war to spread and affect more people, but he has always acted in humanity's interest and you all should better recognize that and stop agonizing over how he's getting the job done.

Tekka wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Tekka wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Tekka wrote:The problem is not the method in which the fighting and killing is done, but the lack of character exposition which leads to this line of thinking.

It's not necessary to explain that via exposition. An army from outer-space is teleporting in with their tentacle monster.

Hesitation is death.

If Prime has to be a rattle-craddle murder machine to save me from outer-space tentacle monsters and genocidal robots, then get out the way because me and my buddy Prime are killing them all.

It absolutely is necessary. I can't speak for anything that happens in Dark of the Moon, as I haven't seen it yet. But a little development in that way in both the original movie and ROTF would have gone a long way preventing the needlessly brutal Autobots frame of mind from ever occurring.

Show us why Prime has to fight the way he does. Show us why the Decepticons have to be slaughtered to the last. Explain to us that Cybertron is beyond saving and make Prime's lack of concern mesh with our knowledge. Make us feel the pain of the Cybertronian war, and show us why the Autobots have to put aside their good nature for the sake of survival.

Are you not paying attention to what happened in RotF?

They wanted to destroy our planet for gas money (essentially).

SERIOUSLY. What more do you need to know? They ALL have to die because if they don't, assuredly we ALL will die.

Also, what is this about Autobots being needlessly brutal? How exactly do you prefer your killing? Would it be better if they did a little prayer afterwards? Or perhaps pushed all the Decepticons out of windows?

Here, if you want to criticize Prime, it'd be better to go with this: Optimus Prime is a traitor to his own race. He'd rather see an under-evolved race survive than his own people. Megatron and Sentinel are right to try and secure their own future. Prime is a weakling who can't even protect his own world.

That's legit. Saying that the Decepticons should be handled with kid-gloves and a bill of rights is not legit.

"That's legit. Saying that the Decepticons should be handled with kid-gloves and a bill of rights is not legit."
Please don't put words in my mouth. And the criticism you just brought up for me, was something I'd already covered. Don't treat me like I'm below some level of understanding.

I don't want to focus on the very simplest level of the plot. "Stop them or we die." That may be enough for you, but it's not what I would have imagined coming from a decidely more adult movie. I can't break it down any further for you than I already have.

If Prime doesn't care about one of his comrades dying, I want to know why.

If he doesn't care about his planet being doomed, I want to know why.

If he has to go against everything he believes in and takes a life from enemy that can no longer fight back, I want to know what changed him into that person.

That's all. It's about telling the story of the characters, not defeating the monster of the day.

Fair enough.

Tekka wrote:It's about telling the story of the characters, not defeating the monster of the day.

Unfortunately, you're looking for a dramatic film in an action film. With a cast of characters so large and a heavy focus on explosions et al something has to give. Unfortunately, you're probably in a minority when it comes to character development being high on the list. Let's be honest, no one is going to this looking for nominations for Best Screenplay. It's a summer blockbuster. Whether or not you're complaints are valid (and having not seen the film I cannot say, though I have an inkling) I think they are misdirected.

NemesisMonkeySupreme wrote:

Tekka wrote:It's about telling the story of the characters, not defeating the monster of the day.

Unfortunately, you're looking for a dramatic film in an action film. With a cast of characters so large and a heavy focus on explosions et al something has to give. Unfortunately, you're probably in a minority when it comes to character development being high on the list. Let's be honest, no one is going to this looking for nominations for Best Screenplay. It's a summer blockbuster. Whether or not you're complaints are valid (and having not seen the film I cannot say, though I have an inkling) I think they are misdirected.

Thing is, I'm not looking for it because I know I won't find it. I'm not totally ignorant, ya know. =(

I just wanted to bring up, what I thought, was a legitimate criticism of the characters of the Transformers. Which has been my one major gripe over the course of these movies. There simply isn't enough time devoted to them and to explain why they do the things they do. Or in some cases, why they do horrendously stupid things like urinate on humans or dance around houses.

So, me and my brother won tickets to the Transformers DOTM Adelaide premiere and I just got back from it. First thing, the movie is actually good. Better than the first, a thousand times better then the second. Then I would like to say I SPOTTED SKIDS AND MUDFLAP, Michael Bay, give me the money. Now.

OK, so interesting spoilers are:
-It opens with an (awesome) scene during the Cybertron war
-It IS Que and Dino, not Wheeljack and Mirage and Dino has an Italian accent while Que has British
-Notable deaths are Megatron, Sentinel Prime, Soundwave, Barricade, Laserbeak, Shockwave, Ironhide and Que. Brains and Wheelie are hard, because they are in a Decepticon ship that crashes and are never to be seen again, but the scene seems more played for comedy than dramatic effect, leading me to believe they didn't die.
-Skids and Mudflap ARE in one scene, driving into NEST with the Autobots like in the trailer
-Barricade is actually in it quite a bit, but is still mostly a background character
-There are only three Dreads, Crankcase, Hatchet and Crowbar, but they all have Crankcase's toy's alt-mode
-Shockwave only speaks in Cybertronian and Topspin doesn't speak at all.
-The ending is different to the adaptions. Optimus is a mega dick. Megatron offers him a truce and Optimus responds by PULLING HIS HEAD OFF! The final scene actually seemed sort of rushed, like there should have been more and it just never happened.

OK, so yes, that's about it for new spoilers that we hadn't known before hand.

The main downers of the movie would have to be:

-The ending change appears to be last minute. The sequence of events happens the same as a novel, the only difference being Optimus' reaction to Megatron's proposed truce being to kill him. It felt awkward and considering how quickly the movie cut to the credits, it seems it was changed to save time.
-There's slopping editing around the twin's absence As I said before, they can clearly be seen driving with the other Autobots as they return to NEST and it is painfully obvious that there was a scene cut immediately after Ironhide's death (where the twin died in the novel). Bumblebee is seen falling to the ground, presumably after being save by the twins as parts of what looks like Mudflap fall round him.
-Shockwave. He doesn't really do much, nor does he talk English, the only understandable thing he says is "Optimus" during his first appearance. While he does shoot at things a couple of times, he spends the majority of his scenes standing around looking pretty. It is his death seen in the trailers, being punched by Optimus, who then proceeds to shoot his gun at the piller and rip open his neck.

Tekka wrote:

NemesisMonkeySupreme wrote:

Tekka wrote:It's about telling the story of the characters, not defeating the monster of the day.

Unfortunately, you're looking for a dramatic film in an action film. With a cast of characters so large and a heavy focus on explosions et al something has to give. Unfortunately, you're probably in a minority when it comes to character development being high on the list. Let's be honest, no one is going to this looking for nominations for Best Screenplay. It's a summer blockbuster. Whether or not you're complaints are valid (and having not seen the film I cannot say, though I have an inkling) I think they are misdirected.

Thing is, I'm not looking for it because I know I won't find it. I'm not totally ignorant, ya know. =(

I just wanted to bring up, what I thought, was a legitimate criticism of the characters of the Transformers. Which has been my one major gripe over the course of these movies. There simply isn't enough time devoted to them and to explain why they do the things they do. Or in some cases, why they do horrendously stupid things like urinate on humans or dance around houses.

Granted (and I didn't mean to imply any ignorance or stupidity). But you just seem so shocked at the lack of characterization when you admit it lacked in previous films. Realize that my tongue is planted firmly in cheek when I ask, "Did you really believe the director/crew apologies for past failings and expect anything else?"

I had no expectations at all. I'm just voicing how I believe things could have been better, in my oh so humble opinion.

I.e. Not screaming to the heavens, "OMFG I CAN'T BELIVE THEY DIDN'T PUT THIS AND THIS AND THIS INTO THE MOVIE! I DEMAND A REBOOT!"